Source
r/GCdebatesQT•
sosososhocking

What leads a trans woman to believe they are a woman?

This question has been on my mind lately, and I've been lurking trans communities online to discover why MTF trans think they are women. So far, here's generally the kind of answers I've seen and what my hot take is on it. I'd be interested to hear thoughts.

  • I just feel like it. (Statement of identification, no specific rationale)

This one is hard to process. I don't understand how someone could know they feel like X if they have no rationale behind why they feel like X, nor can they really elaborate as to what X is. If you don't know what X is, how can you feel like it? Or maybe your feeling is something as-of-yet unidentifiable, but you're chalking it up to gender? Could be many reasons why that would happen.

  • I feel like it, because I was incongruous with the expectations of my ASAB in my youth.

This is probably the most common rationale I've seen. The specific items may vary -- dolls and dresses and action figures and whatnot -- but the principle is basically the same: I didn't act in the way that society would have expected me to act as a child.

Some issues I have with that:

(A) A boy who is gender non-conforming may not be a woman. They could just be gender non-conforming. There is nothing to suggest that stepping outside the boundaries of gender means you are a different gender.

(B) The idea that some things are inherently "girly" continues to perpetuate a gender stereotype that feminists have been fighting against for decades.

(C) The perception of what it would have been like to be the other gender is usually way off base, indicating that trans women are probably not viewing reality but rather some concept they've mocked up. One example that keeps coming up time and time again are slumber parties. I've seen these regularly mentioned by trans women, often with the implication they were somewhat sexual in nature. (Not accurate.) The perception of a childhood as a girl just seems way off base from what I've seen described by trans women, sounding more like a male fantasy than what actually happens.

  • I feel like it, because I enjoy women's things.

This is another common rationale. I would see, for example, posters asking "how do I know if I'm trans?" with the usual response being something along the lines of "cross-dress and see how it feels", "get your nails done", and so on and so forth. If you enjoy the activity, it would be considered a strong sign of being trans.

More issues:

(A) You can enjoy cross-dressing for many reasons that do not include being trans. There are many men who cross-dress and still consider themselves men, and the same goes for women. This is true for all supposedly "girly" things.

(B) By focusing on these external superficialities, it makes womanhood (and gender as a whole) seem like an aesthetic or something that you wear. This is why many gender critical women, including myself, see trans as essentially "womanface."

(C) This reinforces stereotypes that, again, feminists have fought against for years. A woman is a woman and knows she is a woman even if she's wearing a hoodie, sweatpants, no makeup and no nail polish. On the other hand, trans culture seems to embrace and adore the rigid gender expectations of woman, often exhorting questioners to participate in those gender expectations and share their glee when they do. It seems to be an exciting experience, often resulting in sexual arousal. This seems pretty far off base from what womanhood is from the female perspective.

(D) The heavy focus on external qualities seems, at least from my gender critical perspective, like womanhood is being reduced to the male gaze. The kind of revealing & inconvenient clothes that society says women must wear out of an expectation to please men are ultimately what these trans advocates equate with womanhood. Or in other words, a trans woman is not a woman but striving to be what a man thinks a woman is. The same goes for action and demeanor. Trans women often revel in the type of submissive stereotypes that women have rebelled against for a long time.

(E) It can really cross the line into some misogynistic territory, especially when womanhood is equated with submissiveness or sexual objectification. In fact, the fetishistic or near-fetishistic focus on leggings and dresses and so forth is a little troubling. Most trans communities online are inundated with sexualized depictions of little anime girls, an inordinate fixation on sex, hentai, etc. It can leave a bad taste in your mouth as a woman.

  • I'm dysphoric, and transition relieves my dysphoria.

The "diagnosis by treatment" hypothesis. I don't think trans people are making up dysphoria. And I'm sure that for many of them, presenting as a woman improves their mood and alleviates some of that dysphoria. But this doesn't make someone a woman. At best, it makes a man who is treating a mental health issue. How does this logically connect to the concept of womanhood?

