Source
r/atheism•
millstone

I saw a Muslim woman wearing an abaya and niqab for the first time

I was checking into a hotel in Washington DC, when I saw them. The man wore casual clothes in an unremarkable American style, but she wore a long black dress that covered her body, and a mask that covered her hair and face, leaving only a narrow slit for her eyes. It was revelatory to see it in person for the first time, and here's why.

Previously, I thought that the hijab was merely a way to exert control over women. But as her husband checked into the hotel, I realize that it is also a tool for isolating women. If you wear a niqab, nobody can see you smile, smirk, or frown. That fleeting connection with strangers becomes that much more difficult to reach. Your body language and emotions are muted. By wearing it, you become dependent on your husband and children for any sincere interaction, isolated from the rest of the world.

I learned that there is an enormous difference between a moderate hijab that reveals the face, and the strict hijab that covers it. Imagine if you were unable to smile, if that cashier could not smile at you either...

Her husband finished checking into the hotel, smiling and joking with the sassy receptionist, while the woman tended to her two daughters. Both wore headscarves, and one was in a stroller. I thought that in a few years, they'll probably be asked to dress like their mother: a sad thought, their happy smiles secreted away, smothered.

We cherish even those transient, formulaic connections we manage to obtain in our day to day interactions. It is abominable to strip those away, to make them inaccessible. The niqab is cruel indeed: it is emotional solitary confinement, an unjust punishment for the crime of being female.

No doubt European redditors have more frequent sightings and interaction with women in a very strict hijab. What is your reaction to seeing it?

Posted May 11, 2010, 8:18 AM UTC

100284
JackRawlinsonAnti-Theist•

I see it almost every day and it still makes my skin crawl.

41
ENTP•

There's a girl on campus that wears one, whenever she walks by I go, "HAYYYYAAAAH, NINJAA!" I can see her eyes glance at me murderously, then laughter ensues.

13
wonderfuldog•

You should stop doing this.

14
ENTP•

Why? She should stop dressing like a lunatic.

-4
[deleted]•

b/c she is minding her own business and youre being an asshole.

9
worthyofridicule•

If you had been born by her parents (or people with similar circumstances) and raised as she was, you would more than likely be dressing like a lunatic as well. All this intolerance amazes me...

3
wonderfuldog•

Everything goes better for everyone when everybody keeps their opinions to themselves.

You don't want people hassling you about the way you dress.

2
hlkolaya•

you're absolutely right. doesn't make much difference but i gave you an upvote. We have to treat religious people like what they are: deluded. Religion should be seen as a mental illness and as long as we treat it like it's normal and okay then we're going to keep having the same problems.

2
NowIAmBecomeShiva•

You sound like a peach.

-1
TriangleMan•

NINJA, VANISH!

8
omginternets•

OH FUCK YES!

Matt, is that you?!?!?!

2
MyCommentHas•

I'm Matt. Stop following me, pervert!

0
Atheist_Simon_HaddadAgnostic Atheist•

Whose laughter? (Sorry, guys, someone had to ask.)

4
ENTP•

Whoever I'm hanging out with at the time. :P

-1
deadtorrent•

You're an asshole

4
Mnementh2230Agnostic Atheist•

You need to buy some of those smoke-bombs that you throw down at your feet for an instant get-away. Throw one at her feet, then when she hasn't disappeared, act VERY disappointed.

2
pickledpepper•

If she's being forced to wear it by her family and not of her own will, then that's pretty mean.

edit: spelling

0
ENTP•

It is pretty mean of them, isn't it?

4
pickledpepper•

Yes, so the hatred should be directed at her family or their culture and not herself. It's only legit to make fun of her if she's doing it of her own will.

2
whuuh•

Yeah, let's assume her family is forcing her to, in violation of the law. You know, they're brown. They probably hate freedom and doesn't afraid of anything.

1
bermyduck•

They're sometimes downright scary. A friend of mine was approached by a woman in one while grocery shopping. She turned to see who was asking her the question and actually let out a short scream. Don't let them sneak up on you! I saw the whole thing, but I waited til we were in the next aisle to burst out laughing.

