Help need contractor tiling advice..not sure what to do.
I'm renovating my kitchen and bathroom. The previous tile was remove completely to the wood sub board and new rock in the bathroom.
I always hear bad stories about home depot so I opted to spend a little more to get better tile with the anticipation of less warping etc. To my surprise, my kitchen looks like a 3D floor and actually looks significantly worse than my inlaws HD tile job. How does this happen? Is this normal? Can a tile guy walk away and say this is good work? I'm not an expert but would be interested to learn how this happens. I
The second issue is in the bathroom. Looking at the cuts, the left side of the bathtub area is cut significantly different than the opposite side, both will cover the same width. Is this typically? Shouldn't it be symmetrical?
Based on these 2 issues, I am really hesitant to move forward with the tile contractor.
Would really appreciate any advice here before things get worse. I feel like I'm paying good money and geting poor quality work.
Posted Jul 13, 2019, 12:07 PM UTC
Picture 1. They installed at a half offset, which is absolutely the worst pattern to do with this type of tile - long rectangular LFT. Laying it in that pattern shows they don't understand best practice (max 1/3 offset, ideally closer to 1/4 or 1/5). They also obviously don't use both SLC + LASH/leveling spacer systems based on their result, or they use them incorrectly. They might not even be using the correct trowel size for LFT.
Pictures 2 & 3. Sometimes tilers will center each wall, sometimes they'll "wrap" the tile around the whole way. It's personal preference and aesthetics imo. I'd rather go symmetrical in this situation. Also, it's a bit of a weird offset pattern once more. Also, usually ideally you don't have the cross spacers on their side unless you need to tweak a line because either you fucked up your level line or the tiles are sizey.
More interesting to me personally is the question of waterproofing for that shower. What system are they using, what products are they using?
I'm an apprentice tiler and I wouldn't be happy at all with putting my name to these pictures. But I'm anally retentive and try to achieve the best possible results.
This guy asks the right questions. I have 9 X 36 wood look tiles and they are offset 25% or 9 ".
This is what it should look like. https://imgur.com/bhvHRPm
They should be installing the tile like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Way5bMh-eYg
Also shower water proofing is very important, Tile and grout is not water proof. You should be waterproof before they every put the tile on it.
What will happen if they don't do your shower properly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ct9igRN4U
That last video was painful. The bought all the most expensive material and used it all wrong.
Yes I felt the same way.
"Hey, I've started a tiling project but ran out of time, can you take a look at this job for me and quote how much you'd charge to finish it?"
Walks into bomb site, they've started in the corner with zero care for plumb level or square, it's obvious they've gotten in over their heads and thought eh, I'll just hire a tradie and they'll finish it for half what they'd have charged minus the materials I'll supply since I've done half and we've got the materials here already
Sees container of mostly used mastic in the bathroom with 12"x24"/24"x24"
Walks the fuck away quoting far more than I'd have charged to do the whole job telling them it all needs to be re-done because they've done things wrong from the get go, so that I don't get the headache of dealing with the fuckups and having to explain where why and how they've done EVERYTHING wrong
Actual situation that happened to me a couple of months ago when I got offered a "small side job" through a mate.
The first couple of times I walked into a situation like that it took me a long time to figure out that everyone involved in the project before me was partially culpable. How could no one have honest intentions?
Now I see that it’s not so uncommon.
Most of the stuff that contractor fucked up is all stuff you could learn after a day of watching youtube videos or even just following the manufacturer's instructions.
Is that luxury vinyl or is it ceramic? If ceramic, can I have the brand and model? I’ve never seen such pronounced scrapes.
Floor and Decor had a tile very similar(maybe that tile) a while back but I have not seen it for a long time. I thought about recommending it but had some reservations because Plano flooring is hard enough to work with as it is haha. On the ones I saw they had uneven edges so I imagined it would make lipping more of an issue.
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Believe its this tile Refin Larix 6 x 30 Sun
ceramic
Marazzi American Estates Spice 9 x 36
Local tile shop wanted $6 a square foot.
Found it online for 2.20 with shipping it was around 2.60 a square foot.
We ordered extra because it was B stock. But 95% of the tiles where perfect.
You can't see the scrapes in the pictures they post on there websites. But in person it is amazing. And you can see them easy in my pictures.
Master bedroom during remodel.
https://imgur.com/32JtFCh
After remodel
https://imgur.com/O5WtkE4
Appreciate the thorough response. I added an additional photo, its about a 1/3 offset. When I question the contractor his response is that the tiles were curved. Again, I went to a tile store and bought good tile, not just off the shelf HD. Any thoughts on how to counter?
