Source
r/rpg•
im_pythonic

Beginner help with Cleric in D&D 3.5e

I have a few questions that I can't seem to find a definite answer to. 1a) How many spontaneous castings can I do in a day? 1b)Does it make sense to just prepare all non healing spells and then SC healing spells when I need them? 1c)Which spells can a chaotic good cleric cast? (besides non-evil spells like inflicts) 2)Currently I have been told that I need to do a concentration check, beating 10+spell lvl, to actually successfully cast the spell, even when nothing is near me or happening to me. Is that right? How do I go about casting if that is not he right way? Do I just say ok I'm casting Cure moderate wounds on this guy and then roll for how much I heal?

I have the players handbook 3.5e and I have read it but it doesn't answer it specifically enough for me I guess. EDIT: How would SC work with +1 to caster level? I sacrifice a level 3 prepared spell for a level 4 healing spell?

Posted Mar 9, 2010, 7:46 PM UTC · edited

845
Stiletto•

1a) you can spontaneously cast as many spells of each level as your total for the day.
1b) I never prepare healing spells for my dwarven cleric. You can swap them at will for a healing spell of the same level just as if you had prepared it with no penalties. 1c) I don't have my book with me, hopefully others will answer this one

  1. You don't need to make a Concentration check unless: a) you are in a roughly moving vehicle (fast wagon or ship in high waves) or on an animal (riding a horse fast) or in an sufficiently strong earthquake b) you were just hit by a spell or an attack of opportunity WHILE casting the spell c) distracted by certain spells

  2. Most (not all) healing spells are touch spells, if you're right next to the subject you just cast the spell (a standard action) and touch them. If you need to move to the subject, you cast the spell (a standard action) then move to the subject (a move action) and touch him (part of the spell's standard action). You do not require a to hit roll to touch an ally, they don't need to save and spell resistence is automatically bypassed at will by the subject.

Some spells say: Concentration plus 3 rounds (and such) that's only for how long the spell lasts. You must be concentrating on the spell for it to be active and you can't cast other spells. If you lose concentration for any reason (like 1a, 1b, 1c) your spell ends in 3 rounds (or however many the spell says).

Long story, short: Normally, you do NOT need to make a concentration check to cast a spell

6
Hilarius•
  1. You also need to make a concentration check when within melee range of an opponent if you want to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity.

If you are casting a touch spell to target that opponent, they still get an attack of opportunity on you for you attempting to hit them, I believe.

5
im_pythonicOP•

Unless I say I am casting defensively?

2
wedgiey1•

Yep, casting defensively is a DC15 + Spell Level. Alternatively you can take the attack and hope they miss (anyone know if this is flat-footed?) or if they hit you, make a concentration check of DC10+Damage+Spell Level. Personally, I'd assume they won't hit me, I usually have pretty high AC.

2
[deleted]•

No, you're not flat footed just because you triggered an opportunity attack.

2
wedgiey1•

Yes, but you can cast the touch spell, then move in to touch them. Also, if you miss, you can hold that spell's charge and try again.

*Edit: Wait, if a concentration check prevents the attack of opportunity, they don't get to attack you even if you try to touch them. Once your spell is charged they have to treat your hand as a weapon.

2
Hilarius•

Is that how that would work? I haven't seen anything that says your touch is treated as a weapon now.

When you cast a spell next to an opponent, you have to cast defensively (make a concentration check) to prevent from incurring an AoO from the opponent and so you cast it properly. Then, depending on how the rules are, when you try to touch the person, you either do or don't get an attack of opportunity against you.

Edit: Ah, I found what you are talking about. Under Attacks of Opportunity for "Armed" Unarmed attacks.

3
wedgiey1•

Yep, if you have a spell charged, trying to reach out and touch someone certainly does not provoke an opportunity attack.

As an aside, does anyone know about ranged touch attacks? I imagine they would...

1
Stiletto•

No, you don't need to do a concentration check when within melee range of an opponent to cast your spell, you do only if they attack of opportunity you and HIT you. If they don't do anything to you, it doesn't affect you. If you know they've used their Attack Of Opportunity for that round (and they don't have that feat that gives them multiple attacks of opportunity) you can ignore them.

1
wedgiey1•

Do clerics have any spells that take more than a round to cast? Even spiritual weapon doesn't require concentration to maintain...

2
Hilarius•

Restoration for one. There are others.

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wedgiey1•

That's one I hope I never have to cast in combat; lol

1
Hilarius•

Were you talking about spells to cast in combat? I usually relegate my actions to standard or lesser in combat, so I wouldn't know. But I have seen spells that you channel to make it more powerful. I don't remember if it was a cleric spell though.

