Source
r/livesound•
UltraCompressor

Biggest differences between live and studio sound?

I've never actually done live sound before, just studio. Am wondering what the obvious differences between the two are? If I was in a bar and had to step up to the mixing desk as a last minute favour, what would be the obvious things I might not think of? I saw someone mention earlier that you might as well keep everything mono, because stereo might sound weird to the audience who are standing to one side.

Edit: I'm talking about things on the actual desk compared to things in a DAW. Like EQing, panning, FX, compression, etc. The actual sound. I don't mean stuff like unloading the van or chipping in with physical labour, i've toured as part of a band and know how to do all that setup and micing stuff already. I've just never been behind the actual desk while the show is going on.

Posted Feb 11, 2019, 4:40 AM UTC · edited

1778
audiokopp•

Biggest is probably lack of time, feedback and compromise. There is a certain amount of “good enough” in live sound. Not saying that live sound can’t be good. I compare it to the doctors, live sound is kinda like an EMT or battlefield medic. they will save your life and keep you alive. Fixing and doing good just with limited time and under pressure. A surgeon has time to go in with a scalpel and fix every little problem with enough time. Has time to think and plan. very precise. Both have a certain skills and share a lot between the two. A surgeon can help save a life in a emergency but might make mistakes under unusual circumstances and a EMT could potentially pull off a surgery but it won’t be pretty.

32
UltraCompressorOP•

Do you use a compressor on your master bus? Seems like a basic thing that the two might share.

3
Mando_calrissian423Pro - Chattanooga•

You can, the downsides to overusing each are different. In one instance, the mix sounds squashed and like all life has been taken from it, in the other, you’ll get tons of feedback from the mains and the audience will hate you.

14
JamponyForever•

Mixing live lends itself to a light touch with compression in general. Especially as the rooms you work get bigger.

3
audiokopp•

I will use a very light one. I have been using some out of the Yamaha line that haze some high end compressors. Ones that I use are usually emulating tube gear so it helps a little bit.

1
jerradT-1000•

This Exactly!

2
TeleportMePizza•

You probably won't be mixing in the "sweet spot".

There probably isn't a "sweet spot".

Stage volume plays a big factor.

29
dontcallitthat•

Also there’s no “probably.”

13
TeleportMePizza•

You're probably right.

13
sik-sik-siks•

Probably

1
TeleportMePizza•

Bless your heart!

;)

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

3
Wuz314159Squint•

We got a "Studio" guy directly from Full Sail at a company I worked at. Day 1 he refused to help load or unload the truck. Refused to move monitors between opener & headliner. Said he was just there to mix.
He was asked not to come back.

23
darkdoppelgangerPro FOH/Monitors•

I have always held the belief that if you go to school to get a job in this industry, day 1 - lesson 1 should be:

This is a truck. In order to get a passing grade, you must successfully unload and re-pack it without injuring yourself or anyone else.

17
South_in_AZ•

In our shop it was howmtomcoil cables, them practicing over/under until it was second nature, and the rule to always tab your tape.

5
CrrntryGrntlrmrn•

Full Sail teaches this but not in recording arts, but show production and touring.

1
dontcallitthat•

I hope he was at least first asked to leave.

5
Wuz314159Squint•

Needed a ME for the night. Didn't cut him loose until the gig was done.

5
dontcallitthat•

I have a friend who went to Full “Sale” for “music production.” I still don’t understand wtf that means. He said he worked for Chris Lord-Alge and I still don’t understand what that means. I didn’t want to get into it because I knew I wasn’t gonna take him seriously.

2
Matt7738•

Full Sail is like Juilliard. It’s a big name school that turns out some fantastic talent and some real head scratchers.

Most of the Full Sail guys I’ve worked with are incredible. Most of them were good before they went. Now they’re great.

I think the clowns are the ones who didn’t know their stuff before they went. Theory is great if you know how to apply it. But if all you have is theory, then you’re not worth much.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

3
Matt7738•

The answer is “maybe”. If you can find a road dog who’s a good teacher, you could learn just as much on a big tour - while MAKING money instead of spending it.

