Source
r/Portland•
Treecrust

Beware of "World Wide Group" aka Amway!

So I was at work and some dude in a suit came in and I told him he looked nice. He said he just got done speaking at a conference about success. We got to talking and I mentioned the fact that I was just trying to be a more positive person and be around more positive people. Exchanged numbers and met up for coffee. Got to get to know him better and he was from where I'm from and everything. I thought I was making a friend. He kept mentioning that he wanted to get me into a room with all of these successful people and really wanted me to meet his mentor.

Soooo tonight I went to check it out because, hey, why not. Presentation was okay up until about an hour in which is when I started to smell bullshit. Not long after I smelled bullshit, the name Amway came floating in. I should have gotten up and walked out right then and there but there were too many goddamn people in the way. The way they spoke about it was as if this was a once in a lifetime opportunity and if you didn't accept it then you were going to go back to your menial life and would never have anything. As if this was the only answer to your money problems. Scuse me bitch, but I've got a plan.

There were some serious bad vibes/cult vibes going on in that room. At the end I'm sure he could tell that I wasn't about to buy whatever he was selling. He told me that his mentor had a family emergency or something. Probably because he knew that I wasn't about to be sold anymore bullshit by anyone and I would have insulted his mentor. So yeah.

Sad thing is that the dude who brought me there isn't what I would call stupid. He's really nice... just brainwashed as fuck. I could tell that on the car ride home he just completely tuned me out when I questioned him as to why and what he was doing. They're made to shun anyone who questions them.

Shit was wack. This was in Vancouver by the way. Close enough to Portland. All of the threads that I have read about this have been posted within the past year and in the Portland area so they must be very active here. Stay away from this cult shit.

Posted Apr 12, 2019, 9:50 AM UTC

132122
ccprocal•

I smelled bullshit at "conference about success".

115
FyzzleSt Johns•

Success

16
tiamdiSE•

Knew what it was before even clicking on it

10
LetFiefdomReign•

You gotta admit, the guy's got sweet tits.

Really needs to stop shaving them though.

2
TreecrustOP•

I had to take the chance and see what it was about! When I got in the room the smell of bullshit was so strong hahaha. These people were trying really hard!

5
pangolins48•

I would have said that "Wow, the aroma in here is very telling!"

3
I_Love_To_Poop420•

Betsy DeVos’ husband is heir to the Amway fortune. That should be enough for everyone to avoid working for/buying from Amway.

58
Counterkulture•

Erik Prince (Blackwater founder) is also her brother.

Family of amoral shitbags, from top to bottom.

Imagine a competition between the Devos's and the Trump's for which family is more full of complete human excrement.

21
detroitdoesntsuckbaddickbutt•

He's also a great sailor. If anyone was curious.

4
I_Love_To_Poop420•

I heard they have a yacht scheduler. Imagine owning so many yachts, you need assistance bringing them to port and back depending on which one you feel like taking out for a spin. Meanwhile, she tried to defund the special olympics for budget cuts. I absolutely take zero issue with calling her a cunt.

10
pangolins48•

Well, not everyone. Not people who admire Betsy, right? Confirmation bias, verdad? As for labeling someone based on spouse, don't forget that Kellyanne Conway's hubby shares your opinion (I assume) of Trump. And let's not forget (if only we could!) Matalin and Carville ...

-9
pdxrunner86•

My sister is a psychiatric nurse practitioner who still manages to get sucked into pyramid schemes over and over again. She bugs the hell out of me with her Amway crap. Most recently, she told me about this super exciting healthcare conference she attended in Dallas and wanted me to watch some videos about it. I declined and she got mad. She brags about her 6-figure income and then talks about how she’s in debt. She and her fiancé spent over $1000 to attend this conference. MLMs are the devil.

38
combatwombat007•

Smart people do dumb things all the time. In fact, a few studies have shown that smarter people are actually more susceptible to scams because smarter people are more confident in their abilities to spot scams despite the fact that book smart ≠= street smart.

Dunning-Krueger Effect in full force.

7
Counterkulture•

There's a specific personality type that's susceptible to scammers, aside from intelligence. Con artists are fucking masters at spotting these people with these specific personality types.

Although, within that personality type, there's also an intelligence spectrum, obviously. And then you take the fact that the more intelligent someone is-- very generally-- the more likely they'll be to have money/assets/be successful.