1
[deleted]•

Control Weather?

1
[deleted]•

1a) As many as you can

1b) Yes, that's exactly what you want to do.

1c) Any spells without the "law" or "evil" descriptor.

  1. Unless something is distracting you, no, you do not need a concentration check.
3
Leahn•

Actually he does, but the book assumes you will take 10.

1
[deleted]•

Really? I never saw rules to that effect. Cite?

2
Leahn•

I can't open the official SRD here at work, but the part that talks about casting spells states that you must beat DC 10 + level of spell to cast it. Or maybe I am just confusing it. Either way, it clearly states that you must concentrate to cast a spell, and taking 10 is basically described as concentrating in the task at hand.

1
[deleted]•

From the page you linked:

Concentration: You must concentrate to cast a spell. If you can’t concentrate you can’t cast a spell. If you start casting a spell but something interferes with your concentration you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell.

Note, no check is required until something interferes with your concentration. This is the same reason you don't make a balance check on ordinary ground.

This is an important distinction because not every wizard trains concentration, and if magic missile is DC 11, you don't want a wizard with no training and +0 con to have to roll the dice or lose the spell.

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wedgiey1•

If that's the case, I would try to cast really high level spells and just beat the roll for them every now and then.

2
Stiletto•

You don't have to take 10 or any type of Concentration check to simply cast a spell. If you really did have to take 10 plus a concentration check that means no matter what spell you're casting, there is always a 5% chance that it would fail (because you rolled a 1 on a d20 which we all know is always a miss/fail).

2
wedgiey1•

1c) You cannot cast Law or Evil spells. They will have the descriptor in the... well, description. For example, you could not cast "Protection from Good" because it is an evil spell.

Don't forget about your domain spells!

2
MasterAaron01•

1b) It's important to note the semantics on spontaneous casting. You can't convert to any healing spell - only a Cure spell. (It's specifically phrased as "any spell with "cure" in its name".) That means that you can't convert to Heal, or Vigor, or anything but Cure X Wounds spells and their Mass versions.

1c) That depends on your deity somewhat. You can't cast any spells opposite your alignment or your deity's alignment. So if you're a CG cleric worshiping a LG god, for example, you couldn't cast Law, Chaos, or Evil spells.

  1. As a rule of thumb, you only need to make a Concentration check to cast a spell if you're severely distracted by something. Anything that's really jostling you (like a galloping horse or a ship in high seas) would do that, as would taking damage, as would a blinding light suddenly appearing in front of your eyes. Normally you can trust the DM to tell you when a Concentration check is required, but it sounds like your DM doesn't really understand the way magic works. You have my sympathies.

  2. In response to your edit: If you're not familiar with that famous comic strip about levels, well, now you are, and you've fallen into just this sort of trap. There are (insofar as I recall) four important level-based terms for a spellcaster: character level, class level, spell level, and caster level. Every one of these is different - they are not interchangeable.

  • Character level refers to your total experience level - if you sum up your levels in all classes and prestige classes, it's that number.
  • Class level is your advancement in a single class or prestige class. This comes up to determine the power of some abilities.
  • Spell level refers to the inherent power of a spell. No matter what any of the other levels are doing, fireball will always be a 3rd level spell.
  • Caster level refers to your individual power as a spellcaster. (Actually, it's one of several things that determine that, but it's the one that you're confused about.) This one's pretty complicated sometimes, unfortunately. Your caster level is: your class level in the appropriate casting class plus appropriate modifiers. Seems simple; it ain't always.

There's an optional bit at the bottom of this post which explains the most common complexities, which you should read, but the basic response to the question you asked is that caster level and spell level are unrelated to each other, and spontaneous casting deals with spell level. So when you convert a 3rd level spell into a Cure spell, that Cure spell will always need to be 3rd level or lower, regardless of any improvements you have to your caster level. However, since your caster level is higher, the spell will be slightly stronger once you cast it.

Begin complex explanation of caster level: To illustrate caster level, let's take your cleric. Hypothetically, he's level 5, with all of those levels as a cleric. That makes his caster level for cleric spells 5. Now, for a typical character, he'll probably keep advancing as a cleric, or take a prestige class that improves his cleric spellcasting, so by character level 8 he'll probably have caster level 8 for his cleric abilities. Let's make things more complex though. At level 6, instead of taking another cleric level, you decide that you want more melee oomph and multiclass to fighter. Fighters don't cast cleric spells, so his caster level is still 5. At level 7, you have an inexplicable desire to explore new divine magic, and take a level of druid. Now your caster level is 5 cleric, and 1 druid - those two cast different spells, and don't stack. Finally, at level 8, you take a level of the Thaumaturgist prestige class (we'll say that you meet prereqs). Like many PrCs, Thaumaturgist gives you spellcasting advancement - you pick one class each time it says that you improve your spells, and you gain new spells per day and an increased caster level for that class' spells. You decide to buff up your druidness, so your final tally at character level 8 is: caster level 5 cleric, caster level 2 druid.

