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r/learndota2•
666Ven

Selfless Supporting vs Selfish Supporting

Discussion

Selfless Supporting vs Selfish Supporting

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Been watching Escaping the Trench series (thanks for starting this up again) with more emphasis on supporting over just outplaying people in middle and I noticed that this definition of supporting is massivly different to the classic 3-4k support you see in pubs.

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In these games, all henry is after is kills and almost all the support games he just ends up playing as a core via killing heroes. He doesn't sacrafice himself for teammates or gimp his own game in the hope his cores carry. Instead he takes over the game going wherever he can to grab kills. Few examples involve starting safelane pos 5 and just sacking the lane after 3 minutes because there's no kill potential in the lane. He then moves to other lanes and tries to positivly affect the outcome of any lane that has kill potential.

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My question s how viable is it to do this. Does this only work at lower mmrs? Is this the kind of plays that would hold him back if he was on his main account? Is this only viable 'because he can'

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In pubs supports tend to feel the need to 'buff' their carry with farm but in these games there is 100 times more emphsis on crippling the enemy and snowballing his own hero.

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Links below for those curious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwURRLG2GrA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CylWq4aF-4Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqaMPwG8Sv0

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TLDR: as a support I often find myself babysitting a carry where there's no kill potential. Is it okay to leave him if I can get kills elsewhere despite what happens to their networth as a result. Where is the line drawn.

Posted Jan 15, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC · edited

4249
danjustin•

One of the most useless things a position 5 does is sit in lane with a carry. You are just sapping XP. Either run at the offlaner, or pull/stack camps.

You act like your job is to babysit but really ask what are you babysitting...if you are protecting vs a tower dive, you can do that by TPing in. Everything you should be doing as the 5 almost entails needing a TP to save your pos 1.

I think this is where lower mmr supports mess up. The first minute should be a straight up head bash between you and the offlane with the goal of burning all their Regen while your carry can secure the first wave or two of farm....why is that first wave important? Because they can buy enough sustain (or get enough xp) to lane alone.

Once that first phase is done, normally about 60 seconds into the game, the next goal is leave your carry alone. The second you can leave them alone, the better your team will be. Sometimes it's when they hit 6, sometimes it's when they hit 3....but that's a powerspike that you need to play around.

19
ComplX89•

I liked the way BSJ put it, he says something like theres all these things that a carry wants to do. last hit, deny, harrass, grab runes, do pulls, get vision etc etc. except they are only in one place at a time, you as a support should be doing the things that need to be done, that they CANNOT do. if they cant harrass the enemy, as a support i can, if my core is harrassing, you bet ya those last hits are mine. my cores lanes pushing, he cant pull, he has to stay to get CS. look who is free to do that.

you dont ever "sacrifice" yourself. you're a symbiosis, you and your core are a squad to get the most out of the lane together.

If i remember i think this is the link: https://youtu.be/OPFIbtNqA38?t=1016

12
TheMutantHotDogKing of dirt•

He can do this because he has the skills to do so. Actual 3k supports do not, and will end up with a useless lvl 3 support from running around not getting xp and a useless carry from getting 2v1ed

14
digitalsmearWe march!•

Depends... I would say about 80% of the time in my garbage tier games, as core, unless the support is actually responding, positioning well to harass so as not to fuck up my creep equilibrium too badly, and going for opportunities when I call them, then I ask them to just leave the lane.

I ask them to stack, I ask them to go help elsewhere... Anything! Just leave. I'll be better off solo because I'll outlevel the dual offlane and I'll be fine.

In the other 18%, the offlane is actually decent and I need some help. The last 2% they just disappear without saying anything anyway.

3
SquareQuarter•

Are you sure that he doesn't have superior map awareness and movement to 3k supports??

I get that sometimes pro players do crazy things that anyone less than immortal would just instantly feed (and Henry is not a pro)

but if Henry just makes a smart rotation uses a simple nuke and stun to kill an enemy core, isnt that something 3k players can learn from??

Henry usually plays these games when his wrist is hurting and he doesn't have the mechanical skills to play his main account. Seems like the perfect example for a 3k player to learn from!