In some cases, there are trans women who are clearly aroused by being a woman. Again, this does not make someone a woman, although it might mean they have a fetish. (I'm sure someone is going to say "well having that fetish doesn't make them not a woman" but my point is that having the fetish doesn't make someone a woman. I'm not trying to disprove it, I'm looking for proof that they are a woman. This is a different analysis.

Plus, as far as people tell me, dysphoria is not a requirement to be trans. So it's a moot point whether you have it or not.

  • Gender is what you want it to be.

If gender is really that meaningless, then I'm not sure how anyone can claim to be a woman (or a man for that matter.) To categorize, you need criteria for the category. If there are no criteria at all then why categorize? It would be meaningless.

Posted Apr 5, 2019, 10:23 PM UTC · edited

103129
peakingatthemoment•

Thanks for posting! I’m going to save this. You lay out and break down the various arguments very succinctly. I predict all the QT transwomen who reply will probably say that they don’t really believe they are women, because this would be difficult to push back against.

17
thrwpllw•

The major thorn that kept poking me back when I was 100% liberal feminist and trans-identified was, transwomen's descriptions of how they know they are women were never remotely relatable to me, a woman.

For years I accepted that this was because I'm actually a man. I already had dysphoria, so it just reinforced the idea I'd had since childhood, that if who I am conflicts with society's expectations of a girl then I must be the one who is defective.

But the inherent sexism of their descriptions always nagged. It was easy for me to accept that I'm defective (yay low self-esteem!), but it was much harder for me to say the same about, say, my mother, who also would not be a woman if transwomen's descriptions of womanhood were accepted.

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questioningTW•

Exactly! So many trans women talk about being obsessed with make up, fashion and other stereotypical stuff when a lot of the girls I grew up with were tomboys and resented femininity. Shit, even a lot of girly girls resent it.

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somegenerichandleneither GC nor QT•

I'd say concerning the second one, it's not explicitly childhood. But something i hear a lot is they don't feel like men, and hence must be women. Meanwhile women seem to want to be human. It really reminds me of the de beauvoir quote:

"Man is defined as a human being and woman as a female – whenever she behaves as a human being she is said to imitate the male."

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Aprze•

I'm a trans identified man (male to female). I think that fits me best because I consider myself a man that, for whatever reason, had a strong desire to be a woman. I personally don't think wanting to be female actually makes you one. Since transition, I am much better with the aesthetics of my body.

Before transition, I had issues with my sexuality (still do), was bullied for being feminine, short, and having a high pitch voice. I had body imagine issues where I hated looking in the mirror or being in pictures. I consider these possible causes for me eventually thinking I'm trans.

I think it's stupid and wish I knew the actual reason for being transgender. I do believe there is something biological with it, but only because we are walking bags of chemicals or emotional cucumbers, and other mental illnesses also tend to have biological/genetic issues.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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Aprze•

I am a natal male ie I was born with a penis and raised/socialized male. I had the desire to be female so I took feminizing hormones, had facial feminization surgery, and even genital surgery/vaginoplasty. I know it isnt a popular among trans people, but I don't think wanting to be a woman makes me a woman. At best, I consider myself a transwoman, honorary woman, or a mimic of a woman, but not a woman. If I could push a button to be a woman, I would do it. Hormones/surgery is the alternative to that non existing button and as close as I can get. Anyways, even after medical transition, I still present myself as a man.

My transition is pretty well documented on this account if you check out my profile.

I still consider it a transition since I still want to be a woman and made changes to make me more female-like. I don't want to be a man, but I feel it is what it is.

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[deleted]•

I'm a trans identified man (male to female)

I thought you were trolling, but then I checked your history. It seems you don't pass as male at all (based on what you have written about yourself), except to people who've known you through your transition. Why insist on identifying yourself as a man when most of the outside world sees you otherwise? Except for those who've known you for years, isn't going by the name Andrew forcing a lot of people to perform mental gymnastics and making life confusing for you? I'm asking in earnest and I definitely hope my questions don't come across as sarcastic/uncaring.