Besides, big jobs don’t hire you because of your diploma. They hire you because someone knows you.

You can make great contacts at Full Sail. You can make great contacts in NY, LA, Nashville, and the road. It’s up to you.

4
nerdmania•

Sounds like he didn't want to be there in the first place. Still pretty crappy to not pitch in, even if his goal was to not be asked back.

2
CrrntryGrntlrmrn•

I think the only audio guys who just mix are union dicks not flying line array. Not that they would be rigging (haha hell no) but adjusting the angles.

1
redwingsofsteel•

I'm an in house guy and one of our on-campus clients insists on using some freelance guy on all musical acts that come through (we'll call him T). We set the stage, patch everything, get his FOH position all cosy. He's less hands on than many of the touring FOH techs that come through our small venue (1k outdoor space, 300 indoor) . It kinda makes sense, as he speaks the mother tongue of the demographic we cater to, but there's times it gets ridiculous.

We ran an off-site event for a large foreign holliday observance and for this we needed a line array. Fortunately we have a contact with a fantastic engineer and the company he owns (we'll call him A) , so we didn't have to pay PSAV for anything. We make arrangements to rent his line array and have him run audio. After the deal was finalized and CFO had approved his invoice, Ts handlers called A to tell him that T would be running sound. His response was that if they want T so much, then T can provide the system and A can remove the date from his calendar. T does not own a line array. Ts handlers relented, and T would simply be there as stage hand and translator.

3
dswpro•

You can't turn the drums down. Nor the amps. The smaller the venue, and the louder the band in that venue, the harder your job is. There is no rewind button. You can't get through the crowd to fix a bad mic, maybe someone is there to help, maybe not. You can't overpower a room to make up for shitty acoustics. Some mixes are nearly all vocals with the occasional solo. Your studio doesn't have drunk people coming up to you asking to fix the sound, well maybe not as many. Your gear isn't covered with beer bottles at the end of a gig, your band isn't stumbling around on stage slurring their words in the last set. If you wind up in large theaters or outdoor venues it gets a lot closer to studio, but you still don't get as much time as you may be used to. The principles of mixing are similar, the practice is hurried and full of compromises.

23
sik-sik-siks•

When you can hear the monitors over the mains and it would be irresponsible to turn the mains up any more. The band may be deaf but the audience doesn't have to end up that way too.

1
darkdoppelgangerPro FOH/Monitors•

Time. When you've got an hour allotted for soundcheck, you can't spend 30 minutes trying to get the kick drum 'just right'.

13
Cohacq•

You mean an hour for the band to set up their gear, for you to set up your mics and then soundcheck, right?

7
Matt7738•

Yup, the kick is patched correctly. Lead vocal is patched correctly. Everything else? Who knows. We don’t have gains, monitors, or subs, but the band was running an hour late and the club owner is losing his mind.

Showtime!

9
scawt85•

This is probably the thing i see most when a studio guy comes in to mix a show. Dont get past hats.

3
tnnes•

Sometimes on festivals you have 30 minutes to do the whole changeover.

2
roger_niner_niner•

And 30 minutes is a luxury...

2
Kaligraphic•

Studio sound is about polishing a performance to the limit. If something doesn’t work, you can try again. You have control of all the sounds that go into a track, and you’re not radically changing performers, material, and environment between sound check and recording. You have the time to get all of the automation perfect. You can play with your effects until you get them right, and there’s time to add in all the processing you really want to do.

Live sound is about catastrophe management. You don’t get do-overs, and if something doesn’t work, you have to recover right then and there. You don’t have control of all of your inputs, stage volume is a massive issue, and even the audience can count as an input. Performers rarely perform in sound check exactly as they do in the show, nor do they perform all the same material, nor does the room itself respond the same once it’s filled with people. So aiming for that perfect level of preamp saturation is risky. Live sound has to start by avoiding bad outcomes. It’s more risk-averse because of the lack of do-overs, but at the same time, you have to be more decisive, because there’s no stopping a live show to mull over the best EQ for a channel.