0
DONGPOCALYPSE5k•

The formula is almost always the same, you want the net outcome of gold at the end of an engagement to be in the positives for your team. Gimping your hero gimps your team. Try playing a support who gets an early GPM talent like ogre, 90GPM is 900 gold in 10 minutes, aka 9% of the gold advantage you need to reach the unstoppable 10k lead.- If you get that at minute 15 and the game goes for 45 minutes then you contributed 27% of the gold advantage needed to be ahead everything else being equal, SOLELY BY EXISTING. Being greedy always wins if you do it right.

The only thing worth dying for is like... rosh or a T3. If you follow that general rule you'll be right at least 95% of the time. The drawback of playing too safe is that sometimes there will be instances where you can engage, save your core, kill another core, and live with 25 HP. That's maximum $$$ profit and the thing you want all the time. But sometimes you die at the end, or your core dies, or your core could have gotten away without dying without your help, or you try to help because you think your core has a 1% chance to live and it was actually 0%, or any other number of silly things can happen, each of them possibly losing you some gold efficiency. The point is you're supposed to 100% know the outcome before you commit your life. Hard game.

11
ItsFuckingScience5.2k MMR•

You’ve really oversimplified and ignored the downsides of getting a gpm talent over say cast range.

That cast range can be the difference between landing a spell and securing a kill / saving a teammate. That has a gold value attached to it. In addition gpm talents are good over time like you mentioned, but ability buffs/cast range/move speed are instant bonuses. If you’re looking to close a game out, capitalise on as advantage, don’t choose gpm talents

10
DONGPOCALYPSE5k•

You can buy 250 range which is 150 more then ogre's 100 range talent for 26 minutes gold worth of the talents time at 2350 gold, but if you disassemble your arcanes it turns into 16 minutes of talent GPM which isn't all that bad. And I know how godly cast range is yes, it really helps you win the game. With the GPM talent you can remain relevant longer if the game happens to go late. I think cast range is better if you're pushing HG and want something instead of nothing.

3
Ultraballer•

Ahh yes I love my 40 minute aether lens instead of my 15 minute cast range

7
zen_dtsTop10 Micromanagement Player•

Divine reasoning LUL

1
666VenOPLD2L Champion•

I guess to sum up my question (which doesnt involve gold talents at all) Is it okay to gimp my carry if I give myself a huge lead by killing other lanes and generally going around and doing whatever I want as a 'support'.

I'm starting to come round to the idea that if I can, then yes I should, but it's a dangerous mentality and I wonder at what mmr that becomes unviable.

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WrenkyBad at dota•

So he leaves the lane when two criteria are met: he cant kill them, and they can't kill his carry alone. Babysitting only makes sense if you are doing something positive in the lane, otherwise it's a waste of gold and xp.

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DONGPOCALYPSE5k•

Nah you're basically asking about gold. You're asking an impossible question that can't be answered. So let's say you sack your safelane AM. Or safelane visage. Or whatever. And the enemy has a Slark, or a PL, or a PA, or who knows. How much gold is that action actually worth? And then you go top and you get a double kill. Or you sit there for 10 minutes and do nothing. Who knows what'll happen. And you get X amount of gold and XP at the cost of X amount of gold and xp of your core. So you have enacted an arbitrary opportunity cost by using your time and money for X thing over Y thing. The questions that arise from this are:

"How badly do I need my pos1 to contribute greatly to our 10k gold lead when you consider our draft vs their draft"

"How likely is it that the power I gained at the safelane core's gold and levels will transition into a 10k gold lead? 1%? 2%? 50%? 99%?"

"How likely is it that what I'm doing will have more impact on the game compared to if I picked jungle NP, farmed a raw dagon for 9 minutes in the jungle, then used teleport and fired it at someone's face?"

IDK if that explains how I feel about it but when you try to ask for a concrete answer about a group of possibilities that have a quadrillion outcomes it makes it hard to explain.

Obviously it is possible to solo carry the game as a support by running around and killing everyone and going 15-0 at minute 15. But can you actually do that? How badly do you really need to risk the game to do this? I mean if you can become an immortal bara spammer and win the game every time, then go nuts man. But it's tough.

