East Germany making a strong case for horseshoe theory in 1962
Posted Jan 12, 2019, 1:29 PM UTC
37358
From an English-language Berlin Wall propaganda pamphlet designed for foreign distribution. Here’s a link to the whole thing:
https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/wall.htm
67
We no longer wanted to stand by passively and see how doctors, engineers, and skilled workers were induced by refined methods unworthy of the dignity of man to give up their secure existence in the GDR and work in West Germany or West Berlin.
Also known as money.
83
That website has a whole trove of Nazi/East German propaganda for those interested in that sort of thing
24
I think it's worth pointing out that some countries build walls to keep people out while others build them to keep people in.
26
And both is equally reprehensible.
14
I think keeping people in is a little more messed up...
15
And if you're trying to escape a poverty-stricken authoritarian regime for freedom and opportunity, does it really make a difference which government is laying the bricks that keep you trapped in misery?
8
Ah, but don't you know that walls to keep people from freedom and prosperity are only bad when they're built by the unfree society?
Actually, I might start asking Trumpists whether the Berlin Wall would have been okay if the Bundesrepublic built it to stop communist infiltration, except I'm not confident in their answer.
22
At the Berlin Wall last week. Walls work.
20
How could you not be confidant? The answer is obvious, they would support it, I can't even imagine a way that they would oppose it.
Hell, some of em are running around supporting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
1
Regarding east Germany and the Horseshoe theory, you might find the case of Odfried Hepp interesting. He was a member of the terrorist right-wing Wehrsportgruppe Hoffmann and trained in the PLO. Later, the east German Stasi helped him to escape law enforcement to east Germany.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odfried_Hepp
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrsportgruppe_Hoffmann
This is the only source in English about him that I could find: https://books.google.de/books?id=recDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT55&lpg=PT55&dq=nva+odfried+hepp&source=bl&ots=HXVYQPq8yl&sig=Nt9QbK15874TZBm6ahDtkjltlvc&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCtMig0ejfAhXJJlAKHfFgCZUQ6AEwFHoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
18
[deleted]
6
More like circle theory. There is no political power that wants to abolish borders.
11
laughs in schengen area
49
The Schengen area has borders. Otherwise we would have many more refugees.
3
The only circle theory there is you thinking that the venn diagram of "wall" and "border" is a circle.
25
You're forgetting about the Deep State NWO.
8
i do
7
I do, too, but nobody here on this reddit sub has political power.
3
Anarchists wave from the bottom left corner
3
Not building walls =/= abolishing borders.
3
Weren't they shooting people who tried to leave the east? I've heard west Germans could come and go but I've also heard people who tried to escape the east were shot at.
7
[deleted]
6
Yes, they did shoot some people who tried to cross. Somebody else may have a better source but History.com says nearly 80 people were killed this way
2
Not to be a dick but 80 really isn't that many. People make it sound like there was murder every day. Thanks for link
2
[removed]
1
[deleted]
1
LMAO I'm pretty sure it's a sign of aggressiveness when someone builds a fence around YOUR property
1
"American welfare is for American people" is ironically both Left wing argument and Right wing argument.
"Immigrants take our jobs" is ironically both Left wing argument and Right wing argument.
This is exactly why liberals (libertarians) despise both socialism and nationalism as they're both collectivist ideologies. For this reason, Marine Le Pen in France ran on jingoism, when she was coming from socialist party. American Leftists call themselves liberals, but do they have any understanding of liberal values?
-1†
Being anti-immigrant is very rare when it comes to left wingers. Usually, they complain more about them being exploited than being job stealers.
6
I’ve never seen leftists identify with the term “American” unironically, and I don’t know any leftists that are anti-immigrant so I’m not sure I agree with your first two points.
Regarding your question, American leftists generally don’t consider themselves liberals. While all socialist theory was developed in opposition to liberalism, the earliest American example that comes to my mind is Phil Ochs, a 1960s protest singer, who considered himself a left succdem and wrote a song making fun of liberals. Even today, leftists try very hard to dissociate themselves from liberals e.g. r/ShitLiberalsSay being a sub for leftists to mock liberals and liberalism.
