I'm saying this as a European. It's really depressing how much people look at the government as solutions to everything on this continent. Some European countries even have monarchs, in which they worship a person as if they are a god.
Posted Aug 14, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC
Is this satire about the American poor constantly voting against their own interests due to being "temporary embarrassed millionaries"
No, I don't think its satire. That or hes consistent in his satire to such a degree I can't tell he if he is serious.
That or hes consistent in his satire to such a degree I can't tell he if he is serious.
The best kind of satire.
Wheres Fairfax at, he could learn something
Poe agrees.
Those who claim "the American poor vote against their own interests" don't understand that: (a) the American poor is a diverse group with many different interests; and (b) haven't spent any time with the subset they are criticizing in order to understand their interests.
Not only that, but by their own standards, it’s just wrong. The American poor by and large vote Democrat.
I find that to actually be against their interest but I don’t imagine the Democrats agree with that.
The original quote says that "socialism never took root in America because ..." Voting Democrat is not voting socialist.
Yeah, its the working class that votes Republican not the poor.
Well, that's not really true either. Example
A lot of them have too much self respect to want to become rich through handouts. Also, understandable scorn for the uber-rich
The left just can’t imagine having consistent principles. It’s just fucking mind-boggling to them that lower income people don’t vote to strip the 1% of everything they have, and then some.
ahhh, yes. The "left" wants to strip the 1% of everything they have Talk about imagination. Hope you don't have allergies with all these straw men you're beating up on. The left can imagine consistent principles but you won't imagine them having them; even if they were you'd find some inconsistencies within a loose group of millions of people. And everything they have? Let's talk about the estate tax: woe is my fucking life if I only get to inherit 5 million instead of 10. My family will starve.
What makes you think you’re owed HALF of somebody else’s money? So because they’re gonna pass away soon, they can’t choose where to put their money? With their wife and kids? Is it more fair that it goes in the hands of YOUR family?
These are some ass-backwards “principles”...
Yeah! It's not like cutting taxes isn't a sustainable economic policy!
I just said that it’s about principles, not “sustainable economic policy.”
But even then, how is taking away 100% of the 1% wealth “sustainable?” You think people, rich or poor, are gonna be willing to bend over, get themselves fucked in the ass by the Government, and allow them to take away all of the wealth that they’ve worked to accumulate?
No, they’re gonna flee, and take that money with them, and now all the poor souls you’ve fought to protect are outta jobs because they’ve been replaced by robots or people overseas 10x faster than before.
It’s just fucking mind-boggling to them that lower income people don’t vote to strip the 1% of everything they have, and then some.
I would actually love to raise federal taxes on the poor (they pay nothing now), and get rid of all federal welfare programs. Lets keep welfare at a state level.
Then lets put up borders between the red and blue states. This will be fun.
Your trolling skills could use some work. Don’t waste people’s time with these satirical responses, lefty.
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Does it matter if it's satire? He makes an excellent point.
I don't think you understand the meaning or the intent of satire.
If we suggest eating babies due to the Irish Potato famine, the point differs greatly if its satire or not.
But OP's sentiment makes sense, does it not?
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That's such a dumb fucking statement anyhow.
The great thing about the US is as long as you're not a fuck up... You can live extremely easy. And more govt doesn't help the little person.
The US is one of the very few countries in the world (possibly the only one) that was originally formed on strongly individualistic values. In Europe, the individualistic cultural revolution never really took place, and it remains a collection of collectivist societies, in which the notion that the "collective good" always outweighs the individual interest is taken as an axiom.
Europe never really had its own George Washington or Thomas Jefferson. Arguably the most individualistic major party in Europe, the UK Conservative Party, is still a bunch of hardcore collectivists by our standards, bowing to the queen and supporting universal-just-about-everything.
In Europe, the individualistic cultural revolution never really took place
Europe never really had its own George Washington or Thomas Jefferson
Where do you think Washington and Jefferson got their ideas?
Why do you think that's relevant to the statement you quoted? Where the ideas come from isn't necessarily where the revolution happens. I mean, Communist ideas came from Germans, but the communist revolution never took place in Germany and Germany never really had its own Lenin or Trotsky.
The central contention was:
The US is one of the very few countries in the world (possibly the only one) that was originally formed on strongly individualistic values.
That's obvious nonsense; the Founding Fathers cribbed a lot of ideas from fairly recent European philosophers and were well-versed in Greek and Roman history. Ignoring that those ancient societies had their own "strongly individualistic values," modern versions of European states (e.g. post-Revolution France) were absolutely founded on "strongly individualistic values."
It's just bad history to justify American Exceptionalism, to support a bad OP that's a reflection of a poor understanding of modern Europe.
Communist ideas came from Germans, but the communist revolution never took place in Germany
Speaking of bad history, read up on the German Revolutions of 1848:
The middle-class elements were committed to liberal principles, while the working class sought radical improvements to their working and living conditions...
That's referring to the Communist League, a prominent German party that was a major part of the Revolutions. The Communist Manifesto was written in 1848 as their platform.
The US is one of the very few countries in the world (possibly the only one) that was originally formed on strongly individualistic values.
In order for your criticisms to make sense you need to interpret "countries" as "governments," and "originally formed" as "since a revolution."
Speaking of bad history, read up on the German Revolutions of 1848
A communist revolution taking place would result in a communist state. There has never been a German revolution that resulted in a communist state.