3
666VenOPLD2L Champion•

Thanks! Yeah I posted a very obsecure question and there is a fine line. I guess Henry just knows he will 99% of the time, get kills. Actually, even when he misses an opportunity another presents itself 10 seconds later.

''But can you actually do that? ''

Yeah I guess thats all it boils down to. I'm sure at a certain mmr he isn't able to do this.

1
DONGPOCALYPSE5k•

The actual MMR math on this is that you actually have to play 2000 MMR above the game average to have a 100% WR. Every +80 MMR your team's average MMR is above the enemy gives you a +10% winrate chance, and to make up for that as one person you need 80x5=400 MMR.

Play at a 5k level to 100% win at 3k. Play at a 7k level to 100% win at 5k. It's all documented. This also means that every time you win 3 games the game gets 10% harder.

1
SquareQuarter•

Right he does know when he can get a kill. That's exactly the part you are supposed to learn when watching his videos. You don't need pro level mechanical skills to learn about kill potential, that's why this video series can be so helpful!

1
BootySniffer26•

Probably this "selfish" playstyle is never strictly unviable at large, but I'd wager people playing at the top level don't engage in that kind of gameplay often unless under specific circumstances.

I think I'm remembering this right, but in the latest TI, N0tail drafted that position 5 (I think, maybe it was 4) NP and would basically TP in to almost every fight and just sacrifice himself if it seemed like a core was in danger.

For pub play, greed can be good - but like you suggest, it's a slippery slope.

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666VenOPLD2L Champion•

The notail example is the exact opposite of Henry'. he essentially just ends up as a core but his gold comes from kills not creeps. He is not giving kills to anyone, instead, taking them for himself, which is essentially the opposite of supporting lol. Still, seems to work

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AccomplishedVanilla3•

He is not giving kills to anyone, instead, taking them for himself, which is essentially the opposite of supporting

I'm really not trying to be mean, but that statement shows a total understanding of what it means to be a support. To improve, you need to forget everything you think you know about supporting and read a good guide or something to start over from scratch.

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chilipantzz•

You aren't gimping him, early on a hero kill is worth like 1-2 creepwaves unless they have a streak. Huge for the support, a drop in the bucket for the carry.

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Speyedur5050 MMR NA•

GPM talents are extremely overrated and if you actually do the math will find out picking a hero best suited for the game is much more important. This is terrible advice.

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CrazyPanda02•

Lol this selfish support topic remined me one of my games.theres what happened.my support was doing a great job in lane harassing,pulling and stacking.he was playing shaman,he stacked a huge camp and i felt very happy he mad that.Suddenly we both reached lvl6 and when i saw him in the jungle he ulted the stacks and he was taking them with his serpent wards lol.

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WrenkyBad at dota•

I get the why. I've often stacked camps for my carry who then proceeds to ignore it and the enemy offlane gets it! Happened often enough where I'll try to communicate with my partner early, and only stack if I get a semblance of a response.

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CrazyPanda02•

Their offlane couldnt even get near our jungle they got destroyed in early game as i said my support was good on his tasks he was doing them perfectly till i saw him taking the stacks with his ult and i laughed instead of getting mad i was ok with it cuz their offlane got crushed and i got fed af

1
SquareQuarter•

Well it seems straight up bad with ss because his ult is so good against towers, but as CM I'm not shy about ulting to farm creeps!

2
yoshiyahuZIP! ZAP!•

Sry misclick

3
PsibadgerShendelzare <3•

To be fair, that is not a bad play to make especially if he is a solo support. SS is better played as a 4 than a 5 anyway, and an early blink for example, could be match deciding. Other heroes who should consider doing these sorts of things are support Earthshakers - stack a camp a few times then ulti for the gold and a fast blink dagger that can make a big difference in the midgame. IMO, context matters and in this game - especially as he had played well in lane - it may well have been the right thing to do.

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AccomplishedVanilla3•

>He doesn't sacrafice himself for teammates or gimp his own game in the hope his cores carry.