1
thecave•

Ninjas. It's a recent fad here in South Africa. There weren't many at all when I was in school. As a new development, I get the impression that a few of these women are proud of their piety. They get a status boost in the Muslim community. Others are no doubt coerced.

It's a strong rejection of a rights-based, democratic world-view. Banning? If it's the only way to stop the coercion. Another point is that citizens should not be allowed to cover their faces in certain public environments: banks, courts, government offices, police stations, schools, where there is a danger of criminal activity or terrorism. That's a practical, not a philosophical argument.

22
nerox3•

Why should it be restricted to those security locations? There are restaurants that require a dress code. Even McDonalds has a "no shoe, no shirt no service" policy.

9
worthyofridicule•

The no shoes/no shirt no service policy is a health code in all American restaurants. This is not an infringement on your right to wear what you want because it is an ensurer of your right to health. If you wish to be shirtless/shoeless, you can eat at home or at a park. Banning women from wearing burkas would only further infringe on their rights as a human being--which are already limited by the burka itself--which is the reason why you banned it in the first place. It's called hypocrisy. The amount of intolerance in this thread astounds me!

3
nerox3•

I wasn't suggesting to ban the burka if they want to wear it at home or in the park. I was saying that any institution or business should be able to set up reasonable rules for their interaction with the customer. If it is the policy of a restaurant to require a tie, I'll go along with that. If a store sets a policy that they will not serve someone who hides their face I think that is within their rights as well.

3
worthyofridicule•

I suppose a business should be able to restrict dress however they want; but I don't see any reason why a restaurant would refuse someone's money because of their religious attire.

2
MrJonzy•

There is no such health code anywhere in America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barefoot#Myths_and_urban_legends

0
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Sarkos•

Fellow South African here. I remember the first time I saw one: a young guy in casual clothes with (I assume) a girl in full regalia. They were ordering fast food in the middle of the Cape Town Waterfront. Or rather, he ordered for both of them, clutching her elbow possessively. I watched them, curious to see how she could eat without revealing her mouth, but they took the food and left. It really drove home how completely dependent she must be.

5
Zafner•

It's illegal in Florida, and maybe the whole United States, to go into a bank wearing a mask that conceals your face.

(Former bank teller. We were told to hit the button immediately if somebody came in with their face in any kind of mask.)

2
Daemonax•

Previously, I thought that the hijab was merely a way to exert control over women. But as her husband checked into the hotel, I realize that it is also a tool for isolating women. If you wear a niqab, nobody can see you smile, smirk, or frown. That fleeting connection with strangers becomes that much more difficult to reach. Your body language and emotions are muted. By wearing it, you become dependent on your husband and children for any sincere interaction, isolated from the rest of the world.

I think you mean burka, not hijab which is just a head scarf that covers the hair. But you're right on. The burka/niqab cut these women off from society, it's like a portable Berlin wall. It is a visible wall that separates them and makes it hard for friendships to be made with outsiders.

Social improvement relies on the possibility that people can come together and understand each other, and the burka is a tool that greatly hinders that in the same way that the Berlin wall separated German people.

In NZ, where I'm from, the burka has become more common within the last decade, prior to that you wouldn't see it. It's a part of a growing population of adherents to a radical version of Islam, and things need to be done about it.

21
Fluffy_Fleshwall•

Social improvement relies on the possibility that people can come together and understand each other, and the burka is a tool that greatly hinders that in the same way that the Berlin wall separated German people.

This is exactly why so many are supporting a ban for the Burka. Personally, I was against it at first, it's a restriction of rights. But after some arguing with my mom (Who works full time teaching immigrants) I don't really know what to think anymore.

In the end I think I'm supportive of the ban of the Burka. The fact is that this is the western world, and in the western world it is simply not acceptable to cover your face, for religious reasons or otherwise.

