Say it louder so finally, just finally, the guys will finally get it
Posted Jul 12, 2019, 9:20 AM UTC
3.7K165
"but if we believe women we might end up ruining some 'innocent' man's life!"
cry me a fucking river. dudes get actually convicted of rape and don't have their lives ruined, just a slap on the wrist and a speech about how much potential they have. unless we start shooting accused rapists without a trial i have absolutely no sympathy for these men, especially since perfectly credible accusations almost never actually go anywhere.
318
One of my girl friends say this and it infuriates me so much! This and anything a variation of "false rape" accusations. Yes that number is not zero, but it is so small as to be a statistical error.
133
anything a variation of "false rape" accusations.
which, honestly, i believe are almost always actual rapes, just where the guy is so ignorant that he honestly believes he didn't rape anyone.
133
As a white woman, I also include in this category women who defend Bill Cosby or believe he didn't sexually assault, drug, or rape. "Why did they wait so long?" Because maybe it takes sixty women to tarnish a beloved celebrity's image? Also applies to any other high-profile celebrity or political figure. I believe the victim until proof dictates otherwise. This applies to male rape victims, also.
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Yeah and I wonder how many of those false accusations are recantations, which do not mean that the allegations were false. Victims recant all the time for survival but these same people are quick to assume that means she lied.
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I have heard numerous stories of police officers badgering a victim until she drops charges. This shit is built into the system.
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About 50% of proven false rape accusations are not made toward any particular individual, but are said to be by an assailant or assailants that the false accuser cannot identify or sometimes even describe. Blew my mind when I learned that.
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I mean, they usually consider any time a guy isn't convicted a "false accusation", but even more earnest arguers don't ever seem to understand that recanting doesn't really mean shit.
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And police districts are notoriously shit at submitting correct false reporting numbers. Most departments OVER report on false accusations - they often lump scenarios where there wasn't enough information or the victim didn't want to testify or the victim couldn't provide consistent information (common for people who've been victims of a trauma) as "false reports" which drives up those numbers
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Notice it only applies in rape cases. If you're robbed, no one suggests you had too much to drink, blacked out, were really generous, and then regretted it in the morning.
Dude: "My shit is GONE!"
Police: "Yeah but you have people over all the time. Everyone knows you give a lot of presents at Christmas. How do we know you're not just making it up?"
11
Have you guys seen the report of the Mississippi candidate who refuses to work with a female reporter without a male escort in the room? And all the reactions supporting his decision and condemning the reporter for complaining about not being able to do her job, the reason being what your comment is about.
It's insane. If you are running for governor and can't allow yourself to be alone with a woman who isn't your wife YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO HOLD A POSITION IN PUBLIC OFFICE. His position is literally eliminating women from eligibility for any job that might result in them being alone in a room with him.
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"I can't be in a room alone with a man because they may rape me"... yeah just WAIT and see how that would go over with men - "not all men!" and you know, getting raped is more probable than getting falsely accused of rape.
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They don’t have a problem sending innocent black men to jail/prison.
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That’s not true, many of them smoked pot in college. 😤
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I was just discussing this with my husband.
How many innocent men's lived have been "ruined" by false rape accusations? Like, 12?
Now, how many women's lives have been ruined* because of sexual assault? A billion? 2 billion? how far back into history you want to go?
Don't even get me started on the true accusations that go nowhere because of lack of evidence. There's some people whose lives deserve to be ruined.
*as a survivor myself I don't mean to imply our lives are "ruined" per se, but certainly not made better
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Well pretty much everybody who ever got lynched would be on that counter.
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If women starting shooting their rapists that will help with gun control
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Yeah, spending a decade in prison for something u didnt do is a "slap on the wrist"
Shit like this is why people equate feminism to manhating.
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There have been a few cases of men being falsely accused and killing themselves from how people treated them bc of it. I dont think it's a good situation for anyone.
-12
Okay, but whether that's the case or not...the immediate response to that is just going to be 'How many rape victims do you think have killed themselves?'
It's not really a good thing to try to 'one-up' rape victims on, if you want to point out suffering.