6
pangolins48•

My mother, an educated woman, fell prey (twice!) to people asking for her bank info, and she even (sigh) got sucked in by the "This is your niece and I'm in jail" garbage. When we (her kids) tried to warn her she got defensive and said "I was raised in a trusting generation" and I said "So if a hobo came to the door you would hand him money without question, and if a man said he would fix your roof 'the next day' you would pay him up front? Even in your youth there were con artists." She had to change her bank account TWICE. And she was incapable of call screening or simply HANGING UP. My sister was actually in the room when one of the conners called, my mom just started chatting (this was part of the problem, wanting to TALK TALK TALK) and my sister kept saying "Mom, HANG UP" and my mom insisted that she wasn't raised to be "rude." Jeeeeezzzz......these people invite rudeness!

6
TreecrustOP•

I'm kind of insulted that he pegged me out to be an easy mark. I was just trying to make a friend, but I don't need friends THAT badly. Those people aren't your friends anyways.

2
Counterkulture•

Yeah, it could also be because that person was desperate, too, and they were just going for anybody they knew or who would give them the time of day.

5
pangolins48•

Dunning-Kruger, yeah. Miscalibration to the nth. Common syndrome.

2
MaxHouser•

I swear there has to be a better set of terms then. The way I always assumed it was supposed to be understood, being smart meant you were the least likely sort of person to be susceptible to scams . I still think this is the best way to understand and explain intelligence in general.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
pangolins48•

yes, I have a friend who seems to leap from one con to another. Right now it's some book about changing her body's pH (if I try to send her the "science" about things she usually balks), another time it was a"youth recovery" product made from mucus off cows' udders or something. With that one, she spent money and finally got out because it was "too expensive" not because it was duck duck duck duck (quack quack quack). oh, that just reminded me of ANOTHER friend who has a master's and is SOOOO educated and yet has a "reader" (a human) who tells her about the future by PHONE (when I once pointed out the prediction that didn't come true she just said "I don't know" about what it meant). And what about people who think that the Myers-Briggs "profile" is indicative of ANYTHING, it might as well be astrology ... oh, that reminds me of yet another friend (we've lost touch) who has a degree in Anthropology and is soooo smart yet is SURE that astrology is "true"

3
tropicofpracer•

I had a very smart friend that was obsessed with all things 'woo' & getting himself into MLM's of all varieties for quite a few years. He had that personality type and I surmise some PTSD from a tragic death in his family that just caused him to gravitated towards that flavor of bullshit. I have been a dark skeptic since I was about 11 years old, this has been getting me into tough conversations for most of my adult life.

2
Projectrage•

Many younger 30 people are being pitched this cause, they are a generation that has never learned about amway, and the scam they are.

They are so shitty, that they lie when booking venues in Portland, they go under different business names to hide they are amway.

26
Counterkulture•

The middle class disappearing, student debt skyrocketing, housing instability skyrocketing, medical bills killing people, gig economy taking over, automation coming online, benefits and pensions being obliterated... It's a target rich environment for scammers and con artists. And it's only gonna get worse.

3
TreecrustOP•

I was honestly surprised that he even told us it was Amway rather than just saying World Wide Group. He only said Amway once and he said it so quickly. Like he was embarrassed. Then immediately moved onto World Wide Group and everyone in there immediately started cheering. Fucking brainwashed hahaha

1
Illinois_smith•

Yeah, when I went to the intro meeting where all the newest members brought in us randoms from the street the speaker/chapter leader used a giant writing pad when explaining how the business worked. I noticed he only verbalized "Amway" a couple times but never physically wrote it down. I'm guessing that's because they're trained to not physically have it somewhere a photo can be taken of and spread around online.

1
drchainsawsMAX Blue Line•

Look out for "Puryear Group" also.

1
TheMiddling•

My step father got into Amway in the 90’s. I remember that he would go to the meetings/conferences and spend a fair amount on the “coaching” audio tapes and the various books the featured speakers would have. He would listen to nothing else, and write down bits from each that he would the tape or postit to the mirrors and widows in the house.

He then started to replace most of the household products and food with the nearest amway equivalents and referring to literally everything else as “brand X”

None of us liked the amway products. There was always something off about them. The shampoo fragrance was a bit too strong. The microwave food a little too rubbery. If we ever said that we didn’t like the products or bought something else he would get angry and often times throw out what we had bought when we were not around.

I remember once after I had been disparaging the products and complaining about the institution of amway as a whole he said, “just go with me to one meeting, and if you get nothing out of it, I will pay you 20.00.” He had been trying to get everyone in the family to go to the meetings to no avail and 20.00 was no small sum for me at the time so I agreed.

I stood in a corner listening to the speakers talk about the success in their lives. Often times this success had nothing to do with amway, but they always brought the stories back around to it. “And now I apply the same determination that I did at the olympics to building my business, and I’ve never been happier!”