11
[deleted]•

The religious oppression argument doesn't even stand as we would oppose honor killings in the west. If your practices infringe on the rights of others, you can't do them here. Forcing women to wear burkas is oppression. We force people to cover their genitals out here anyways. It's not like we're totally new to enforcing dress codes.

2
IConrad•

Forcing women to wear burkas is oppression.

But what about allowing women to wear burqas if they choose to?

Furthermore -- what about forcing women to wear hats with stars on them?

1
Cthonic•

That's the main problem I have with a ban on the burqa. Some women, one can only wonder why, choose to wear it. Is it infringing on anyone else's rights if they choose? No, it isn't at all. Since we can't reliably prove the women are being forced to wear it unless they say so (and odds are they wouldn't) then the law falls flat and is unenforceable. I say special legal protections for women who refuse to wear are in order.

That being said, I don't think it should get special protection under the law if existing laws against adults covering their faces are in place, as in Virginia.

1
worthyofridicule•

That being said, no one has the right to relinquish others' rights to wear what they will. And this is the only way of life those people know. Their parents were this way; their children will be this way. Some women wear burkas in America. By banning them, it would only further the infringement on their rights as a human being.

1
ENTP•

You can't wear a ski mask in public or in stores (in many states), why should the burka be an exception to this sort of legislation?

4
worthyofridicule•

Because there should not be any legislation that keeps them from their right to wear what they want. If it was someone's religion to wear that ski mask... I would like to see a Supreme Court Case result of this.

1
by_myself•

That's ridiculous, religion is a choice and should not compromise the health and safety of society.

1
Daemonax•

We've got infringement of rights on both sides, and personally the loss of the burka is minuscule compared to the loss of everything but the burka.

Also remember that humans are sexual creatures, that are biased towards displaying our health. Our brains experience happiness when we look attractive. It's just how we're wired. Muslim women are no different. Hopefully you know enough evolutionary psychology that I won't have to spell out all the details for you.

2
worthyofridicule•

Hopefully I know enough evolutionary psychology? That just sounds like you want me to tell you not to have kids. We don't need any more rudeness in the world.

0
Daemonax•

Sorry? I wasn't meaning to be rude at all.

1
JasonMacker•

Women should be able to wear whatever they want. Period.

The issue here is coercion. Nobody has a right to coerce a woman into wearing something she doesn't want. If a husband coerced his wife to walk around town in a bikini all the time, that's JUST as wrong as if he coerced her to walk around wearing an abaya.

21
Seekin•

One of the many difficulties we're going to have in addressing the root of this situation is that if you ask the women, even away from their male "keepers", many of them have probably swallowed the kool-aid and would say they wanted to wear it in accordance with their faith. No doubt, this is just a learned response to an abusive situation, but we may have to rethink our definition of coercion. There are many layers to this level of culturally imposed abuse. My point (and my only point) is that it's not as simple as your first sentence implies.

19
[deleted]•

[deleted]

0
iamtotalcrap•

Oh please. This is not asking them about their favorite color, this is about them hiding their fucking face from the entire world for their entire life. Anyone that wants that is either brainwashed or clinically insane (perhaps advanced phobia or anxiety) and should be treated as such. Also, if this was just a normal phenomena that some people preferred then statistically some men would do it too. But they don't.

10
MatthewEdward•

Insane is a forensic term for 'not criminally responsible for psychological reasons'. I agree that they may have an anxiety disorder; but using the term 'insane' is inaccurate.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

0
JasonMacker•

Ok, but how is this any different from a parent taking his/her kids to McDonalds, and even without the parents, the kids still want to go to mcdonalds? Both activities are harmful, but it shouldn't be the government that regulates such things in free societies.

-3
iamtotalcrap•

But you can't take your kid to a strip club... you can't let put a small child in a car without a car seat... you can't walk around naked, you can't provide sex for cash, etc etc.

You're trying to claim the government can't set rules for anything but clearly that's absurd. There is a line, sure, but that is what this debate is about. I certainly think the government should ban actions that are harmful or dangerous to the society there, and I believe women wearing such garments over-qualifies.