3
I don’t know any leftists that are anti-immigrant
That's because modern Democratic party is a weird amalgamation of Leftists and liberals. Trust me, the anti-immigrant sentiment exists among a lot of Leftists, but they'd not speak anything publicly from the fear of branded as racist. Give them a little bit of comfort and they'll whisper in your ear. If you look at the original Democratic party 20-30 years, especially 50-60 years ago, they were outspoken against immigration. Bernie Sanders come from those Leftists who argued, "It is unfair that Americans have to compete against foreigners." Ironically, this is the same argument made by Ku Klux Klan members for not wanting to compete with black people, and hence they introduced the law of Minimum Wage. After all, the original purpose of minimum wage laws was to attain labor aristocracy and keep blacks, women, immigrants unemployed and out of the workforce.
This is exactly why liberals support laissez-faire capitalism and "personal responsibility", but good luck explaining that to Americans. After all, supporting immigration is the ideology of Republican party. Also, did I mention that a lot of Leftists *cough cough Bill Maher* oppose immigration arguing that immigrants (hinting at Muslims and Indians) don't really follow liberal values?
1
[deleted]
1
Theres a difference between building a wall to keep people in and building a wall to keep people out. Under extreme circumstances the latter is warranted.
I dont have a problem with the idea of a wall, I have a problem with Trump’s proposed wall.
- It is a waste of money
- There already is a some kind of barrier in certain areas
- Most illegal immigrants overstay their visas
- Most immigrants help the economy so I’d rather just change the system to make it easier for them to come “legally”
-1†
Horseshoe theory is bunk.
The political spectrum is based on the size and scope of the state. The more right you go, the less government you want, and the more left you go, the more government you want.
Hence libertarians want less government than conservatives, and ancaps want less government than libertarians. On the other end, social democrats want more government than neoliberals, and socialists want more government than social democrats. Note that this is what we actually observe in the real world.
Fascism is just another branch of socialism. Mussolini (who was a life-long socialist), and Hitler both controlled their respective economies to the same extent as Lenin or Mao did. All four of these examples wanted the most powerful state possible. There is no "horseshoe", these motherfuckers were all on the same end of the political spectrum.
-45
This is such a remarkably ignorant comment that it beggars belief.
29
Check out his comment history for an exploration of sociopathy and poor education.
20
Hitler both controlled their respective economies to the same extent as Lenin or Mao did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#Privatization_and_business_ties
28
Nazi Germany was a corporatist state.
1
Wow, looks like some leftist cuck edited that page. Here's what it used to say:
During the 12 years of the Third Reich, government ownership expanded greatly into formerly private sectors of strategic industries: aviation, synthetic oil and rubber, aluminum, chemicals, iron and steel, and army equipment. The capital assets of state-owned industry doubled during this same period, whereby the nationalization caused state-ownership of companies to increase to over 500 businesses.[40] Further, government finances for state-owned enterprises quadrupled from 1933 to 1943.[41] Albert Speer in his memoirs remarked that “a kind of state socialism seemed to be gaining more and more ground” among many Nazi party functionaries, warning that Germany’s industry was becoming “the framework for a state-socialist economic order.”[42] Earlier, Hitler had restated his economic intentions in a 1931 interview with Richard Breiting, singling out the 13 point plank of the National Socialist 25-point program, which he declared “demands the nationalisation of all public companies, in other words socialisation, or what is known here as socialism.”[43]
and
Generally, National Socialists had a history of hostility towards the business community, the profit motive, and "unearned income". The Viennese-born economist Peter Drucker examined this anti-capitalist disposition in his 1939 book The End of Economic Man, explaining that “profits are so completely subordinated in [Nazi] Germany and [Fascist] Italy to requirements of a militarily conceived national interest and of full employment that the maintenance of the profit principle is purely theoretical.”[96] One German executive complained that when a businessman makes a “sale at a higher price” he could be “denounced as a ‘profiteer’ or ‘saboteur,’ followed by a prison sentence.”[97]
That's all been edited out, most likely by some leftist turd. But there are plenty of other sources, for example, from Time Magazine, 1939:
Most cruel joke of all, however, has been played by Hitler & Co. on those German capitalists and small businessmen who once backed National Socialism as a means of saving Germany's bourgeois economic structure from radicalism. The Nazi credo that the individual belongs to the state also applies to business. Some businesses have been confiscated outright, on others what amounts to a capital tax has been levied. Profits have been strictly controlled. Some idea of the increasing Governmental control and interference in business could be deduced from the fact that 80% of all building and 50% of all industrial orders in Germany originated last year with the Government. Hard-pressed for foodstuffs as well as funds, the Nazi regime has taken over large estates and in many instances collectivized agriculture, a procedure fundamentally similar to Russian Communism.