I stopped passing as male years ago and couldn't imagine continuing to insist I was a guy. People would, like in your case, genuinely think I was a woman with a male name, which made my life very confusing for a while. People who knew me from pre-transition knew me as male, newer people thought I was a woman (or FTM), and I never got to experience love/intimacy during that time (I'd ask myself, what identity do I present to the person I'm with, and to what end?). My family grew very distant from me over time as well, because although they didn't really notice any of the changes, it was obvious to them that everyone else thought I was a woman, which made them recognize that I was gender non-conforming on some level, but that I wouldn't want to acknowledge or explain it to them. I couldn't imagine having to keep all of that up for years.

I do respect where you're at though, and I hope you do whatever makes you happy, even if that means legitimately seeing yourself as a man/male. If, however, you don't want to be a man, and your experience out in the world tells you that people genuinely don't think you are one, then I'm not sure what to say. I understand that transition doesn't give us the same socialization and bodies we'd have if we were AFAB, but when the rest of the world doesn't notice these differences we obsess about, I think it's a bit pointless (and harmful, over a long period of time) to ruminate on them.

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Aprze•

No offense taken. I think they are honest thoughts and questions, and I know you are trying to help me.

For whatever reason, if I could push a button and be a woman, I would do it. I don't know why. That being said, I don't think wanting to be a woman makes you a woman like what many people say in the transgender community. I don't see how your mind dictates your body and society's definition of sex and gender. I don't see how the mismatch of mind and body isn't considered a mental illness and delusion, and I think the transgender community claiming it isn't a mental illness further stigmatizes mental illness as well. Mental illness often can result in harm to the patient until treated just like gender dysphoria. Mental illness often have biological and genetic backgrounds just the transgender community suggest with gender dysphoria, which is why both are treated medically. Medical transition makes sense to me. Social transition doesn't really make that much sense to me except maybe cognitive dissociation I think when you thinking doesn't match something else, so people maybe socially transition to avoid situations of cognitive dissociation, and this is probably always why most transgender people are very stereotypical of their identified/desired gender as well. It is clear that most people base your sex/gender on your reproductive parts, and people are aware that there are outliers and exceptions that still are usually determined via external reproductive parts. Ask most people their definition of male/female and you'll see that it has nothing to do with how we feel.

For me, being anything other than Andrew and male pronouns is an act. For 26 years before transition, I was always called Andrew, went by male pronouns, and used the men's bathroom/locker room. While people say they are afraid to use the men's bathroom because people will find out they are assigned male at birth, being assigned male at birth is exactly what makes me feel better about using the men's bathroom as well. The idea of going into the women's bathroom makes me uncomfortable because I know I am assigned male at birth. The people I care about most will likely never see me as female anyways and they matter more to me than strangers who perceive me as female.

I have shared my pictures and voice several times if you look further through my history.

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Hypocritical-Cunt•

isn't going by the name Andrew forcing a lot of people to perform mental gymnastics and making life confusing for you?

Setting aside how blatantly conservative of a position this is and how obvious it is that trans ideology relies on sexist stereotyping when you say stuff like this, I’m curious whether you also think Caitlyn Jenner and other non-passing transwomen should not go by the feminine sounding names they’ve chosen so as to avoid making people perform mental gymnastics? Only transwomen who look female should use feminine names, or..?

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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DimDroogGC but Open •

Thank you for your thoughtful, and incredible answer.

You sound like an interesting person.

What a wild upbringing.

I hope you are happy. :)

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[deleted]•

Thank you!!

You as well :)

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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Barbievive•

I think you have a pretty great set of summaries for the perspectives of a lot of trans women.

For me, I would say my body is male, and in terms of sex characteristics, a mix. A hybrid if I want to sound fancy.