By observing how the collectivist authoritarian system in Europe was working out.
You sure there weren't any European philosophers that informed them? You sure there wasn't any Greek and Roman influence?
Might want to flip through those 6th grade history notes again.
I was being flippant. Of course it's not true that there weren't ANY classical liberal-types in European history, but it's also true that at the time of the Revolution those ideas weren't exactly carrying the day in England or most of Europe.
Your point is very well taken and in fact it's one I use to defend Constitutional originalism against the perversions of, for example, the Warren Court.
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Jesus christ. Do you really think, as a European yourself, that all people out here, across different countries with different cultures and laws etc. think the same? I thought only non-Europeans had that idea about this continent.
Yeah, alot of countries have monarchies in place. In my country no one gives a shit, people just make memes about them and want the monarchy to recieve less taxpayer money.
What country in Europe are you from? I am really curious as to where this sentiment supposedly exists.
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Yeah I don't understand peoples apologetics when it comes to this. You have a queen, you have a queen. The palace is littered with the spoils of stolen peasants wealth and history that is nothing less than disgusting and contempible serfdom. And yet people brush it off like "oh it's just for show".
Get the "Show" on the fucking road then, people. It's a joke that belongs in the dustbin of history. We don't celebrate this kind of "Heritage" any more than we celebrate slavery. Keep it in the museums but get it the fuck out of the room.
Wait until you get to high school and read about the ancient Greeks. Your mind will be blown.
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What's even more "amusing" is what (German) right-wing "extremists" want was center-right mainstream (in Germany) 20 to 30 years ago.
yeah I 100% agree. It's truly sad that the USA goes into the same direction.
(but not every country in europe is hopeless. switzerland is pretty awesome compared to other countries)
There are many Europeans that understand what the American Revolution was and what it meant for the world, but there are many that very much harbor the old peasant morality of a good, humble servant and internalize their attitude of serfdom towards the state. I hate to say it but i don't think the English ever really escaped the monarchy. They still think of authority as coming from the government, and not individuals.
It’s really unfortunate that we have guvt type people in America, too. They’ve already taken out the first, now they’re working on the second. Nothin but dominos to them. They actually think that my right to bear arms exists because of the second amendment. They don’t even know what the bill of rights does.
I believe what he is saying is that Europe still has that serf mentality where you just follow orders from people higher up as opposed to America where people are more empowered.
This thread illustrates one of the strange things I've noticed about this group since joining. I keep seeing a pro-democracy ideology cropping up here. It would be one thing if this was just coming from a few posters. But I sometimes get the impression that it is taken for granted as an axiom, which is very odd for a group that's supposed to be libertarian.
I liked your title very amusing, too bad your text was garbage.
Have you tried arguing with a European about hate speech laws and how that isn’t “free speech”? It’s completely exhausting.
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that's an easy troll tag
They still honor their fucking monarchs. They will never be free.
you've had two bushes in office and almost had two clintons; you guys are hardly far off
And we elected a buffoon to prevent that 2nd Clinton from getting elected.
she's still stupid powerful tho, like a royal who didn't get to be an heir to the throne, with said heir being from a lot of wealth anyway
you may not have a monarchy but you still have rich powerful families running the show. I mean in britain the monarchy doesn't really even have any hard power
I too dislike the idea of living in a utopian society. If someone else doesn't die because they can't afford their insulin, then how am I supposed to experience happiness?
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10/10 troll
So close to perfectc.
What nonsense youve just stereotyped a whole continent.
Which monarchs are worshiped like Gods?
Here in the UK(where our monarchs are barely noticed by the public unless it results in a bank holiday)we're oppressed. They took the guns in the 90s, they took freedom of speech last decade. Meanwhile if you want to change any of these laws you can protest. As long as you apply for permission and permission is granted by the state. How is that not oppression?
A guy taught his girlfriends dog to do nazi salutes as a joke and he was locked up.
Only the far left would see the UK as a free country.
UK monarchs are the head of the church of England, so they come close.
The point of the UK monarchs is to maintain the close relationship between the different commonwealth countries. Something that's much more difficult under pure representative democracy because of the 180 turns the representatives might take.
As stated the reality is the majority of the UK public isnt interested in monarchs and actually the same is true about religion.
Maybe 20 years ago before multiculturalism changed the UK.
He wasn't locked up. He refused to pay the 200£ fine with the willingness to go to jail for this. After some time passed they just deducted the money from his bank account, without his consent.
yeah but how does the truth matter when his feelings are more important?
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Are you asking for an example of how you stereotyped an entire continent? Did you read what you posted?
How is he supposed to talk about Europe as a whole without making generalizations? Would you like him to make an exact list of the countries he's talking about?
Generalizations are fallacious. I don’t care what he does, or what he talks about. I’m just calling him out on his bad rhetoric.
"Europeans see themselves not as oppressed populists but as temporarily embarrassed members of a eutopian society"
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Weird how we've got a whole elaborate system of contracts making more contracts in the form of the European Union. Or is that feelings too
Like many historical institutions, the hereditary monarchy, though seen as reactionary now, represented progress at the time of its origin. That's because it was a solution to the problem of succession that was an improvement over civil war. Civil wars very often followed the death of an authoritarian ruler, with competing armed factions fighting for years and the general population suffering massive collateral damage.
Of course the institution of hereditary monarchy was justified (in the West at least) by the doctrine of divine right, which meant that the church got a lucrative supporting role.