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But we have to have innocent until proven guilty and keep it neutral. I'm saying this as a victim as well. Victims are believed less bc of false accusations. I'm not one upping, I'm saying men are effected by false accusations. So we need to keep the mentality of innocent until proven guilty.
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The way society is, right now? Victims are not believed for a plethora of reasons. False accusations are just a convenient scapegoat; they're so rare it's like people not wanting to vaccinate because of the rare bad reaction. Especially when the 'false accusation' narrative is so gendered; victims of all genders are misbelieved, but it certainly just insists on the 'women are raped by men' model. The average man is more at risk of being assaulted than falsely accused. Does it happen? Yup. Is it more of a boogeyman than anything? Yup. Alternate universe man! me is way more worried about being raped or murdered by the police or being homeless than being falsely accused of rape because all of those things are way more likely. For that me.
And the legal system is 'not guilty', not 'innocent', but let me put it this way: it's a Schrodinger's Cat situation. Either the accuser is telling the truth, or the accused is, but the presumption shouldn't be that the accuser is lying and that the accused is not guilty, the assumption is that we don't know, and either outcome is possible.
Statistically speaking, it's actually much more likely that the accuser is not lying, and so the public could reasonably assume that the accuser is more truthful, but in any case, all it means is that the court can't show either side any favor. We, the public, can have opinions. It's why everyone knows OJ Simpson is a murderer even though he was never convicted of that crime, for example.
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Sources?
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox13news.com/amp/news/local-news/largo-police-false-rape-allegation-leads-to-neighbor-s-stabbing-death (a murder from a false rape claim)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/12/14/us/kentucky-state-lawmaker-death/index.html
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The majority of those sources have nothing to do with false accusations. The majority are a man was accused of rape or assault and then he committed suicide. They don't state whether or not the accusation was found to be false and some didn't even see trial. In others the accuser redacted, but redacting an accusation doesn't mean the accusation was false either.
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Reports on "false reporting" vary a bit depending on how data is collected and how different regions report on crimes - but false report numbers generally hover around the same number as other crimes ~6%.
If we assume that over 90% of reports are true, why the fuck wouldn't you believe the accuser? There's more than a 90% chance the assault did happen.
Fucking statistics tell us to believe the accuser.
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Because burden of proof or presumption of innocence! Totalitarian regimes are the ones that don't hold trials.
Of course, that goes both ways and the person filing the complaint shouldn't be 'presumed' to be a liar either.
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No one (afaik) is saying there shouldn't be a trial or that the burden of proof shouldn't still be on the prosecution at the trial.
But why when a woman reports being raped is she much more likely to be disbelieved or had blame shifted onto her for being victimized.
If the rate of false accusations is the same as other crimes, then why aren't we questioning other crime victims the same way people do rape victims?
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"Well with a nice car like that, you were asking to get you car stolen"
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"How can we be sure you didn't tell him he could stab you, and then changed your mind afterwards?"
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"You let dozens of people into your house at a party last week. Why should we believe you that this was a burglary?"
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Hmm...
- There are no credible studies showing anything about the number of true and false rape accusations because of the often subtle nature of the crime and details available for investigation (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#FBI_statistics_(1995–1997))
- Hmm I do think what you're saying is true...more likely to be disbelieved...and theorists pin it on media sensationalism(same source article)...but no good studies...no good data...I reserve strong judgement
- In other crimes like stolen cars, burglary etc...it seems like they have much more evidence that's 'verifiable' besides word of mouth...I don't think that's true with things as subtle as rape and emotional abuse. Hence the benefit of doubt goes to the accused...because the benefit of doubt going to the accuser....and you'll have a lot more chaos because presumably it's easier to say something than commit sexual offense
- I'm still not sure though why the disbelief rate is higher...all theories and no satisfactory verification. It still sucks, that's for sure!
Edit: Typo!
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No one is advocating that we skip a court trial when we say to believe accusers.
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Thankfully! A court trial determines, as best as we can, what happened. Why believe anything before any analysis?