Socially speaking, it's usually more comfortable and practical for me most of the time if I say I'm a woman or (more often) just don't argue with people who assume I am one.

In certain circumstances, it's necessary to clarify that I'm actually a trans woman, but in others, there's usually no real need.

Basically, I see myself as a woman because the vast majority of my social interactions reinforce the idea, I suppose? But I still acknowledge the differences between myself and non-trans women when appropriate.

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boxedin123(Non-replies != Agreement && Non-replies==ratherEatABowlOfTacks)•

+1 to this.

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MrFahrenheit46Transsexual Boy ♂⇌•

This.

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Barbievive•

Ohai :D

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MrFahrenheit46Transsexual Boy ♂⇌•

Hello! As you can tell, I kinda might possibly be a Queen fan.

1
Barbievive•

I assume I would tell from your username? Forgive me, I miss many references 😅

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CodeRed23•

(B) By focusing on these external superficialities, it makes womanhood (and gender as a whole) seem like an aesthetic or something that you wear. This is why many gender critical women, including myself, see trans as essentially "womanface."

That's a reasonable point of view in my opinion. I think some of the identity stuff that's happening now might a symptom of a society/civilization that is coming off the rails. The obsession with "self-identity" is extending individualism into the realm of absurdity. As a society we are fine with people living on the streets, living isolated and alone with no social support system, stuck in bad economic situations that mark them as "losers", not having access to adequate healthcare, drug addiction and other mental health disorders are at record levels and on and on. The only metric for "success" is money and at the same time wealth is being transferred to the top 0.1%, or whatever it is, like never before in history shutting increasing numbers of people out of the middle class. The wealthy and free west can be a shockingly cruel and dehumanizing place for people who find themselves on the margins of society and cast away like human garbage.

There are, of course, lots of countries in the world that are materially poorer, have terrible human rights records and so forth. However, many of these poor, "sh_thole" countries have something the west has done away with: close family and social connections where people look after each other. I lived in an African country for several years when I was younger and when I hear that "oh no people in countries like that aren't happy that's just a racist stereotype to justify the legacy of colonialism" I have to roll my eyes. Yes, it's absolutely true that the colonial powers f_cked up that continent and many, many problems persist. But in spite of that people in areas where basic food, water and shelter are affordable have a passion for life that is missing here and people who are used to needing "stuff" to make them happy can't wrap heads around that.

Anyway, my point is that the almost fanatical preoccupation with identity and the rifts and tensions around these issues are a symptom of a dehumanized, hyper-individualistic culture that produces people who are alienated from themselves and others. There is something obscene and decadent about a culture that prioritizes the right of a man to decide one day that he's really a woman or an Ewok over the right to healthcare or a living wage. Where cultural battles over identify inflame far more passions and get far more attention than matters of life and death that affect millions of people. This is not a healthy society.

I realize my post is jumbled and rant-y but I think my main points come through. I wonder..do people who are caught up in the things I mentioned and the battles over getting extra genders recognized or micromanaging gender-related language usage ever stop and think about how messed up that is in the context of all the other issues facing us? I didn't even mention climate change yet or the steady rise of a near fascist right wing. But back to gender, I live in a country where a person can get free gender reassignment surgery but if they need their teeth fixed, glasses or a hearing aid they have to pay out of pocket. Does not seem nuts? And in the context of the post I am replying to there is a huge problem still with sexual violence against women and girls, the feminization of poverty...things that have been issues for as long as I can remember but they never get really as much attention as the right of people to swap genders on a whim and demand everybody accept this as a norm. Homosexuality is far from accepted by everybody and there is still a lot of resistance from religious people...so how on earth did we arrive at the point where a not insignificant number of people expect swapping genders to be normalized immediately and accepted by everybody? And how dare you suggest that your 12 year-old cisgender kid is too young to have gender reassignment surgery! You must be a transphobic bigot!