When the speakers were done my step father approached and asked with confidence and enthusiasm, “Well? Did you learn anything?” I looked him in the eye and told him “no” and I’ve never seen someone deflate so much. I was not fond of my step father, but in this moment I felt really bad and tried to play coy about the situation like, “and even if I did, it’s not in my interest to tell you. We’re all about success here and that’s 20.00 I didn’t have before.” Or something like that. This perked him up a little and for years every birthday or Christmas I got a new amway related book or audio.

In the end after all the money, aggravation, and eventual alienation of almost everyone he knew (This had to do with other issues as much as amway, but the “business” served as a catalyst) he was no better off, and never found the prosperity he was looking for.

tl:dr Amway is a scam

26
Beardgang650•

I like to call it Scamway

7
pangolins48•

Hahaha, great line about the Olympics. "I'm Paris Hilton and Amway works for me ..."

5
AquaSquatch•

World Wide Dream Builders is the name.

20
[deleted]•

[deleted]

7
pangolins48•

Mary Kay!

0
TreecrustOP•

They were calling it World Wide Group this time. I think that they change up the name every so often as to not show up in a Google search.

6
drchainsawsMAX Blue Line•

This is one of the reasons for sure. This was a name they were using back in 2013 as well.

In Boise I got roped into a meeting because a woman came to my work and approached me about a "side job." She complimented my customer service skills as a way to soften me up. I was 27 and aimless.

2
pangolins48•

And this reminds me too of Werner Erhard (aka John Rosenberg) and "The Hunger Project," and my really wonderful employee who just BEGGED us (me, his colleagues) to attend sessions and was heartsick that we would NOT. "Oh, it's not the same as EST" he would say .... eeeeek.

1
SybianMobileDisco•

Oh man, this is the kind of stuff that really contributes to my misanthropic leanings. Although a valuable lesson was learned here; it's safe to assume that anyone in a suit is probably lying to you.

14
Super_Asshole•

Fuck MLMs, but saying anyone in a suit is probably lying to you is as stupid as saying don’t trust anyone over 30.

1
pangolins48•

No, it's a sliver. Look at the aggregate! There is no species as spectacular as Homo sapiens! And really, why hate the pusher and not the junkies?

-1
ByMyself•

Same thing.. went to this new Crossfit gym with my husband. This couple was very nice to us, and after a few times working out together the guy started talking about this “business opportunity” that he only shares with us because he likes us. But that we are not ready yet. Offered to meet at Starbucks (so cliche).

We were like.. oh, sure, maybe he wants to build an app or something, since my husband and I are both in tech. Nope... he starts talking about how he wants to be rich, and do we want to join this movement... or just sit on the sidelines being miserable working 9 to 5 (I love my 9 to 5 btw). He started saying something like.. “you know John from the gym? He almost paid off his car already, that’s how well he is doing. “ and things along the lines of “if they tell me to shovel dirt for 2 years but it guarantees me to be successful, I would shovel dirt”. He asked us what’s our happiness level on a scale from 1 to 5 (I said 4 and he didn’t expect that) :)

Anyways... it ended up being amway. And we told him that we are not interested. He was trying to give us a book to read “Giver”. We are like.. eh, nope.

12
1995_Shitbox•

He almost paid off his car already, that’s how well he is doing

If this is that guys definition of rich I'd run away in both directions.

18
mokshahereicome•

Well if it’s a 1995 Shitbox and there’s a loan out on it, then I’d say that John has severe financial issues

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

6
mokshahereicome•

Blood suckers trying to sell people that happiness and success is having just slightly more money. I’ll be honest though your first mistake was going to a CrossFit gym

4
clive_bigsbySE•

I’ll be honest though your first mistake was going to a CrossFit gym

I think in the MLM biz they call that a "target-rich environment."

9
SlowLoudEasy•

Is owning your car the measure to success? Cause Ive never had a car payment in my life.

2
mokshahereicome•

Neither have I looks around nervously is this success ??

3
SlowLoudEasy•

We did it!

2
bearbait60•

Were these the actual crossfit box owners?

2
ByMyself•

No, but after I talked to the owners about it, they were like... yeah.. we buy amway shakes and supplements from them..

2
bearbait60•

That surprises me. If I was the owners I would be upset someone was using my fitness business based on "community" to recruit people for a pyramid business

2
pangolins48•

What is the lure to "get rich" and "acquire wealth?" I would always say "No, not interested in materialism or a higher tax bracket, not my thing"

1
ReadySetN0NW•

Amway, Herbal Life, Advocare, just some of the shitty MLMs to steer clear of.