Thinking probabilistically or statistically is good when the occasions you are wrong/you lose don't matter...all that matters is when you are right. This is not the case here! Collateral damage is high because even those 6% are human beings with lives and all its detail.
I think it's best if we all respect everyone else's human rights.
Please encourage the people to come forward with their complaints and prescription of due correction/punishment on being found guilty, but that is different from 'believing the accuser'. Moreover, this is a slippery slope which can be exploited really uncontrollably. There are extremely good reasons 'mob justice' of the medieval period and prior were ousted as an 'acceptable' way!
Edits: Typos
-11
complaints
You know us women. Constantly complaining about being raped all the damn time. Maybe a little more rape will finally get us to shut up. Sound good?
9
Legally this is true. Socially, I don’t have to presume a damn thing.
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It's true that you that freedom, but that's also because of another human right. Much like this!
0†
I came in to see if this was addressed. False accusers are ruining it for everyone. It’s always the terrible few destroying things for the honest majority.
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Umm, thats not how stats work.
What you are saying is the equivalent of someone saying "only a small percent of accusations are proven and result in conviction, therefore rape isn't a big deal"
Of course. that woudl be false, because that doesn't account for non-reported and unproven instances.
Similarly, the 6 percent only refers to PROVABLY false, doesn't take into account (majority) of cases that lack evidence or aren't conclusive, so treated as neither false nor true.
The proven rape cases (resulting in conviction) are also similarly small, but something tells me u would have a problem if someone pointed to that to dismisse rape.
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I’m a guy (so please downvote me if you’d prefer I not comment in this space), but for many people it’s not even innocent until proven guilty- look at Tyreek Hill in the NFL. He plead guilty to domestic assault, and many fans are eager to STILL believe his innocence.
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Those people know he did it. They just don't think it matters. See also: Chris Brown.
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“Ain’t nobody judging me ‘cause I’m black or my controversial past.”
One of the most appalling lyrics that I’ve ever heard. And then he had the audacity to compare the backlash that he gets for beating up a woman to racism. Jeez.
22
There was a post last week on the front page about a guy who video taped himself raping a girl, he said in texts to his friends he raped her, and people in the comments still said we shouldn't believe her just because she's a woman and she could be lying. Like what??
103
There was that infamous askreddit rape post where a bunch of guys said "i didnt actually rape her. I just had sex with her and she didnt move or say anything but was crying/was asleep and then she accused me of rape."
Its boggles the mind they admit they raped someone but dont think it was rape.
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That one is still stuck with me. Girls were replying to him saying he did nothing wrong cuz "how was he to know". Like wtf!
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This is why consent needs to be taught in sex ed
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I have a high sex drive, I've learned to deal with it It was especially bad as a late teen. I have for sure hurt people before because of it. It happened twice with two different women, the one was just over aggressive kissing and I didn't let her leave the stairwell we were kissing in, we broke up that day and I felt like a jerk. The other I took a woman's virginity 2-3 weeks into our relationship, she liked me and we were very close. she didn't protest but looking back I did not establish consent and I think she cried afterwards. we stayed together for 3.5 years after that and it was the best relationship I'd ever had.
No one ever called me out for it beyond the immediate incident, I never thought of myself poorly for having done what I did. I rationalized the behavior, heck I still think the second example was going to be rough no matter what because she was an anxious person, I should have done more to make it a mutual experience though.
In my adult life I realized I was kinky and I dated an ace, between those two things consent became and active thought in my mind and I worked on myself. I think I now do a good job of securing consent, I even got complimented on it during a hook-up at a nerdy convention this year.
Finally my point, those attitudes come from experience and culture. We need education on the subject probably for both parties. I am not victim shaming, just being practical that if I knew people could be aroused but un-interested and/or if I had gotten a firm no these incidents would not have happened.
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Yes, this is exactly what feminists mean when they say to teach people not to rape. Teach people what consent looks like and what lack of consent looks like, to prioritize communication and have knowledge of biological reality so they don't make false assumptions.
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Well the fucking judge believed him so 🤷♀️🤮🤯
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Or they’re a slut who regretted it afterwards?
Or they were asking for it by what she was wearing/drinking/dancing/whatever?