If you engineer for a band instead of working venues and events, that won’t hold true as much, but generally a live engineer in a studio plays things safe and might not give each element as much attention as a studio engineer would, and a studio engineer working live tends to freeze or to overdo EQ and effects, and can have trouble keeping up.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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chunkosauruswrex•

Truth as someone at a HoW we have some people who are at a 6 in practice then dial it up to 11 during service.

2
UltraCompressorOP•

Cool thanks for the input. So not doing a soundcheck could be the difference between a disaster and a great sound on the night?

2
Matt7738•

No question. And in 99% of cases, you won’t get the sound check you need.

Best of luck. Lol!

6
UltraCompressorOP•

Oh i'm not planning on doing it any time soon haha I just wondered. I'm sure if I was at a gig there would always be someone there who is more experienced than me.

1
Matt7738•

You’ll be fine. The fact that you don’t think you know everything already puts you ahead of the game.

Edit: remember, we’re not curing cancer here, it’s just rock and roll. I love it. I eat, sleep, and breathe music, but at the end of the day, we’re making people happy. There’s some grace in that.

1
Cohacq•

Yep. Soundcheck is mandatory.

2
chunkosauruswrex•

Mandatory but unlikely to truly happen

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

2
Kaligraphic•

Absolutely. It’s your big chance to not be figuring things out in front of the crowd. Just be careful, too, because usually it’s the crowd that gets the band really amped up and singing/playing at full volume. Oh, and 95%+ of guitarists who bring amps turn them up between sound check and the show.

So sound checks are important, but you can’t fully rely on them like you could in a studio.

2
rickenbackerkid•

yes.

1
Nalyd40•

I would say understanding signal flow is a huge part of live sound. You may need to make quick patch changes, do weird rountings, and troubleshoot on the fly at a show. You have to be able to do it fast enough that the audience doesnt notice how long the changeover has been

9
dbuckley•

You don't get a second attempt at the mix. Every gets to hear your rough mix. So prioritise what is important in terms of your time during the mix.

On the other hand, they won't over-analyse your errors, and neither should you lose sleep over them.

Enjoy the music.

9
MrRonObvious•

You don't have feedback issues in the studio.

Most studio guys are miserable at mixing live. Sorry.

7
UltraCompressorOP•

Can't you be both though?

1
MrRonObvious•

Sure. Takes time though.

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chunkosauruswrex•

Bad at studio and live sure that's a possibility

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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Matt7738•

It’s WAAAAAAY louder. You have far less control, far less time, and many more obstacles.

On the bright side, the expectations are far lower. There’s way more room for error. And the excitement factor is a lot higher.

Two wildly different animals.

6
Philboyd_Studge•

To me they are barely the same thing. For one, live sound is like 1000% more stressful than studio work. So many things can go wrong, and do, like others are saying you usually don't really have time to dial in EQ specific to every singer - you're more worried about how the EQ affects the room. Panning is mostly useless. Compression is very useful but can make feedback worse. FX need to be added with a very light touch - artificial reverb can fight with actual room reverb and create mud. In live situations you are often dealing with things you can't control, that in a studio you could stop everything and change - like singers with no mic technique, guitarists with too loud amps, drummers with wildly varying dynamics...

3
UltraCompressorOP•

It must be great to work with the same band every week compared to trying to figure out a different band/singer every time

1
FlipTheEgg•

That's on my bucket list for the next year. Being able to really polish a live mix would be nice. But I gotta say, the diversity of the situations you're in when doing something new every time is unbeatable.

1
AkkathaPro - UK•

The room you’re mixing in is part of your mix now, and there’s very little you can do about it.

I’m not much of a FoH guy, I’m normally at the monitor end. It’s an interesting experience learning to mix monitors. Feedback control (unless on ears), level and clarity of mix are far more important than the nice glitter of sidechains and bus compression. You can get there if you’re working with the same act for a time, but if you’re busking festival style then there just isn’t the time.