3
JasonMacker•

So both of us agree that there is some harm in these garments. But how much harm? About 1% of the Muslim population in Europe wears them. Muslims make up around 3% of the population already, so that's 0.03% of the total population. Compare that to the amount of harm caused by lack of health care, financial fraud, etc. and then look at the media attention for both. Do you really think that the issue hasn't been blown out of proportion? In France for example, there's only around 100 or so women that wear it. One hundred women. In a country of millions. And their parliament is spending lots of time debating this when they could be doing something far more productive.

1
reddit_user13•

Agreed. McDonalds should just be outlawed.

1
JasonMacker•

See, if someone takes a consistent stand like you, I respect that. But when someone wants to arbitrarily support some forms of government guardianship while ignoring other more serious issues (how many people die from malnutrition and obesity in the U.S. vs from lack of vitamin D as a result of covering the whole body?), we have to set our "outrage" proportionally.

1
[deleted]•

NOOOOOO! My french fries... i cant live without them.

1
Seekin•

I'm pretty sure we're in total agreement, just saying it differently.

Just as a side question, what about situations that are security threats. Should people (male & female) be required to show their faces to board airplanes? How 'bout to enter schools? If requested by a police officer for identification? For getting a driver's license? There are places where, it could be argued, the state as a legitimate purpose for requiring the ability to identify people.

1
JasonMacker•

That's true, but the women that wear these things aren't likely to do those things anyways. And ultimately, it comes down to the fact that we have separate gender strip searches as well. Yeah, she might not be able to take that off in public, but the government should definitely have the resources to say, take a female security guard and have her search this person behind closed doors.

2
nerox3•

Well we can choose to not accomodate their decision. Restaurants, banks, stores and government agencies could choose to refuse service to someone covering their face.

3
JasonMacker•

But don't they already have laws against it in the first place? Are you telling me it's currently legal to go into a government building with your entire face concealed?

1
daytodave•

The only way I can think of to prevent women fro being coerced to wear it in public is to ban it outright, thus taking away the right of women to choose to wear it. What do you think?

2
JasonMacker•

Anything that takes away rights is a bad idea. Sorry, but all this will do it make it go "underground". It's religion, and people are always going to chose their religion over the law.

0
daytodave•

What do you you mean by underground? Are you saying that women will wear burqas, but not in public?

3
[deleted]•

I remember this from an article on (don't burn me for being a heretic) digg, where on a followup of a woman who was fined in I think Belgium for wearing a something or other, her husband had stated "I keep her in the house."

3
JeffMo•

I remember reading at least one report about men threatening to not allow their women out in public, if the garments in question were banned. I can't find it now, and I don't know how representative the sentiment was, but that's one possible "underground" scenario.

2
JasonMacker•

Yep. And this has already been shown to be the outcome in France.

1
[deleted]•

Personally, I shudder every time I see it, and it's becoming more and more frequently seen in areas of London. Last week on a trip to my local supermarket I saw FIVE women in abayas. Of course it could have been one woman I saw five times - which kinda proves your point.

Obviously, it strips women of all individuality and value and makes them less than human. What does it do to young boys to see women dressed like this? I can't bear to think what it does to thier minds to make them hate women so much. What does it do to young girls and how does it make them feel about themselves. It's a form of imprisonment. It's absolutely barbaric and of all the things I hate about Islam - an ideology designed to prevent anyone experiencing love for another human being - it's the single worst thing.

14
savocado•

I work with one in the same office, but she doesn't wear a vail in the room, only when someone 'unknown' comes in. Makes me feel uncomfortable whenever she's doing, so but that's her choice.

On the other hand I wonder if I could work with a hood up at my desk.

11
Evilshadow•

Only very often it's not really her choice...

6
[deleted]•

[deleted]

-9
Evilshadow•

We're a LITTLE past stereotypes when it's the law of an entire(an hugely) worshipped religion. Strerotypes is when we call the french cowardly and the english posh. When it's the literal law that is forcefully enforced by millions of men it's not really that much of a sterotype as just really good odds that my guess might just be spot on.