Terms of waterproofing, I don't think there is any to be honest. Its just green board. Is that incorrect as well?
Carpenter here. I do alot of tile work.
As others have said, and for the same reasons, that floor is garbage. It could very well be because the tile was bowed, butthe contractor should have noticed this on tile number 1 or 2, stopped work and brought it to your attention.
I hate to break it to you, but that whole shower needs to come out. There is no waterproofing like Redgaurd or Kerdi over the tile backer. That shower WILL leak. If the fucked the walls up I'd be willing to bet they fucked the pan up too.
As for the shower layout...is there supposed to be a vertical accent strip to the left of the mixing valve? Also the back wall most certainly ly should ha e been played out symmetrically. The fact that it wasn't is initial stupidity/layzyness on the contractors fault. He didnt want to make two cuts on tiles on the left side. There is no other reason for this.
You MAY be able to save some of that tile by popping them off the walls and scraping them down.
Word of advice for future projects, do NOT use HD or Lowes for any contracting. Their subs are almost universally terrible and need to provide almost zero references/proof of quality work when first hired by HD. All they need is insurance and a license # and literally anyone can get that. Source contractors through friends/family or other contractors that you already trust.
Edit: Also don't buy any sort of Tile from HD. It's all usually terrible. The buy the cheapest brands/models at ridiculously low rates because the need to stock 10,000 stores with all the same shit. Go to a tile store. You may end up spending an extra $1-4 dollars/sqft but the ext re a cost is worth the quality/warranty. You can also ask them for quality contractor refferences.
Sorry for spelling/grammar errors. Sitting on a bucket at a jobsite on mobile lol
That's what I don't understand, if it looked like shit, why continue? This tile was purchased from a reputable tile shop, wasn't just cheap tile from HD. Even if it was bowed, from readings and youtube, proper spacers, level floor and mortar all play a part and could have minimized the appearance of curves in the tile. Is that about right? I need to build my case back to the contractor.
I think the vertical strip is to hold the tile up in the interim? I really couldn't tell you at this point. Nothing looks symmetric and looks like they just cut as they go, no pre-layout of any sort.
Terms of the contractor, my GC hired him to do the work but everything just looks like shit. He is doing the carpentry work which has been great but the tiling is awful.
Good to know about the waterproofing. Definitely just green board topped with mortar/tile.
Because that's just what some people do. You don't get paid for time not working due to delays. Sucks, but that's the attitude when they're doing quantity not quality work.
This type of tile can be bowed no matter where you purchase it from, the larger the tile the higher the likelihood. It's to do with how tile is made with modern processes. This video from Sal DiBlasi (very respected setter in the tiling world) will explain dealing with it a bit more/better than I can with text.
I think he's questioning whether or not you're putting mosaic to fill the gap or something.
I'd go back to your GC, and start dealing with him rather than the tiler. It's his job to manage his guys, and this obviously isn't living up to your expectations.
If it's just green board, you'd almost be guaranteed to be pulling that shower down within a decade.
Wait. The tile setter is also the carpenter??
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There are processes to combat the bow, but you can only really fix about a 1/16" of bow without it being noticeable. The tiles on your floor look like they're bowed 1/8 to 1/4" which is HUGE. Talk to your GC and voice your displeasure. Ask questions about proper techniques, waterproofing, etc... if he says there is water proofing ask for brand names and get him to put it in writing because he is 100% lying to you.
I bought Chinese slate tiles at HD by literally taking apart box after box, combining good with good until I had enough for my job. I had a discard rate of over 60%. Only opted out of a few when I got home and installed, better than returning a dozen boxes though.
The amount of time that you you spent doing that though could have covered the cost of buying nicer tiles. Say your hourly rate is $60/hr and you spent 2 hrs sorting tiles. You just spent $120 to do manual labor for no reason.
HD is good for tools and construction materials. Finishing materials at big box stores are always terrible (in my professional experience).
Ah shit, I was looking at the "H" pattern rather than actually at the tile, lol.
Yes, these tiles typically do come curved to some degree, it doesn't matter where you buy them from, but you check them by putting two together face to face and checking the gap at the edges. Big gap = no bueno tile.
Basically, I won't touch those tiles without a flat floor (i.e if its not flat, I'm pouring self leveler/smoother and charging for the prepwork if the client agrees). I also won't touch them without the "leveling" spacers. If you use them right, they can actually pull higher sections of the tile tight down into the bed and you can basically get the "uninterrupted credit card slide" level of flatness out of them.