I would also suggest that interpersonal skills come into the job far more, but then I also have some amazing respect for a top producer that gets a great album out of a band, and that takes a lot of that too.

3
UltraCompressorOP•

A lot of people have mentioned feedback as being the biggest problem. What is your automatic process of elimination if you start getting feedback? I guess the first thing would be to look at the singer and see if they're waving the mic around in front of the monitors or something?

1
AkkathaPro - UK•

Well realistically you would ‘ring the wedges out’ before anyone sings in front of them. This involves notching out frequencies from the monitor send to minimise the feedback.

Then if it feeds back during show, you have a few approaches. You can try and notch more out of that freq/area which requires a quick ear to identify (or analyser programs like smaart). This can fix your problems, but also destroy the sound of the mix, so like in all of live sound it’s a trade off and a compromise. Depends on the artist really, my job is to make them happy and keep them happy on stage. So long as they think the mix is great, my job is done, even if I think it’s terrible!

As far as the singer waving mics around etc, sometimes you can have a chat with them (especially out on tours) and suggest different technique, but realistically you just have to suck it up and get on with it. Stages with thrusts are bastards because it screws both the monitor mix AND the front of house mix when they stand in front of the PA.

Basically it’s all a compromise at some point or another and getting the job done is more important that spending forever fixing one difficult area of the mix.

1
AnalogHumanSentient•

At a pro level, on a large stage/big name recording job, there is very little to do with each other.

Nothing is the same except for one: Your attitude will reflect on your next gig way more than your actual performance at the job.

3
thenocaster•

The biggest one for me is how most musicians treat you. At the studio you are the guy who knows a lot and we have to listen to and in a live situation they feel like god and the guy at the mixer is the looser that's making them sound terrible

2
UltraCompressorOP•

Haha yeah I hear you. Live sound guys are definitely underappreciated at gigs. Live bands can get very demanding, especially when they start getting good attention from the crowd and their ego starts brewing.

1
doctorray•

This is from a musical theater perspective, which isn't too far off from band or worship mixing. I typically train my new A1's that their priorities are ranked in this order:

  1. Pickups -- All the right microphones on at the right time, and off at the right time.
  2. Balance -- Find the leader in the mix, and don't let them fade into the background. This isn't always a vocal. Think about what you can turn down, not just what you can turn up.
  3. Tuning -- If and when there's time, dialing in compressors and eq for each channel.

Stage volume is always something you gotta deal with, and if you're really lucky it will be low or controllable, but probably not. If you can afford to, try to walk around and listen in different spots in the house. If you fuck up, you can't go back and fix it, so just make the best out of the time you have left and make better preparations for next time.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

2
UltraCompressorOP•

turn things down not up

I feel like this is a general mixing rule that a lot of people still don't know. I've been to so many gigs where the sound was way too loud and just sounded distorted, hurt my ears and kind of just ruined the songs. It could have been half the volume and would have been fine.

Also, I get why bands fuck around with their amps (mostly ego, they get hyped up and want to turn it up to 11), but then I also don't get it because what they're hearing isn't the same as what the crowd is hearing. Whenever i've played in a band I always just let the mix guy do all the levels. And we almost always did soundchecks a few hours before, unless the venue had a fixed set of gear and sound guy that was the same every week.

1
UltraCompressorOP•

Do you still do things like carve space for each instrument with EQ? Is sidechaining your kick to the bass even a thing?

1
audiokopp•

Live sound guys are starting to use studio trick in live but is usually if a your on a tour with a band day after day. Side chain compression is becoming more common place. If the show is festival style all that goes out the door and replaced by speed and basic mixing. Gotta have a good base before you can fine tune.

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Twincitiesny•

You do to some degree, but you’ll also have much bigger things to worry about for your first 100+ shows than little tricks to make your mix 5% better. Like figuring out how to get sound to come out of the right place. Or getting an even remotely usable sound out of a bar band’s 810 on 10 that they think they “eq’d“

8
andvidhSemi-Pro•

If the clock isn't ticking, sure.