9
[deleted]•

[deleted]

5
[deleted]•

[deleted]

-10
reodd•

"one" is often used as a gender neutral pronoun.

3
moreofajordan•

I was always told, "Never trust a religion that lets its men dress normal and makes its women dress weird."

8
[deleted]•

I think they should be banned (uk, 31, male, (ahem) caucasian).

7
Seekin•

I have come to no firm conclusion as to the best course of action on the issue. However, I am curious as to how you would address the point (made eloquently here by others) that simply banning this type of garb would force these women to remain behind locked doors. It seem that this policy may have the effect of furthering, rather than alleviating, the denial of their access to the secular world.

3
MatthewEdward•

That would be distressing; and no doubt it will happen to some, but the impracticality of it would cause the men to realize that they have no control over it anymore.

Right now, there are no consequences for the burka; having to keep your wife inside is lost income, lost grocery shopper, and forces the husband to take their kids to school, etc etc. Eventually he will get fed up and let her out.

30 years from now, we will wonder why people even had to ban such a silly garb.

3
Seekin•

Man, I hope you're right, but I think you're being very optimistic, at least with your time frame. A reasonable response in any case.

1
[deleted]•

Then we are making it harder to be abusive.

1
Seekin•

I don't understand: how? How are we making it harder to abuse the women if we force them further into isolation, as my post posits?

1
[deleted]•

We're increasing the expense of doing so.

1
woggy•

My family is muslim (I am not), and we used to live in a muslim country. So I've seen these relatively frequently, yet they still make me feel uncomfortable. It's just scary and I feel sorry for the women.

7
sge_fan•

Islam scares the shit out of me. It's been less than 500 years that we've got rid of Christianity dominating every aspect of life. Just look inside any islamic country like Saudi-Arabia, Yemen, Iran and you'll see that this is exactly what is going on there: Total domination of everyday life by religion. The Achilles heel of any religion are women, and girls in particular (that's why those religions are so hostile toward women). The women are the ones who raise and indoctrinate the children, the girls, therefore, have to be indoctrinated from a very young age on, to be able to carry on the tradition. If they refuse to continue the insanity the chain will be broken. Our only chance against islam (and if you look at birth rates of muslims vs. other religions you'll know what I mean), our only chance against islam is to educate girls.

7
iamtotalcrap•

I've often wondered what would happen if we went into Afghanistan and just made it illegal for men to carry guns and gave all the women AK47s...

2
sge_fan•

If you promised them immunity for their first 30 kills ... it could become interesting.

2
threepio•

There's a moment in Justice League: New Frontier where Wonder Woman does this in Cambodia (I think). The "camera" cuts away to the sound of gunfire.

1
whuuh•

This must be forbidden. Show me your smiles, woman. Smile, bitch, or jail for you. What's that? You want to wear that? Yeah, right. Nobody wants to wear that. He's forcing you too. If the choice was yours, you'd smile for me.

But while this is obvious, If we assume their husbands tell them how to dress, and thus ban their dresses, shouldn't we first assume their husbands tell them how to vote, and ban that too?

7
dVnt•

Wow, I hadn't thought about that before. Married Muslim men (of this particular extremist stripe) in democratic countries effectively have two votes...

5
[deleted]•

What is your reaction to seeing it?

Discomfort, hopelessness, anger, pity

6
spikelike•

I saw a woman at the grocery store in her abaya/niqab. Of course, the only thing exposed was her shoes, so my eyes went straight down to her feet.....

She was wearing Skechers Shape-Ups. I thought that was an odd contrast to the rest of her outfit.

6
[deleted]•

phew... i thought you were goin to say crocks. that would have been too much evil to handle.

3
iamtotalcrap•

I saw one at the mall the other day... funny thing was I just couldn't keep from wondering what she looked like naked. I guess there goes the whole reasoning for the stupid thing huh?

5
hotcha•

probably not. I think they think that women are to be guarded at all times, because apparently, they can't control themselves enough to keep from objectifying every woman they see. I think this is the problem, in fact. They treat women as objects, so they think they must be protected fully from other men. The women sometimes accept or valorize this objectification, but I think the a central problem is what it suggests about how I, the non-muslim, must be treating all other women.