11
mokshahereicome•

Man idk that sounds great. I want to be successful. Got his number ?

10
ottilie•

the carpooling with someone you don't really know could be a mistake. I've been to events including camping where it turned out a bad personality ruined it and then you couldn't get away.

4
mokshahereicome•

Very true. Getting in a car with a stranger is always dangerous. They could be a serial killer or an MLMer

6
TreecrustOP•

I was prepared to take a Lyft or an Uber home if things got weird or bad

1
BetaBeto•

These scumbags prey on (what they assume are) lower income folks.

My first run-in with an Amway cretin was in Winco, shortly after moving to the area in 2012. The guy started with some small talk so I thought he was just being nice. After I said that I sell things online as a side job/hobby, he told me he could help expand it and invited me to (what I thought was a one-on-one) meeting. I didn't link this "opportunity" to Amway until we arrived at the meeting location to see a parking lot full of cars. I immediately wanted to turn around, but I'm a nice guy and didn't want to be rude so I went in and listened to the spiel. At the end they asked me if I was ready to begin my journey (or some crap like that) and I basically told them I don't want to be anywhere near this scam. Let's just say they don't like criticism.

Fast forward to now - whenever I get approached by randos (usually in a thrift store) that start off with "Hey man, nice shoes/haircut/jacket/etc" I say thanks and put up a cold shoulder.

​

TL;DR - Amway reps are predators and try to suck you in with small talk/compliments. Even if you are a nice person, be rude. Consider it practice for them.

10
pangolins48•

yeah what surprises me is how many people have an aversion to "being rude." Excuse me? These individuals have earned courtesy? And what is rude about saying "Um, no thanks" and bailing? It's not rude to hurl a witty rejection a la Bill Maher or Zach Galifianakis either! I mean, you needn't fear for your life.

2
TechnicalExampleFremont Bridge•

Had a woman pull a similar trick on me. Asked me out to meet, during coffee invited me to the conference about success and wealth, it ended up being an AmWay pitch.

8
Trenalynn•

My husband met a seemingly nice guy at an internship of his during college. The guy invited us to dinner with him and his wife. It didn’t take long for them to go into the spiel about some pyramid scheme. I don’t remember if he ever said the name of it. He literally drew a pyramid to show the structure on a napkin then proceeded to say it wasn’t a pyramid scheme.

He kept saying we would be making money selling. But whenever we asked what they we selling, he would just say, “anything!”

We noped out of there as fast as we could.

4
demilyrose•

It’s a reverse funnel system

2
combatwombat007•

The more advanced of the "network marketing" businesses have the indoctrination down to a science. They know that people are naturally wary of their business-type, so they've developed a number of psychological/mindset markers that they train their recruits to probe for before ever naming the company or products they're promoting.

It allows them to convert the people they deem a "good fit" at higher rate while simultaneously avoiding confrontation with those who aren't.

1
pangolins48•

YES! He drew a pyramid! You should have drawn a hangman ...

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

8
snf3210Ross Island Bridge•

I just spent so much time checking out that sub just now.

Didn't really realize the extent of physical product stuff as well like Mary Kay and doTerra, etc pushing products a la MLM.

2
occamsracerMt Tabor•

Somewhat related: Escaping NXIVM.

Highly recommended

Uncover: Escaping NXIVM - Episode 1.

Sarah Edmondson is a high-level member of a self-help group called NXIVM, but an invitation to join a secret women's group called DOS leads her to do something she later regrets. https://podcast-a.akamaihd.net/mp3/podcasts/uncover-A16Jv6PM-20180904.mp3

7
muskogeesmalls•

Saw them cover this topic on an episode of Law and Order sometime last year. There's a good 20/20 episode on it on Hulu. The famous actress (from Smallville, forgot her name) just pleaded guilty to a slew of charges within the past few days.

2
pawcycle•

I went to the Landmark Forum on the recommendation of a friend. I’ve done some personal development work in the past and thought this would be similarly helpful. It was not. The promise of a transformation should have been the first clue. Landmark preys on people in vulnerable moments—it’s clever how they break people down. It’s also dangerous and careless how they “Help” people through really shitty experiences. It felt like a tent revival at best.

7
jimfromtaxi22•

Fuck landmark forum

6
PDXPLUMBER•

Landmark forum, brought to me by my bat shit girlfriend in 1994. She paid for my "introduction" class. They worked that room like crazy. All the sales tricks, all the brainwash horseshit they could roll out. There was a man and a woman running the thing. The woman was the closer for the undecided guys. She was crazy attractive and really turned the screws on me. She told me I was "special" I was "unique", and she knew, that I already knew that about myself! And she put her hot hand on my knee.

