Listen Loco Ep. 32 - Trash Teams, Coaches, and LCS Predictions Ft. MarkZ (TSM is one of the first team talked about)
Posted Feb 27, 2019, 7:56 PM UTC
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Man when Thoorin said Wildturtle for MVP instead of maybe Santorin from Flyquest (only Flyquest question)...
I was like damn he doesn't watch the LCS at all...
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santorin is 2nd to xmithie only legit .... thorin has 0 league knowledge , i dont respect his league knowledge at all maybe in cs he knows some but league NOTHING .
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Or even pobelter
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Personally, I can't stand Thorin. He is more concerned with being edgy than anything else. It's hard to take the guy serious when all he does is troll.
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I think he he has been pretty fine so far on Listen Loco. Sometimes the show feels like it has to much Thorin shitting on Loco but seems alright.
In this one is particular I feel his opinons were fine. He called out teams for pretty obvious flaws and while I didn't fully agree with his stance on TSM he didn't say anything crazy.
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Listening to this yesterday on Loco's stream it kind of seems Thoorin didn't watch last weeks games and just looked at the end results. Because he was talking about Smoothie's struggles in previous weeks but doesn't mention how he solo carried the CLG game or how is his Tahm stonewalled Flyquest's attempts at a snowball.
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Yea. I think comments like that will go away in time as the team shows more and more consistent games on top of the 3 back to back so far.
I was also a little confused cause I think MarkZ said some quick comment about Smoothie's Tahm being not great in the FQ when I thought he played very well.
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He made crucial mistakes such as when Zven got killed in lane early in the game. That actually is mostly Smoothie's fault as TK should never be close enough to the Varus to get double combo'd by Ali as they did. In this situation Smoothie is just supposed to eat Zven as the CC lands. He cleaned it up after that and played very well the rest of the game though. Markz point about Smoothie and Zven making uncharacteristic mistakes isn't entirely wrong.
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Smoothie was devouring really late early on which actually lead to Turtle getting FB, and he had a few other weird ones throughout.
He also left Zven and BB alone against the entire FQ team at one point. That's a mistake from Zven and BB for not moving with the team, but also as TK you're supposed to sit on the carries to save them and he wasn't there.
That's not to say he was playing it horribly. But he definitely made some major mistakes.
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He openly admits that he rarely watches spring split regular season matches and just watches the highlights. He usually watches playoff series though.
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I didn’t really hear him say anything on this episode that was egregious. On TSM specifically I think the criticism from everyone was pretty valid.
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One thing I don't see anyone commenting about is that Loco and MarkZ called out SSONG as not being a very good coach. They said they heard he is good with analysis and game related stuff, but not very good at getting players to listen, or fixing teamwork related issues (and cited Rush's bad builds and plays that have been going on for weeks and should have been fixed immediately). They also said he worked well on IMT because with Pob, Xmithie and Olleh there probably weren't many conflicts within the team since they have very team oriented personalities. While I think some people kind of suspected this about SSONG after what we saw in Legends last year (Mithy's rant, team having to solve their own issues), it's interesting to see it be acknowledged by people with behind the scenes info. I'm glad that Tony and our other support staff this year seem to be an improvement over last year.
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If he was good on immortals because the players were more team oriented as you say, then I think it’s fair to say it’s both the players and coach who have to make it work.
And if not, then get a coach who is right for your team. For TSM that isn’t song, but for other teams it could be.
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If you're a coach you need to be able to solve conflicts and guide the team. It's part of the job description. They said SSONG's skills are more suited to be an analyst, not a head coach, and based on what they described, I agree.
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Damn, wonder how he worked on IMT.
If anything I’d expect them to need more guidance considering TSM last year had good veteran players.
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I believe TSM talked starts around 18-ish mins in. I think overall the general sentiment is far of TSM being good but weird with some rookie mistakes by players.
I personally think the team is getting more consistent over the weeks and should silence a lot of doubt by playoffs.
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Two of the biggest TSM haters in Thorin and Markz being mildly positive about TSM means we're very good
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Markz is a TSM hater?