5
iamtotalcrap•

Oh I know.. I was just joking around. The reasoning for such garments is not about sex at all, it's about control and objectification as you said.

3
hotcha•

don't worry, I was just riffing on it. the joke being, to me, that muslim men (must all be/must think all muslim men are) skeevy pervs who can't simply interact with a woman without instantly trying to pry open her legs and/or that women are such temptatious harlots that they would like nothing more than to throw away any loving relationship or their family just for a romp with some random prick. It certainly doesn't say much for your view of society if that's your baseline assumption about your fellow human being.

2
worthyofridicule•

It also has to do with parts of the body being sacred--with family being sacred. These people have a greater appreciation for family and intimacy because of their religion. I certainly don't agree with it; I much prefer my views on family, sex, and "God," but that doesn't mean their ways are wrong, and it doesn't mean they're barbaric.

3
tuberAtheist•

Does anyone talk to veiled women they see?

5
serume•

Do you talk to random people you see on the street?

5
threepio•

Actually I do. I make eye contact and I smile at people. I ask them how they are doing, I hold doors for them, I'll happily spot them the change when they come up short at the register.

I don't make eye contact with those in burkas. They believe that I am so weak willed that if I were to see them outside of that garb that I would be irresistibly sexually attracted to them. The idea that the only way that their honour can be saved from my undoubtably uncontainable sexual urges is to hide under layers of fabric... well, it's flat out offensive. They impugn me without ever knowing me. That, to me, is the saddest aspect of this; that this group of people would condemn me for things that I have not done, nor would I ever do.

5
serume•

And yet, some people in this thread doesn't think these women should be allowed in public places because of how they dress. Not offensive?

2
threepio•

Don't ask me to judge those people. It's not your place, nor is it mine. All I can speak to is my own experience: I'm grossly offended that someone I've never met thinks that I'm so much of a pervert that I couldn't resist even the slightest exposure of her skin. To be frank, it's hubris of the worst sort.

1
[deleted]•

They wouldn't talk back, not allowed.

1
serume•

I can't imagine being forced to wear something like that. But not all women who wear them are, anyway. For many, it's a safety net. It gives them a place to hide, even in public. It's a choice. Although I personally would not make that choice, and I know that many women in fact has no choice, I still find it oppressive to try to ban it.

3
bazfoo•

For many, it's a safety net. It gives them a place to hide, even in public.

If this is the case, then it makes me wonder about their psychological well-being.

5
nerox3•

I think it very much is a way to maintain privacy in public. And if they are walking down the street that is fine. But if they demand the right to wear their veil into a store, bank, school or hospital where they will be interacting with someone else then I draw the line. They have the right to wear the burka and the service provider has the right to choose not to serve someone wearing such a veil.

3
moonflower•

I live in London and often see women in the full black veil, and it makes me uncomfortable, like ninjas, but I don't think my discomfort is good enough reason to ban them from wearing it

3
Daemonax•

to ban them from wearing it

The thing is that these women are typically banned by their husbands, fathers and religious leaders from wearing anything else. The difference between having the burka/niqab banned, and having everything but the burka/niqab banned is a huge difference.

The burka/niqab also cut these women off from interacting and becoming friends with common Londoners such as yourself, and that isn't healthy for society. Increased friendship and understanding leads to a better society, and the burka/niqab are tools that severely hinder that.

13
moonflower•

if they are banned from wearing their burka in public, then the most oppressed ones will be kept indoors and have even less interaction with people of other beliefs

so if you really want to help the most oppressed women, you will allow them to go out in public wearing their traditional dress, allow them to meet other women, allow them to learn about other cultures

to ban people from wearing what they choose to wear in public, is oppressive, apart from the reasonable requests to identify one's self (in airports, banks etc)

5
Daemonax•

to ban people from wearing what they choose to wear in public, is oppressive

Agreed. But this is going both ways, don't forget that they're banned from wearing what they choose to wear in public by their husbands, fathers and religious leaders.