Yeah, I’m rather disgusted by the story that’s making news lately... If I were her father, a different story would be making the news...
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When I was raped I kept saying it was my fault. I honestly believed it was my fault for the longest time. Oprah had tons of exposes in the day about roofies and spiked drinks, and I had it happen to me, so it was my fault for leaving my drink unattended.
It still hits me to this day. Like I was at a bar after a con,. I was with my SO and a very good male friend, and I had to pee. I put a coaster on my drink, and put it on the table between them and went to the bathroom with a friend so I wouldn't get jumped on the way to the bathroom.
Some of the guys at the table thought I was being excessive but...I wasn't
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I'm so sorry that happened to you. I really hope you know that it was never your fault. Also you can never be excessive when it comes to personal safety, especially on a night out. I put my drink away as soon as I've lost eye contact with it, even if it was in my hand the whole time. My drink has already been spiked once and I'm very grateful for my friends who kept me safe then. It was horrible. Never again, I'm not taking any risks. We gotta look out for ourselves, because sadly, no one else will.
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I got benzoed by a bartender at a party in college before I was assaulted. I also blamed myself for years. A friend of the family went to the bathroom at 11ish while watching a baseball game with her husband & another couple. She was by no means wasted & it was somewhere you go to get tipsy & hang out. Not get drunk. There was a dude waiting in a stall to come out & he tried attacking her. Luckily a staff member heard her screaming & fighting him even though he had 200 pounds. The amount of people wondering why she went by herself including one family member. I kind of went off at that point because who expects that?
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A very hard lesson I'm learning
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There are multiple possible meanings to what you just said so I just want to say that I hope you're doing ok.
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Even after proven honest, you’re still a liar. So not sure where to go from here.
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THIS!!!!
8†
Some of them never will. I don't hate all men, just that minority of assholes.
7
The point is 100% true, but the argument doesn’t make sense. Because it’s always gonna be innocent til proven guilty, and any witness for the prosecution would be a liar til proven honest. If someone got charged with making false accusations and went to court, they’d also be innocent til proven guilty
4†
And even if proven guilty, he gets a slap on the wrist because "why should his future be ruined?"
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BURN THE WITCH
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You are a liar until proven honest.
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wait i don’t understand. are they saying the court should believe them right away or does society think that women are lying when they accuse a man of rape
0
Why do people have such a hard time understanding presumption of innocence?
-13
Presumption of innocence does not inherently mean that the accuser is lying.
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Her argument doesn't make sense because you can't just fuckin send someone to jail(male or female) because someone pointed a finger at them and said"HE/SHE RAPED ME" but thats just my opinion
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And there used to be rules against racial minorities using the same facilities as white people. There used to be rules against women owning property. There used to be rules against gay people having sex or getting married. Lots of rules are fucking terrible.
Some rules need to be changed, and saying "it's how rules work" is just enabling horrible, disgusting behavior.
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I hope you take that seat and change the rules as per people’s need.
-10
Holy shit this sub fucking blows do something better with your time
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Be quiet
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That’s usually how the law works yeah
-27
No, the law does not assume women are liars. Otherwise they would be prosecuted as such.
Innocent before proven guilty applies to both. Weirdly in rape, people only seem to be want to apply it to the alleged accused.
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And even if there's the perfect evidence because he filmed it and told all his friends about raping her, he still gets off for good grades, good family, and being too good a person to ruin his life
White male ✓
Parents are wealthy ✓
Sports(?) ✓
"Not who he really is"
"He is young, mistakes happen"
"He has a bright future ahead, we can't destroy that"
the rhetoric is old but still works somehow.
"Men have a future, women have a past" was something too.
Oh my gods this one is new to me... r/TIHI/
Rape only matters if you’re black.
*If you’re accused as the perpetrator
According to the authorities, black women don’t get raped. 🤷♀️
Of course it matters, cause then the black men are ruining white men's property!
He has such a bright future ahead of him!
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Where a girl gets raped but isn’t punished because of her good grades?
What?
Enlighten me.
I mean, it could, but it absolutely doesn’t.