Banned List discussion from members of the CAG and Rules Committee.

When the hell did this subreddit become so salty?

When did we descend into insults and calling people names?

The cEDH community is held at arms length by the casual community at the moment and they mostly believe that we are here to pub stomp and destroy peoples fun.

Every day I watch this subreddit grow with people that are new to the format. And this is how we are going to portray ourselves?

People have opinions. Opinions that are different is what makes everything interesting.

I understand that everyone is on edge after the banning yesterday, but c'mon. We are better than this.

Still working through the video, but honestly I'd say it's pretty balanced and I don't understand the hate for the CZ here.

That being said I do agree that banning a lot of the fast Mana positive rocks would be good for commander in general. It would change the format dramatically, but it would increase card choices on deck building as you would eliminate auto includes, and it would make decks have more balanced starts as having one player drop 4+ Mana on turn one tends to speed up a game dramatically in that players favor.

That being said I also think it's probably time for a split of a cedh and edh ban lists.

You really wanna ban something? Eminence is one of the worst keywords to ever be pronted on cards. That shows up in wayyyy more casual games than PE

Rift is still hated on that bad? Wow...

I’ve been out of the loop, but is command zone still seen as a joke, or do people take them more serious now?

Super cool video honestly. Really cool seeing the views of different people and power levels. Really enjoyed the parts around the general rules that people would change. Thanks for sharing.

I'm in real fear for the format. If we are banning Staples now, should I even spend money with the format?

Cyclonic Rift is more dangerous than Flash? LMAO.

First of all: yes, Paradox Engine is my favorite card ever. Might as well get that out of the way. Second of all: I don't think that "the card makes the format less fun" is a good reason to ban something. Neither is "it's good in every deck". I'm sure that in it's infancy, the format would have benefited from a small casual playgroup deciding what was good for the format, but now EDH is one of if not the biggest format in the game right now, and the system is outdated.

To the credit of the RC, I do like the formation of an advisory committee, and I would like to know what their input was on the decision.

As far as the cEDH vs kitchen table argument, I don't think it's valid. Sure, the format started as purely casual, but one of the biggest draws to the format is that it's a brewer's paradise. It lets players build around cards (like PE) that are virtually unplayable everywhere else, and there are many players, regardless of how competitively they play, who like to do powerful things with powerful cards.

There are no real replacements for Paradox Engine or Iona that the now obsolete archetypes can use to become viable again, and there are many new, unique archetypes that could emerge with access to currently banned cards if Flash-Hulk is any indicator. Archetypes that don't currently exist because a turn four Craw Wurm can't beat them.

Back to the kitchen table: sure, losing to these cards the first time or two stings, but do you know what YOU can do to fix it? Build your deck better. I'm not trying to sound like at Spike telling little Jimmy "git gud" after dragging his face across the concrete with my $2000 combo deck, but if you keep losing to a card, it's because three of the people at the table aren't prepared for it. Jace the Mind Sculptor is a very good card, but he dies to Lightning Bolt. PE dies to Disenchant. Counterspells exist. Without Boogeymen in the format for players to prepare for, linear decks with little to no interaction will run rampant, gameplay will be simple, and new players won't have the opportunities to learn to be better deck builders.

In short: I think the purpose of a ban list shouldn't be to tailor to the kitchen table, they can have house rules. The ban list should promote diversity across a wide variety of archetypes for those who play in a public or tournament setting.

Can I point out that Josh thinks Gifts Ungiven is okay but Prime Time is not? Anyone have any arguments to support that? Because seeing those two laugh about PT after seriously considering GU breaks my brain.

Did that guy on the CAG seriously say that they should unban painter's servant because the art looks beautiful? What even?

1. There's no reasonable reason to ban Paradox Engine. It's a card that can be interacted with, and there's a natural counterbalance with Stax being a prominent archetype in the format, via Blood Pod and Meta Pod, of which has the ability to neuter it. Beyond that it's no less or more functional than "Ghetto Engine" (Dramatic-Scepter combo).

2. There's no reasonable reason to unban Painter's Servant. Wash Out + P.S. = Upheval, and Upheval is banned. That's not counting Ugin and other mass color hosers. As a cEDH'er, I can tolerate an unban like this, but that doesn't mean average casuals are prepared to face this harsh reality.

Can I be upset that all the cards I sunk money into (partially as an investment and partially to compete) are potentially just going to tank in value and also be useless to me (and I've heard rumors of leaks/"insider trading") all at the whim of some 3rd party's nebulous, self-righteous definition of fun?

Maybe some of them retain value due to usage in other formats, but the demand for them will necessarily decrease.

Again, my stance is that an individual rules committee is the wrong way to go about doing this. The rules committee is biased towards Timmy decks. Anything that isn’t big dumb beaters and slow games with tons of board wipes will not be considered. We need to petition for official WotC control of the banned list. Let’s not forget that this is a multiplayer format at Iona is a 9 mana cost card that 3 people can counter/remove. Paradox engine is a 5 mana cost artifact that 3 people can counter or destroy. There is no reason why cards like these should be banned in the format. It’s completely stupid

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Let's talk about the play pattern of Cyclonic Rift, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt on both sides of the format.