2
im_pythonicOP•

oh wow, thanks for the write up. That def makes sense now and I talked to my GM and he agrees that he was doing some of the stuff wrong, like conc checks and stuff. I appreciate everyone taking the time to explain things thoroughly. As far as the spells go, I can't cast Law, Evil, or chaos. So can I cast Inflict minor wounds but not Deathknell? Because inflict minor wounds doesnt say evil where as Deathknell does say evil. Even though they are both necro school.

1
MasterAaron01•

Just to make sure that you didn't misinterpret my post - what god do you worship? What's his alignment? The example that I gave was for a Lawful Good deity and a Chaotic Good cleric. If you worship a non-Lawful god, you can still cast Chaos spells. A True Neutral cleric with a True Neutral deity can cast all four alignment descriptors.

And you're exactly right on the spells. Spell school doesn't matter, only the alignment descriptor. The necromancy school will typically have a lot of the evil spells on your list, but it's not intrinsically evil. It also includes spells like blindness/deafness and gentle repose. On the other hand, watch out for spells with variable alignment descriptors. The summon monster and planar ally spells have the alignment descriptors of the creatures that you summon, so you would not be permitted to conjure demons. And the protection from alignment and magic circle against alignment spells have the keyword opposite the protection they grant, so that protection from evil is a Good spell and magic circle against law is a Chaotic spell. The more flexible spells are sometimes of variable alignment, so be aware.

1
im_pythonicOP•

I am CG and worship Pelor. glad to hear its not just by spell school.

1
MasterAaron01•

Mmkay. Pelor is Neutral Good, so you're set for your Chaos spells. Glad to help.

1
wedgiey1•

I think your 1c point is moot because you can't more than 1 deviation away on your personal alignment and your deities alignment. So it would be impossible to have a Chaotic Good cleric worshiping a Lawful Good deity.

1
MasterAaron01•

Ah, right - I forgot about that. My 3.5 group had a minor houserule that you could be different from your deity on a single axis, not just a single deviation on one axis. (So a Lawful Good deity could have a Lawful Evil priest - that character was cool.) I was just used to that rule.

1
[deleted]•

+1 to caster level doesn't let you boost a SPELL level. It does boost the power of a spell. LIke, cure light wounds is 1d8+1 per caster level (max 5, IIRC.) So +1 to caster level would let a level 3 cleric heal for 1d8+4, as well as cast at longer ranges, etc.

1
im_pythonicOP•

Ok that makes sense. The +1 level just counts towards the +1/lvl on certain spells. Thank you for an example too.

2
Leahn•

1a) As many as you have prepared spells.

1b) Yes, that is what SC is suposed to be for.

1c) You got me here, sorry.

2a) Technically correct, but you can just take 10 instead in such situations.

2b) Yes, declare that you are casting the spell, if the DM wants you to roll concentration, declare that you are taking 10 since nothing is distracting you, then roll for how much you heal.

0
im_pythonicOP•

Awesome thank you for clearing that up, I lost a few spells the other night because I failed a conc check when I didn't need to do one and a player went into the negs. I figured that it couldn't be that difficult.

1
wedgiey1•

When would 2a ever actually need to be rolled for? If you're reciting a higher level scroll or something? Also, the player would get to add their caster level to their roll, right? Basically making it a wash every time? Otherwise taking 10 wouldn't beat a 10 + spell level....

1
Leahn•

I am not sure anymore, it seems I was wrong on the issue. I'd have to review the books and talk to a friend that is a mage specialist. I am more of a monk specialist. I'd say kick the nuts of the DM if he asks for this again, then.

2
wedgiey1•

I agree, making you do a concentration check when you're not in a threatened space deserves a kick in the nuts. That or throw a d4 at him; those things hurt.

*Edit: Left out 'not'... /mutter

1
Leahn•

A d4 would be proper. Isn't it the damage of sling shots?

2
sepulchravegroan•

D&D after the second edition has been the single greatest obstacle in my enjoyment of anything role play.

-1
AligaTC•

Awww. I think you just haven't been playing with the right people ;)

2
sepulchravegroan•

Sigh. You are correct, I am just bitter cause nobody wants to play with me :(

1
[deleted]•

Where are you located?

1