Maybe this isn't the right forum..and this is not a well structured post and it probably has a lot of typos...but there aren't many places where these things are dicussed so I thought I'd put this out there. Honestly, I don't know what to think. This is just a theory that intuitively feels right but it is definitely a work in progress. Thank you for reading this far.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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yishengqingwa666•

Male entitlement.

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worried19•

Pain over their natal sex, for the most part. Particularly their body. They may not think they are women, but they do want to be, to alleviate that pain.

I agree pointing to gender stereotypes is harmful, but this a problem broader than just the trans community.

Trans women often revel in the type of submissive stereotypes that women have rebelled against for a long time.

Not all women, unfortunately. The number of natal women on Reddit who revel in sex stereotypes is hugely depressing. And these are the liberal feminist ones. It's even worse among conservative women, I'm sure.

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[deleted]•

It's even worse among conservative women, I'm sure.

This really reminds me of the study someone posted here about how they're trying to eliminate gender divergence // lesbianism in the womb; obviously you need maternal support to do something like that. And, at least in my personal experience, conservative mothers are some of the worst enforcers of gendered behavior, far more than even men. It's really saddening.

​

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worried19•

True in my experience. The only person who ever showed any interest in me being feminine was my conservative grandma. Fortunately, she wasn't aggressive about it, but that was her preference. Still is, I'm sure.

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questioningTW•

Conservstive women scare the hell out of me.

As for that article, I really hope it isn't true...if it is, then screw doctors trying to control harmless things and trying to force women into submissiveness.

I still don't understand though, that article was talking about preventing CAH which is an intersex condition right? Most lesbians and gender divergence isn't caused by being intersexed right?

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questioningTW•

Sometimes women frustrate me more then men do! I will never understand women that want to keep women down! We should want to be seen as equals!

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worried19•

I hear you. It's a major source of pain and turmoil to me, too.

Life as a woman wouldn't be so bad if all female people banded together against oppression and inequality. Sometimes it seems like most of them welcome those things instead. It depresses me.

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anotherthrowaway4277•

I feel like it because maleness just doesn't resonate with me. For me, being male feels like a curse and so I do what I can to move away from that.

Being a GNC guy isn't sufficient because I'd still be seen as a guy, male, which defeats the whole point of transitioning for me. There are some "girly" things I enjoy and some "manly" things I like, and I try not to let the associations of those influence me. It just so happens that I'm most comfortable presenting more femininely than masculinely, and in a way that lets most people believe I'm female unless I tell them otherwise.

(I also to be aware of which spaces I belong in and which I don't).

Even if sex change is out of reach right now, transitioning helps get me as close as I can get to being female, so it's better than nothing, or accepting that because I'm male I have to be seen as a guy, even a GNC guy.

4
kitcatkittycat•

I mean. I don't think many women are happy about being women tbh... The oppression we face can be so disheartening and just pile up on you. Femininity and maleness are both mostly societal things, so it makes sense that it wouldn't resonate with lots of people

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anotherthrowaway4277•

Maleness is a physical thing, masculinity is a societal thing. I kinda see both as oppressive.

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134Sophrosyne•

What is maleness?

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transmaiden•

A sex. That comes w/ a certain primary sex hormone, certain secondary sex characteristics, and certain sexed organs and other body features.

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134Sophrosyne•

When we think about it, it necessarily intertwines with the roles that sex assumes in society, in other words gender. Beyond using the blandest, most impartial, detached, anatomical and physiological language to describe sex quite technically, our impressions of sex are cultural and therefore necessarily part of the gender-field.

I'm very curious to find out what associations OP has with maleness to further explain why they think it doesn't resonate with them and why it is cursed.

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anotherthrowaway4277•

Being of the male sex and the physical differences that come with it. I also have problems performing masculinity, which is a different story, but yeah primarily it's about the body and sex characteristics.