So what is your solution?

To me it seems that a ban of the burka is the only practical approach. Either way there will be a ban, either on the burka/niqab or on everything but the burka/niqab. Given that dichotomy I'll go with the ban of the burka/niqab.

I would also assume that England has laws that forbid a husband/father from confining his wife/daughters to their house.

10
moonflower•

there are two authorities here: the law of the country, and the religious law ... if the woman is being oppressed by the religious law, there is already a law in the country which says her family cannot force her to wear the burka, they are not legally allowed to beat her or imprison her for refusing to wear it, she already has legal protection from religious oppression

but it is very naiive to think that many women would turn to the law for help, knowing that at best, they will be disowned by their families and left abandoned and alone in a strange country, and at worst, beaten or killed

I have already told you the solution to the problem: allow her to wear her traditional religious dress, allow her to meet other women, other muslim women who are less strict in their rules, allow her to be educated, and this religious law will gradually be discarded over the generations to come

your ''solution'' will lead to the most oppressed women being imprisoned in their homes, and they will not turn to the law for help

-2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
moonflower•

it is for a lot of people

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

3
nerox3•

Oh, this could be very disruptive. You could have male flashers going around in burkas, who could flash women their privates, or even worse use the robe to hide a "jerking off" motion. How would the muslim women feel if people started associating burkas with public masturbation? Yikes.

12
darkbeanie•

Seriously, I think we're on to something here. Change the public perception of what a burka implies.

9
sleepyj910•

ridicule is better than banning imho. The teens will agree with us and hate their parents.

7
bbibber•

The teens will agree with us and hate their parents.

I assumed that as well, but it is not what is happening in urban Western Europe. In fact there is a significant number of muslim teens who are just as or even more reactionnary than their parents wrt to female rights. And given that they are young they tend to use more force and coercion when imposing for example clothing rules on their sisters.

3
lskalt•

But HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?

5
JasonMacker•

The same reason why THEN WHO WAS PHONE?

1
worthyofridicule•

Everyone is viewing this from the point of view of someone who does not cover all of their skin, but covers the "private parts," which we, in our society, view as personal parts of our bodies that should only be seen by certain people in certain contexts. You all must realize that this is not the only point of view. There are nudists, who believe that everyone essentially looks the same, and hiding any part of the body is therefore pointless. There are people whose religion tells them that this is wrong, that their bodies are sacred and should only be revealed in certain circumstances. Clothes are just a human invention. They shield us from weather and temperature; they hide some of the imperfections we are self-conscious about; they offer a way to express ourselves. All of these things add value to us. But the fact is that if we had lived under different circumstances, it is probable that we would have been taught different things, have witnessed different things, have believed in different things, and would dress completely opposite of how we do now. Don't be so intolerant, it's all a matter of culture.

3
[deleted]•

While I can't agree with it at the end of the day it is still their choice and it is just as much of an injustice forcing them not to wear it as it is could be considered them wearing it.

2
by_myself•

I work in a store, it would be an injustice force me either to give up my job, or to deal with strangers wearing something more concealing than a ski mask. How am I supposed to know that the shapeless, faceless figure behind all that fabric isn't about to hold up the store while some religion gives them the perfect cover to remain completely anonymous in the process.

1
[deleted]•

There's no issue with your specific store policy banning clothing that conceals the face. But at the end of the day, if somebody wants to rob you're store they're going to do it anyway and a ban on the Burqa is hardly going to stop them.

1
by_myself•

Socially maladjusted medieval ideas like the burqa should not endanger the public. You can say that crime would happen whether people can disguise their faces with one or not, but that doesn't mean we have to make it easier for people to commit crimes anonymously by handing them the kind of clothing items that are exclusively designed to disguise their faces.

1
[deleted]•

Therefore we should ban scarfs, hoodies, coats, hats, dark glasses, beards, make up and anything else that could obscure somebodys face or be used in a crime.

You'd agree right?

2