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Fairly obvious to me, just watch him struggle to admit they aren't garbage anymore last weekend, especially on Sunday after the FQ game. And that's just 1 example, i get that feeling from him all the time. Which is totally fine btw, i'm biased against some players/teams as well.
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I don't think Mark is a TSM hater, because on hotline league when a real TSM hater calls in just to speak something bad about TSM, mark is very quick laugh it off and basically really counter argument the guy. He has actually be very for Tsm on that show.
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I just think he is not a fan of the team tbh.
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I don't think he struggles to admit "they aren't garbage." I think he's just an analyst and spends time thinking about what he's saying given the data.
Obviously, I could be missing stuff, but he seems to always try and give an objective analysis.
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He's a content creator that needs views. Mark knows what he's doing.
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I think so, when MarkZ talks, I always expect him to be biased.
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I didn’t think they were positive at all.
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I think Loco is the only one who knows what he's talking about, MarkZ plays favorites and Thoorin, although entertaining, doesn't know much.
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I've been enjoying this show, but I wish they'd elaborate on the "Bjergsen isn't the best anymore" comment regarding NA. They talked about it a few eps ago, saying Bjerg is stubborn regarding how he plays the game but has great work ethic. It seemed like they were resigning him to be how a lot of players view Froggen - stuck with a current mindset and unable to improve.
This has been a fantastic year for Bjergsen so far and he is showing that he's capable of improving and playing different playstyles. When he played Zoe against TL he had constant lane pressure with the champ as intended. I don't want to sound like I'm blindly defending a popular player, but Bjergsen has been having a great year and even in losses has been a bright spot of the team.
It is in comparison to how Bjergsen played in season 4 and 5. He does not have the same dominance in the game as he did back then. The game evolves a lot over the years and the general state of NA Midlane has increased since then. Now you got both Bjergsen, Jensen, PoE and Froggen that can dominate lane. So Bjerg is no longer the arguably best Mid in NA anymore. Same could be said about Faker in LCK though. He is neither as dominating in season 9 as he was in season 3-6.
I'm pretty sure that's been the case for 2 years now. People have been saying he's on the decline. Especially now, everyone is saying Chovy is the best.
Yeah Chovy is definitely the best Mid in LCK this year. BDD was also better than Faker in 2018 imo.
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They arent dominating as hard as they were because the game is changed, not because they got worse. Their opponents have gotten better just naturally as the game has been out longer. The game mechanics have changed. You cant 1v9 anymore. Champions are tankier, deal more damage, and even supports are a threat. Look across the world, yes there are big name players, but no one is leaps and bounds better than the competition anymore. Its just not a part of the game anymore.
To be fair tho he used to dumpster people on Leblanc/Zed/etc every game, but haven't seen that kinda pool from him in a while. Much easier to stand out on those champs, hence why everyone thought we were going to Worlds after that Akali game last year. Everyone was like OMG WE BACK HE BODYING PEOPLE AGAIN lol, but on Lissandra we're just golf clapping after plays like, "Nice ult sir very nice indeed, may I have another please thank you." Its still bodying, but the plays are more subdued.
Bjergsen on assassin's is literally all I wanna watch. His akali game was actually so good.
That's also attributed to how the game has changed though. In S4 and S5 you saw a lot more solocarry games in general through lane advantages; now the game is a lot more about teamplay and lane priorities
It gets views. Bjerg is still the best in NA. He doesn't get 10 kills a game in lane phase, but he has so much more pressure on the game then people notice.
To make it simple, most players have a few concepts they anchor their play around. Froggen's a good example, he tends to anchor around getting CS and personal power and unleashing it in the mid-late game. He'll tend to use his resources getting all of the CS and then set up his back timings when it would make sense to gank him. This was a very successful strat when he was a top player but it's generally not viewed as competitive these days. It gives you great stats but it doesn't win games.
Bjerg's from a generation after Froggen so he doesn't have the same anchors but he's still about gaining an incremental advantage in lane and converting that through high percentage plays into a teamwide advantage. That's less obviously wrong, but there are arguments that it's a weak style when vision is less secure.
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