During the 12 years of the Third Reich, government ownership expanded greatly into formerly private sectors of strategic industries, aviation, synthetic oil and rubber, aluminum, chemicals, iron and steel, and army equipment. The capital assets of state-owned industry doubled during this same period, whereby the nationalization caused state-ownership of companies to increase to over 500 businesses.[33] Further, government finances for state-owned enterprises quadrupled from 1933 to 1943.[34]
In other cases, where the Nazi administration wanted additional industry capacity, they would first nationalize and then establish a new state-owned and operated company. In 1937 Hermann Göring targeted companies producing iron ore, “taking control of all privately owned steelworks and setting up a new company, known as the Hermann Göring Works.”[35] Those industries that somehow remained in private hands often received favoritism, subsides and various state assistance. Nonetheless, Hitler was “an enemy of free market economics”[36] whose regime was committed to an economic “New Order” controlled by the “Party through a bureaucratic apparatus staffed by technical experts and dominated by political interests,” similar to the economic planning of the Soviet Union.[37]
By the late 1930s, taxation, regulations and general hostility towards the business community were becoming so onerous that one Germany businessman wrote: "These Nazi radicals think of nothing except ‘distributing the wealth,'” while some businessmen were “studying Marxist theories, so that they will have a better understanding of the present economic system."[38] In others cases, National Socialist officials were levying harsh fines of millions of marks for a “single bookkeeping error.” [39]
What is matter is control, and the Hitler controlled the German economy to the same extent Lenin controlled the Russian economy.
-25
This l i t e r a l l y just "leftism is when the government does stuff" advanced level dumb.
25
I knew it! Trump was the real socialist all along.
19
No, that's not the difference between left and right, maybe start reading instead of just listening to fox for information. Ffs most anarchists (in all honesty I'd say all anarchists) are on the left side of the spectrum
4
I'm gonna assume you're related to N30. At least he's entertaining though.
2
I love that art style, tho the content is too dumb for me to even place it on any political spectrum.
3
Never heard of that sub before. After viewing it for a few minutes I still have no idea (or interest) concerning what it's about.
-4
He's an insane conspiracy theorist.
2
The "insane" part comes from lack of evidence. I have given plenty of evidence supporting the idea that fascism is just a branch of socialism.
Do you believe someone like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez would ever join the Libertarian Party? Of course not. Her political views are completely incompatible with Libertarianism, because they are at the opposite ends of the political spectrum.
But communists joined the Nazi party en masse, because they are both in the same part of the spectrum. From that link:
As a former Marxist in his early years, Goebbels once stated "how thin the dividing line" was between communism and National Socialism, which had caused many Red Front Fighters to "switch to the SA".[15] Goebbels expressed that sentiment in a 1925 public speech, declaring that "the difference between Communism and the Hitler faith is very slight".[16]
-2
The wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: “Anarcho Communists are actually the exact opposite of other Communists. You imbecile. You fucking moron.”
2
[deleted]
-49
While the east portion of germany is doing worse than the west, they're still much better off now than they were before the reunification.
60
Only seems logical seeing as West Germany got a 30 year economic head start on them.
20
At least now they can drive a Volkswagen instead of a Trabant.
37
Yeah but did the Trabant lie about diesel emissons?? /s
8
Oh I can tell you from first hand experience that things are way better now than they were in the GDR times
29
If you are comparing it to West Germany, obviously it falls short. After all, economic growth is cumulative, and West Germany had a 40 year head start in building a liberal society. In absolute terms, they are obviously better off. But the scars of extractive institutions are long lasting.
24
Is this supposed to be ironic?!
18
A decade + of fascism followed by half a century of communism doesn't suddenly make it a great place.
In college, I did a research paper looking at East Germany vs. West Germany in terms of pollution, and what I found iirc is that West Germany pollutes as much as the wealthy nations of Western Europe, more than East Germany which pollutes as little as much of the rest of countries that were under the Iron Curtain. So why is that? What I found was that the East is still far less wealthy than the West. This and a whole bunch of other things make me think that they've not experienced the pleasures of liberalism quite as much as the rest of the First World.
16
Dunno why you're being downvoted when everything you said is right.
4
Reminder that they sold it as an Anti-Fascist protection wall (this is the source of my username)
It deserved the name "Faschistischer Schmutzwall", tbh.
[deleted]
Lol dank handle.
Is there a word to describe this sort of thing where oppressive governments spout such absurd bullshit and then force everyone to act like it's true? It reminds me of when I read someone argue that North Korea is fine with its people knowing government propaganda is full of shit, it's not about convincing people of something, it's about fucking with their heads.
[deleted]