If mixing minor acts at major festivals, on the other hand, you're lucky if you get more than 15-20 seconds per channel. Most people I've worked with prioritize gainstaging, low cut, notching out a couple offending frequencies, and setting some compression if needed (in that order).

As for the "carving out space"-thing, making sure the two guitar players are playing different amps with different settings etc. has a far better effort-to-reward ratio than complimentary EQ.

8
dontcallitthat•

What you do is based on a ton of different factors, but the most important one is time. Sometimes you only have 5 minutes to sound check a band you’ve never heard.

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Danman277Pro - NY•

I definitely use little tricks like the ones you said, but the most important fundamental skill would be being able to ring out a monitor in a few minutes, and being able to build a mix on the spot with around 15 seconds per channel, My workflow is Gain > Low Cut > eq out obviously troublesome frequencies > compression

1
mockerpants2Pro, HOW/Install, Phoenix•

I'll throw in something that I haven't seen: Unless you're mixing for a band that swings a big enough stick to be able to really enforce the tech rider, or carry a console, being able to get around the house FOH console is super important.

I'm the house engineer / systems guy for a 1500 seat venue, and we get a mix of bands that do and don't insist on a particular console. If they don't, they get to use the house board.

The things that you're controlling are all the same, but the user interface is different from board to board. Taking the time to properly advance the show, especially if you aren't ridering / carrying a console, is super important. Does the venue have a desk you haven't worked on? If it's digital, do everything you can to get the offline editor working. Read the manual.

Your already short timeline will completely evaporate if you can't figure out how to get the signal where you want it to go. If there's a system tech, they can be really helpful for you on setup, but even then, in the heat of the moment, having a good idea on how to switch that Aux send from PreFade to PostFade can be the difference between your ability to hear your FX or not.

Really Really advance the show. Find out if you can put subs on their own mix (aux/mtx). Same for fills. Find out if you need additional outputs for other parts of the venue. At mine, lights and video is in an isolated production suite, so we need some kind of board feed so the LD can make with pretty lights.

1
UltraCompressorOP•

It seems to me from reading the answers here that the biggest pain in the ass is the fact that the gear or the band changes every night, meaning you have to learn a new setup every time. I guess until you hit the really big time, you will never have the comfort of using the same gear with the same band on tour every night. That would solve a lot of the problems straight away.

1
mockerpants2Pro, HOW/Install, Phoenix•

It all depends on your situation. If you're the house guy at a venue, then the PA gear will probably be fairly stable, so you just deal with different input lists. If you're out with a band, you deal with different gear.

However it pans out, live audio is all about adaptation, troubleshooting, and compromise. Becoming good at adapting to changing situations and making the best of what you have is the skill set to work on. If you keep it up, you'll end up with a backpack or pelican full of little turn arounds, microphones, etc. that help you out in lots of situations.

My final thing: observationally, when I'm at a show that sounds bad, I can frequently look over and see the engineer dicking around with some plugin on the kick drum while the vocal and lead guitars are basically inaudible. In the studio, you can fuss around with outboard all day. On stage, you want it to sound acceptable first, then start tinkering.

1
UnderwaterMessPro FOH - Miami, FL•

Your initial inclination will be taking your sweet time for soundcheck, dialing in dynamics and eq for each channel as you go. In reality, you won't get a soundcheck.

In the studio, you're concerned about the input and how you treat it before it settles in the mix. In live work, that's only a small part of the puzzle, as you still have system processors/EQ, and then the PA and room acoustics to deal with. The vocal might sound great when it's cued in your headphones, but you have to account for stage volume and bleed and potential feedback from numerous sources that don't come into play in the studio.

1
fureddit1•

I think the biggest difference between Live and Studio is that you don't have to deal with mic feedback in a Studio.

When running Live sound, you have to EQ the feedback out. This is easy to do when it's a meeting or conference because you could adjust the EQ while the presenter is speaking but it's much harder when you're mixing for a band because it's hard to pinpoint which frequency needs to be cut when all the instruments are playing and all the people are singing.

1