2
SalukiKnightX•

Personally, I think it started with a kind of depersonalization when I was going through puberty. Like one day I could see myself in my dreams and then they were gone. It got even worse when this one day I saw myself in a bathroom in my high school senior year and couldn’t recognize myself even feeling disgusted, yet to the conventional eye I was a healthy young man. It got to a point where, if I went on a date I felt I was putting on a front feeling guilty I just went out on false pretenses (I’ve only dated 2 women, none as my current self). I didn’t come to the understanding that I was trans until I was 21 and by that point I just started enlistment so any changes would be put on hold until I was at least 27 (started self medding on my 26th birthday).

With all the changes in my life this decade. Part of me wished I started earlier but I feel that when I did it was the best time. While there’s been bumps in the road (lost out on various jobs, not able to afford insurance...) I can’t say that this wasn’t the best decision for me. Also, at the very least I can finally see myself in my mind again.

3
NineBillionTigers•

What leads a trans woman to believe they are a woman?

Identity formation is very complex, often pre- or sub-conscious, and often occurs at a young age. The answer is usually considered to be a combination of nature and nurture, where "nurture" is identified most commonly as specific family conditions, and "nature" being specific distributions of brain goop, usually cited as the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalmus, the limbic system, white matter superstructure, and colossal shape. Occasionally intersexual conditions are cited as well. Some queer advocates eschew prenatal and developmental science and advocate tabula rasa, claiming all sex-gender identity formation is due entirely to cultural and familial conditioning (or, more acutely, that prenatal and developmental conditioning is part of familial and cultural conditioning).

The answer is thus very similar to that of the question of what makes people with same-sex attractions believe they are gay, that they were not born in a "straight body," and that "being gay" could even be a way of living with post-natal physical implications for that body, emotional implications for the psyche, and social implications for status and power. In fact, some transwomen and gay people only complete their identity of "woman" or "gay" after, not before, these post-natal implications have been endured.

Here is one of my favorite quotes in Catherine MacKinnon's Toward a Feminist Theory of the State:

According to this [feminist] revision [of the concept of sexuality], one "becomes a woman" - acquires and identifies with the status of the female - not so much through physical maturation or inculcation into appropriate role behavior as through the experience of sexuality: a complex unity of physicality, emotionality, identity, and status affirmation, in which sexual intercourse is central.

However, to really get answers to this question, you will have to talk at length to each individual transwoman, because identity is, by definition, an individual phenomenon occurring in individual subjects. Many transpeople may have no good answer because they do not question their identity formation: they simply want to live comfortably and peacefully.

I hope my answer helped. Thanks for reading!

2†
Throwaway_Acc28•

Gay/Bi people don't feel like that though. They don't include their body when they're thinking about their sexuality. Often times if a person has been influenced by compulsive sexuality they would think that being heterosexual is the normal thing and so they would wish they weren't another sexuality. I don't why you compared sexuality with this when it isn't the same. LGB is about accepting yourself whereas the T is about changing yourself to fit the image of yourself you think you are.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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transmaiden•

Honestly I don't know. Brains are fucky. Trying to think about it makes my head hurt.

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L_The_Banana_KingPro-Trans•

On their own, this is a valid arguement, however, all put together, it makes sense. Trans women feeling dysphoric and enjoying feminine things and feeling GOOD when getting called she/her can all combine into identifying as a woman. I can’t speak for them myself, but as a trans man, that’s how I feel. Plus, there is evidence for trans people being valid.

0
sosososhockingOPGender Critical•

On their own, this is a valid arguement, however, all put together, it makes sense.

A mountain of bad arguments doesn't make a good argument.

Plus, there is evidence for trans people being valid.

I'll accept conclusion for the sake of argument. Let's say that trans people are validly the opposite gender from what was observed at birth, because these MRIs show gender-atypical functioning patterns. Does that mean that the only trans people would be those who show these patterns on an MRI? If someone claims to be trans but doesn't pass the MRI test, are they really trans? Should this test be used before someone is prescribed HRT or allowed to undergo SRS?