Cyclonic Rift in casual is an expensive card that gives a large, swingy bonus to the player that casts it. It tends to come down late during crowded board states and allow for a win 'out of nowhere', but if it doesn't generate a win it effectively acts as a reset button and extends the game. If multiple people are playing the card in decks that don't generate strong board presences, this can add up to an even greater extent.

It is also important to note that unlike other boardwipes, this does not give non-blue opponents many meaningful avenues to respond. White, green, and to a lesser extent red have color-pie appropriate ways to negate removal. They can give indestructibility, hexproof, redirect removal, or play cards that limit casting options or negate sacrifices. This gives these decks that ability to counterplay most wraths or targeted removal. Only blue's counterspells and an extremely limited number of specific cards provide any counterplay for Cyclonic Rift.

So in casual, Cyclonic Rift does meet several of the criteria mentioned for ban-worthy status. It:

• generates wins 'out-of-nowhere'
• can 'reset the game'
• is a 'must-run' card that pushes out other options
• has limited counterplay

In competitive EDH, Cyclonic Rift is played differently. It is run in a wide variety of blue decks, but not all of them. The 7 mana cost for its Overload is a very real factor, and the competitive scene rarely gets to the type of stalled out board state that allows the card to 'win out of nowhere.'

Instead, the card gives heavy blue decks and slower decks a way to meaningfully interact with a diverse board. This benefits midrange and control more than hard combo, which many feel is healthy for the format. It provides considerable advantage, but most cEDH decks have the type of counterplay to handle the card and in general a 7 mana investment should provide that level of advantage in a format where the standard for board wipes is 3 mana (Toxic Deluge, Fire Covenant).

In my opinion, there is a dichotomy between casual and competitive EDH in the play patterns of this card. In casual it serves as blue's Craterhoof Behemoth, a game-ender that primarily benefits decks that are already more capable than others at generating large board states that if aggressively searched for eliminates the variance in the game. In competitive it is more of a safety-check that every interactive deck in the format can meaningfully counterplay by denying mana or countering, and it mainly pushes the format away from fast combo in a relatively healthy way.

Fast mana is another difference between the two formats. A casual deck with just Sol Ring for fast mana, no good tutors for it, and a reliance on slower ramp (land ramp, Signets, Talismans, Manaliths, Worn Powerstone, Thran Dynamo, and/or Gilded Lotus) is going see tremendous variance in its mana production. Most games will have at most one player with a Sol Ring start, and that player will be able to compound on their lead with slower ramp. They might have 4 mana on turn 2, 7 on turn 3 while the other players are still leagues behind, and this creates either 3-on-1 dogpiles or noncompetitive games. Sol Ring being in every deck is also the classic example of a card crowding out other options and creating a 98 card deck. Mana Crypt is effectively 'Sol Ring 2' for those with more money and has the same concerns without the protection of being in introductory products for the format.

Competitive EDH, however, has an abundance of fast mana. Even the slowest decks will typically have an array of tutors and 4 pieces of fast mana (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond) while many others have significantly more (Lotus Petal, LED, Grim Monolith, Carpet of Flowers). This dramatically reduces the variance problem of casual, as most cEDH starting hands will have mana acceleration. Some hands will have more than others, but it rarely leads to a game-winning resource advantage. The fast mana in the format is also a defining factor to its unique feel compared other Eternal formats and allows non-green decks to exist in the format. Mono-red, for example, cannot exist without these cards. It does benefit blue decks considerably, but green decks still have more varied ramp options and are generally faster overall than non-green decks.

So again, problematic game play pattern in casual but generally healthy interactions in competitive. Banning these cards may promote a more diverse meta at casual tables and lead to less frustration but it would likely hurt competitive diversity while introducing the same variance problem it tries to eliminate in casual by making it more likely for a single player to end up with a large mana advantage. I cannot think of a deck that would become competitively viable with less fast mana in the format, but many current strategies would become nonviable.

I think it is important for the Rules Committee to consider both sides of the equation when they make ban decisions. Cards that intersect positively in one group and negatively in another should be a lower priority to interact with than cards that cause troubles in one group and see little to no play in the other.

For example, Craterhoof Behemoth would be a far less troublesome ban than Cyclonic Rift. Almost every downside that could be applied to one can be applied to the other, but Craterhoof is not a core card to the competitive scene while Cyclonic Rift arguably serves an important and healthy role for the competitive meta.

From the other direction, consider Thrasios and Flash. Thrasios is a healthy card in casual play and serves an important role in allowing a wider variety of 4C deck options, but in competitive he pushes out many other meaningful strategies and even entire color combinations by simply being a near strictly superior option for an infinite mana outlet. This makes him a card that would be a divisive and problematic ban. Flash, on the other hand, isn't played in casual and is simply too fast compared to other win conditions. Flash Hulk's introduction to the format has been the largest factor in pushing the fundamental turn of the format up by nearly a full turn, which pushes out diverse combo strategies in favor of a small set of equally fast options.

Sol ring and Mana Crypt could def use a ban.

They have something like 100 deck penetration for top decks, and are basically the first card you can add to any deck when you are building it.

When building a deck means selecting 97 cards because 2 cards are auto includes before you even decide on a commander or archtype...those cards need a ban.

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