I said no. Fast forward a month and find out my girlfriend was banging one of her Forum buddies.

2
jimfromtaxi22•

I was taken to one forum event by my uncle when i was 19 they wanted 250 bucks a month or somthing and i was like i dont have thst fucking kind of money. I left

1
pangolins48•

"Personal development" and "personal growth" -- meh. So First Worldish.

2
Counterkulture•

It's like cults, too. I mean, they are cults. But cults in the 'We sleep fifteen to a house in bunkbeds and give our entire paycheck to our messiah' type cults.

It's sick as shit, but that's how they roll. Cults will prey on and target people who are going through divorces, going through super tough financial times, going through medical/addiction/mental health crises, etc.

2
detroitdoesntsuckbaddickbutt•

Oh man, this broad I know tried to me to go a Landmark Forum thing back in the day after a bad breakup. She even said (since I was friends with her husband) "So and So thinks its a scammy cult but they're really not!". Well there's a reason her husband is my friend, he's right. Total scammy cult.

1
murphykpMontavilla•

"It's actually from Confederated Products. Almost everything here is from Confederated Products, from the toilet paper, to the candles to the ham.

The wine, the wine.

Even that cologne you liked. Confederated Products is a multilevel, direct wholesaling company. Which means we don't just sell the products.

No sir-you-ree Bob! We recruit and manage teams that work under us. Irene and I started eight months ago and already, we're pulling in $50,000 a year."

7
E8_Lattice•

Go is such an underrated gem of a film.

5
UnfairSprinkles•

These MLMs are basically mini-cults. I’m surprised you put up with any of that, but lesson learned hopefully.

6
TreecrustOP•

I wouldn't even call it a mini-cult. Seemed like a full fledged cult to me. It had big promises, propaganda, isolation, religious worship (if you're into that), and monetary control. Straight up cult shit.

2
eryg5•

Dude my friend just moved here less than two months ago and half that time she’s been involved in this shit!! I’ve given up on trying to make her question it more and not go blindly into something just because it sounds good and offers success.

She’s already invested some of her own money into it and she’s super into it. It’s fucking bizarre.

5
TreecrustOP•

I'd keep that friend at a distance. This dude I met seemed so genuine, but he flipped the switch immediately once I smelled his bullshit. He doesn't want or need friends. He wants money. I was just a dollar symbol to him.

3
eryg5•

I can only hope she snaps out of it, the sooner the better, and realize the bullshit. We’ve known each other for about ten years so I’m not too worried about her sabotaging that over this (although who ever knows). I listen to her talk about it and she’s not even saying anything, only business-y sounding words and broad, vague ideas. I’ve also looked at some of the papers she’s brought back from her meetings, and it’s basically doing the same. No actual sustenance. I dunno, we’ll see where it takes her.

Only thing that worries me is that she’s recently invested some of HER OWN money into it, a couple hundred actually. :/

1
queenofthenerds•

Consider questioning it and planting some doubt in her. If she keeps going to these meetings, she's unlikely to snap out and more likely to spend thousands.

2
eryg5•

I watch her while she’s trying to explain whatever the fuck this whole thing’s premise is to her roommates/friends and it’s like she’s trying to cover up the fact that she also has no clue how it works/how you gain profit/fucking anything. And they’re only asking her basic questions, they don’t get interrogate-y, genuine curiosity (only behind a thing veil of skepticism). She can’t give a straight forward, simple answer to anything.

Does she notice this while explaining that nothing is promised, or even stated clearly for that matter? Shes really excited about it. It’s fucking bullshit and I hate that she’s doing it but she’s gaining communication skills I guess.

I’m not putting my foot anywhere near her right now, and I think she’s a smart enough woman that she’ll get a grip sooner than later.

If she does truly become an idiot and spends more than she should/can, then I will mediate.

1
eryg5•

Oh my god. I just got to her house and she had this HUGE package from Amway sitting on her doorstep.... it’s full of everything they sell or whatever. I’m drinking one of their energy drinks as I type this. Also came with “Business Owner Starter Kit”

I’m in awe hahaha

1
TreecrustOP•

Look out she's gonna be a millionaire! Don't miss your opportunity to get in on this! Hahaha

1
wafflelover77•

r/antiMLM

5
bearbait60•

Good awareness on your part . Unfortunately brainwashing works on a large majority of people ,

4