I think you are totally misunderstanding what henry is doing. By rotating he is being selfless. You get no xp for rotating (unless you get a kill) and you allow the carry to get solo XP. And yes, if there is no kill potential, why would he stay in the lane and sap xp from his carry?

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666VenOPLD2L Champion•

You realise he takes kills he could just give to cores right?

1
AccomplishedVanilla3•

the kill bounty split among 2 or 3 heroes is not that much -- it really doesn't matter who gets the kill versus assist. In any event, the importnat part is the enemy laner being dead so carry can free farm while enemy gets zero xp while dead

7
BrennendKryzelI'LL SUNDER THIS... something•

There are limits. Greed is good. However a Shadow Shaman contesting a carry without a quelling blade is madness.

The point is after the game if you're playing as a core, you are responsible 100%. There can then be no question of the other failures in the team. It's like how Jugg gets 10 points in supporting by using heal ward.

Be selfish by all means. Later one does not question the carry about their lack of farm, because well, you sacked their lane at min 3 whoop de doo now they have nothing. It can work. But responsibility must be taken for ones action

2
pepperisk4.4K SEA trash•

That's how you should always play support, methinks. Sitting in a lane with no kill potential and if you're not helping your carry by zoning out the offlaner, you're wasting your time. You can go pull creeps to help your carry farm easier, stack so that your mid/carry can pull ahead or get back into the game, roam to get kills, etc.

1
cervesistaVengeful Spirit•

A lot of great replies here already, but the biggest thing I've learned from this series is that good supports kick ass early game. What Henry does is capitalize on this. In any game he plays, whether as a core, he knows when he can get a kill because he's familiar with all these interactions.

As a support spammer, I've learned that as Venge, I'm only strong in a double stun/disable lane early, but after getting a kill or two, I'll definitely need mana. When playing Dazzle, I know I can cast Poison Touch once and right click from the trees to keep it going. I never ask my core to follow up on that because that's my job. Great if they do, if they don't, even better, secure last hits.

Most supports kill early/mid game and cores take over mid/late game, especially in this meta.

1
lookseedoosoBouncing Glaives•

300 gpm cores

someone has to step up

1
ghl23•

It’s been sometime since I’ve watched any of escaping the trench. I’d be interested if he does the same thing playing a hard pos 5 ? I believe all three of the examples you provided are hero’s that can play a pos 3.

1
Voidwalker86•

I have wondered something similar when watching his videos - sometimes he blatently steals the kills, and even though he is making great plays, and helping win the lanes, he eventually gets caught out (i think it was in his rubick game, he was 9-0) and dies, giving huge gold to the enemy team. Is this worth it?

1
Alex_Mattson•

Alright bro.. i understand what you meant in your TLDR..

I am a 5K and can play almost every hero and any position, i have played dota since 2008. Dota 2 in 2011.

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For a POS 5, when there is no kill potential in your lane.. you want to deny the opposite laner gold and exp by pulling creeps.. this way you get your pos1 laner more exp and so do you. You need to be doing something your carry isn't doing.

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Before you leave your lane.. ask yourself a few things.

Is your carry able to survive independently after you leave?

Does your carry have vision to prevent ganks?

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If either of them is NO, you are fucking up your carry by leaving him in an early stage.

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By the way, if you are following henry guide on dominating low brackets.. it's not gonna work for you coz players that are genuinely at that level do not have the ability to do so.. no offense man..

1
666VenOPLD2L Champion•

'it's not gonna work for you coz players that are genuinely at that level do not have the ability to do so'

Support becoming cores works if there is a large mmr disparity - not if they are 5k or more, it's about the gap.

'Is your carry able to survive independently after you leave? Does your carry have vision to prevent ganks?'

Fairly sure when he did this drow got dived and died

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Alex_Mattson•

yeah.. then that's a really selfish play.

Yeah they for sure work when your opponents are disorganized AF.

Btw, in a proper matchup.. support going core is gonna starve your carries and lead to a loss.. i have seen lower brackets games where the supports are farming the entire game.

Regarding lane abandon, It reminds me of a friend which i duo queued with.. he oftens abandon the lane anyhow and gets me into deep shit like that. I always told him off though.

1