If it's just green board, that's bad. Liquid applied waterproofing membrane should be going over green board and it should be fully tanked up. Although to me it does look more like cement board. Do you have any progress pics from just before the wall linings and just before the tile started going up?
For reference. Green board is "moisture resistant". It's not waterproof. Same goes for cement board. There are waterproof board products out there, they still need sealing at joints and changes of plane. There's multiple ways to waterproof cbu and/or green board. Liners behind the [cbu] walls tied into the pan liner, liquid applied membrane over either board product, sheet membrane applied over board product (with this it's good to check manufacturer spec - some will say do or don't with xyz). Grout and tile are not truly waterproof, at best they're rated as impervious but even that definition still has an allowance of a [miniscule] water transfer rate.
They always blame the tile. It is there responsibility as installers to do a good job. If the tile was bad, why did you install it?
Are you sure it's 1/3 offset? I think you would be every 3rd tile before a seam lines up, no t every other....
I asked for 1/3 as thats what the box and tile shop suggested I use. I added another photo to the link. let me know what you think.
Eesh. So it looks like two 36" tiles covers the entire distance that's being tiled, yeah? So what they should have done is a pattern like this:
Full tile|full tile
1/3 tile|full tile|2/3 tile
2/3 tile|full tile|1/3 tile
Full tile|full tile
As well as fixing all the lippage issues.
This looks like half off set, you can see the grout line every other tile. You don't do that with wood look tile.
It's not actually half offset, it's a weird ladder stagger that shifts 33% then 66%. Literally never seen anything like it before.
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How should I tile my bathroom with hexes that are like 9.5 by 11 inches? What do I do along the side of the tub, and should it go up to the drywall (greenboard)? Or should the edge be grout?
Preferably on the walls and floors ;)
It depends entirely on what your actual plan for doing the bathroom is. Assuming you're talking tub with shower head, put the wall linings up around (ideally CBU rather than green board but eh, we use green board here). Hang it so it falls over the flange of the tub and leaves a small gap (so moisture can't wick up if any gets in there). Use neutral cure silicone for a bond breaker between that. Liquid applied waterproofing membrane on all walls of the shower enclosure (1' above the shower rose or 6', whichever is the greater measurement), use butyl tape to tie it into the tub. Tile on top, use the correct adhesive. Ideally a "non-slump" (protip: it still slumps) self mixed variety. Create a level line all the way around with a good quality level and/or laser and use that to start your first row or two. Use either bullnose tile or aluminium trim edging to finish off the sides. Edges should never be grout, grout goes between tiles only (and maybe between tile and trim if you oversized your trim accidentally). Also, for changes of plane use bathroom rated silicone - make sure to pump enough to bind to either edge of what you're filling, then use a popsicle stick and soapy water in a spray bottle to contour it (would advise practicing on a throwaway makeshift corner first).
I could expand significantly further on each point but it gives you basic building blocks to work off of, and I don't feel like writing my usual novels right at this point in time :)
I have Hardie backer for the shower walls.
I'm mostly concerned with how to make the floor look good with such a weird shaped tile. Like how do I cut it to make it look good
It depends what you're cutting around, how tight you need to be, whether or not you're covering over your cuts.
For instance, around the edges of the room with standard porcelain I'll allow ~5mm off my cuts knowing that skirtings and/or wall tiles are going over top (~8-12mm thick typically, ~3mm bed of adhesive), so I don't want/need to have it appearing perfectly tight and neat (there's also the whole expansion/contraction thing).
If I'm cutting around a toilet base, then as long as the toilet is given sufficient support I'm not fussy in terms of how much of the floor under the toilet I cover.
If I'm cutting around a curved acrylic shower tray, I'll probably paper pattern scribe around it so I can get it fairly tight so the silicone bead doesn't end up looking horrific or anything.
As far as tools to cut with. Wetsaw, snap cutter, angle grinder, tile saw, hell, you could even go oldschool and using a tile coping saw (please don't do this). There's even more methods available though they work on the same principle. It just depends what ones you're willing to buy and how efficient and useful they'll turn out to be. I do all my cuts dry, straight lines running through the tile on a snap cutter, anything that can't be done on the snap cutter gets cut using an angle grinder (115mm with diamond cutting blade, the blade itself used depends on the tile I'm cutting and the finesse required). Americans that "do a bit of tile" typically have a fetish for doing literally everything on a wetsaw (waste of time if you do much tile at all imo). Most of the good pros just use anything and everything that works efficiently for them up to their standards, within reason.