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Throwaway_Acc28•

It's been already proven that male and female brains don't exist.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/annm6l/2018_study_of_2176_human_brains_no_such_thing_as/?utm_medium=android

u/sosososhocking

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Ananiujithatryke-born-tryke•

When I started transitioning, I explained "I feel like I need to be a woman," and that this feeling just kept coming back.

I had thought that men felt the same way, and were just coping better, but I just couldn't relate to men's reactions to the idea of transition any more, and I could relate to trans women's accounts of transition.

But everyone expected me to explain that I was a woman. At a certain point it was easier and safer to say the same.

-1
JollyPurple•

What does a woman feel like?

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Ananiujithatryke-born-tryke•

Well I feel tired. But you may not consider me a woman. I don't know how you're feeling right now.

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JollyPurple•

So, that's a "No, I refuse to answer that question" then.

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Ananiujithatryke-born-tryke•

It's a trick question, and irrelevant to my reply to the original post.

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somegenerichandleneither GC nor QT•

Would you classify these as ANTs? Autonomous Negative Thoughts. I don't think they all are negative, per se. I get the thought "I want to be married" one and similar.

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Ananiujithatryke-born-tryke•

I don't know, I'm not familiar with the concept. I don't think this one's at all negative.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

-1†
sosososhockingOPGender Critical•

t's like making a wordcloud of all the various things you could call me sex/gender-wise and "woman" being the one in the biggest, boldest print.

Where would you get those words, though?

11
JollyPurple•

It's not a bad solution, in that it does neatly sidestep a lot of the more difficult-to-discuss questions of identity, but it is painfully limited in scope. It's also not as objective as it's usually put out there, and it's fairly easy to point out all the limitations of the model to the common frustration of many GC feminists sick of hearing the same objections over and over. I think some of that frustration might be mitigated if they accepted that their model is in fact a model and not an objective description of how identity works. The GC model is a claim, not an independent observation of reality, and it's an ideological and political claim to boot.

You are trying to say there's more to being a woman, and again that is placing more requirements on women. Why is it so wrong for woman to just mean the type of body one has, then allow a person to have the freedom to choose their personality, likes, dislikes, emotions, character they show to the world? We are objecting to women being anything other than a female sexed body because we don't want more chains placed on us. If we simply exist as female the world of opportunities are opened to us to behave and become whatever we want to be. Why is this so wrong? Women are the only oppressed group on Earth that people can just identify into without physically having the cause of women's oppression in the first place, which is our biology. Why is that okay?

You keep saying that we are wrong on the fact that we don't understand how identity works and that our views are ideological and political. But the thing is, without any sentience or consciousness, my female sexed body will still exist in the physical plane of reality, but identities would not as they are reliant on abstract thought. Which one can even be considered ideology and political claims at that point?

We are saying that identity is one thing, and the female sexed body is another. The problem we are having in communicating, is that you are combining identity and female sexed bodies, and then telling us we are wrong because we don't understand how identity works. The female sexed body and identities are completely different entities all together.

It's like making a wordcloud of all the various things you could call me sex/gender-wise and "woman" being the one in the biggest, boldest print.

What does woman mean in that wordcloud. In order to say, yes, that's me, you have to know what it is. What is it?

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SqueakyBall•

Is travelcupcake saying that you and I aren't really women? That we're doing womanhood wrong? That we aren't good enough because we don't have mysterious identity word cloud argle bargle?

Oh my dog, I've been living a lie for decades. But if I'm not a woman, what am I? Am I man? A blob, neuter? Help meeeee.

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JollyPurple•

Lesbian separatism a type of feminist separatism specific to lesbians. Many lesbian separatists bought land so they could live separately from men and heterosexual women.[15]

What does that have to do with anything I said?

You know what I meant when I said "why is it wrong." And if not, what I was trying to say is that transpeople are constantly fighting against women being able to name themselves separate from gender.

The word woman is used to describe female bodies. We have words to describe all the other stuff too. Identities are completely non-existent without conscience awareness. But a female sexed body exists even when life and conciseness dies. The female sexed body is not an identity of itself. It's the same as a door, or a car, or a refrigerator. They just simply exist. They only have alternative meanings if someone gives it to them. But if not, then they are just what they are. I am a woman in the sense that I'm just a door. It's not who I am. Just what I am. Who I am, my identity, are my thoughts, preferences, emotions, actions, likes, and dislikes. This blood bag of bones and female reproductive parts and chromosones is merely a house for my identity. It is not my identity itself.

And I'm curious, you are so dead set on making women an identity, despite the biological oppression of women. Do you think it's okay if people identify into all minority and oppressed groups too? Or is it just women? And do you think that every oppressed group is also just an identity?

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Maskbehindmasks•

I think women and man are social roles. Our society forced a binary and woman fits better so I use it. In a vacuum free of transphobia I wouldn’t mind a separate designation as simply trans woman but will always thoroughly object to man. It’s a role I dispise every facet of and have done everything I can to distance myself from it.

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sosososhockingOPGender Critical•

Thanks for your reply. What roles do you think are specifically that of a woman, that are causing you to identify this way?

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Maskbehindmasks•

It’s a combination of social expectations, appearances, basically the loose cluster of womanhood. That’s not to say there is value or that females put be held to those standards. Rather that society has formed the roles and expectations and that one fits me better. I wouldn’t object to the removal of the roles( my appearance and actions wouldn’t be changed) just that they ought come with the removal of transphobia.

I hope that made sense.

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sosososhockingOPGender Critical•

I see it as a "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" situation. You know, that famous painting of a pipe with those words underneath which means "this is not a pipe." Because it's not a pipe, it's a representation of a pipe. It's not the same as a pipe. In this case, the "womanhood" you describe is a representation of womanhood as presented by patriarchal expectations. It's a painting, and in my opinion, a pretty poor one.

​

And if conformity to patriarchal notions of womanhood is what constitutes being a trans woman, and if trans women are women, then by the transitive property it stands to reason that conformity to patriarchal notions makes a woman... and you don't need a gender studies degree to understand why that would drive feminists up the wall. I just can't see it as anything other than being actively anti-feminist in fact.

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Maskbehindmasks•

I think you could be a trans woman without fitting in socially as a woman, say becaus one couldn’t transition or didn’t pass and just didn’t fit the woman role well despite being dysphoric and wanting to transition. But that’s a bit of a fine point.

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JollyPurple•

It’s a combination of social expectations, appearances, basically the loose cluster of womanhood.

Please, explain them, in detail. What are they? What is woman?

Why conform to the roles? Why not dismantle them? Why are these roles given the names for the adult male and female humans instead of having their own names? Do you think that your are reinforcing sexism and oppression of women by association of these roles to the word woman which is meant for the female sex?

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Maskbehindmasks•

Common sense, appearance characteristics etc. the specifics don’t really matter because it’s flexible by nature. A cluster definition if you meet enough criteria our society slots you into women and it’s easier if you use that label because man wouldn’t work and a third option isn’t offered.

I differentiate woman from female. Man/woman are social roles . Hence “be a man”, “man up”, “act like a man” etc.

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worried19•

Where does that leave us natal female people, though?

If "man" is a negative social role, then "woman" is worse. The "woman" role is seen as inherently inferior. It seems like it would be more feminist and egalitarian to try to dismantle the roles altogether.

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Maskbehindmasks•

I mean go for it. It’s about how things are not how they should be.

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worried19•

Well, by saying it's a social role and you're opting in, aren't you helping to perpetuate it?

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Maskbehindmasks•

I don’t think so. Recognizing a social role that exists isn’t endorsing it as an ideal state.

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