[help] step back to “up and under” - travel or not
Posted Sep 26, 2019, 8:49 PM UTC
1352
Former college player here. Probably not called in the NBA or AAU, but that’s a travel in high school and college.
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Thanks man !
5
Even if it's not a travel it's bound to get called at least once.
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Go to any pickup game and they will call it a travel every time. Its not a travel, based on the rule. You can pick up your pivot foot but you cant land with it and the ball in your hand.
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You might get called for a travel in an officiated game, due to individual differences in officiating, and you'll NEVER get away with this move in pick up (if it were me, I would argue with you with the blistering heat of a thousand suns that you traveled).
However, by the letter of the rule as it is written, this is NOT a travel and COMPLETELY legal. You pick up your dribble as you push off your right leg, which counts as the gather step. Then you hit left-right as you step back, which establishes your left foot as the pivot, and counts as your 1-2 step. You never move either foot until you pump fake and step through with the left as you jump off the right. That's about as clean as an up and under gets. And finally, since you shoot the ball before the pivot returns to the ground, you did not travel.
Again for clarity - as the rule is written and interpreted by reasonable people, this move is 100% legal and is not a travel.
EDIT: This is embarrassing. I just looked at the video again, and noticed that the left foot steps through and hits the floor again. I don't know how I missed it the first time around. And, it looks like he lands with both feet at the same time on the step back. That makes counting the steps a bit less clear.
Per the NBA Rule Book, Rule No. 10, Violations and Penalties, Section XIII - Traveling, Subsection b 1:
"The first step occurs when a foot, or both feet, touch the floor after gaining control of the ball."
With the new changes to the rule book (which defines the "gather") coming down the pipeline, the new rule will read:
"The first step occurs when a foot, or both feet, touch the floor after the player gathers the ball."
The critical distinction here is how you count the steps. In this particular move, the player gathers the ball at the same time he pushes off his right foot to step back. If you're counting that as "the first step," then his second step is his jump stop landing. He is not allowed to pivot after coming to a stop on both feet as his second step, as per Rule No. 10, Section XIII b5:
"A progressing player who jumps off one foot on the first step may land with both feet simultaneously for the second step. In this situation, the player may not pivot with either foot and if one or both feet leave the floor the ball must be released before either returns to the floor. "
In this case, this is a travel.
However, if you count the jump stop landing as "the first step", since it is technically the first step after the gather, then he is allowed to pivot and step through, per Rule No. 10, Section XIII b3:
"A player who comes to a stop on step one when both feet are on the floor or touch the floor simultaneously may pivot using either foot as his pivot. If he jumps with both feet he must release the ball before either foot touches the floor. "
So, the step through count as his second step, making this a legal move.
After all of that, my gut instinct is to say this move is illegal, because you should not be allowed to jump stop and pivot - it gives the offense too much of an advantage. However, depending on how you count the steps, based on the new definition of the gather, this is still technically a legal move, given the language in the rule book.
What would definitely makes this legal would be if OP hung his dribble for a split second longer, and gathered the ball after he pushed off his right leg. That would clean this move up quite a bit.
As it is, the OP has successfully pretzeled my brain trying to figure this out.
7
It looks like he lands on both feet simultaneously, after jumping off his right leg. If this is the case, he has no pivot foot available, so any other step would be a travel.
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Edit: Sorry, you might be right. See my above edit for my explanation. My bad.
If he lands on both feet at the same time, then he has yet to establish a pivot foot. That's the point of a jump-stop. Which means either foot can be a pivot, which makes this move SUPER not a travel.
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I was implying that the jump off his right foot counted as a step. He gathers the ball after jumping off his left leg, then lands on his right leg, jumps off right leg and lands on both feet simultaneously. If you count the gather like this, then he cannot pivot without travelling. To jump stop without travelling, he would have to gather the ball mid-air between the last jump off his right foot and landing with both feet.
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Yes, I agree.
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I’m glad i’m not alone. I’ve spent the past hour watching videos, slowing down OP’s video, researching the rules.
That being said, it’s a travel.
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There you go. That edit looks much more thorough. The op may get away with it depending on how the ref sees the gather. That being said, i think a lot of refs will call it. The op should change his foot work or his gather like you said, so that the move is completely legal, with no ambiguity. A good ref will not call it at that point.
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Agree 100%. And, if he never puts the left foot back down, I think it would still be legal under the written rule.
I wouldn't have looked through this again if you hadn't made your point. Good looking out.
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You have to come up on both feet at same time if you don’t want it to be a travel
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if that's the reason you think this is a travel then I don't think so.. explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUgRw8JeSwk but I'm still unsure if this is a travel because of other reasons.
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What part are you confused by? Watch it at 9:30. You have to gather the ball in the air before landing on both feet simultaneously to legally do that. You're not doing that. You're gathering and then taking a step on your right foot and hopping onto two feet. So you cannot pivot after that or take a step
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Forgot to mention, dribble when you step back*
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The up-and-under move by itself is not a travel by the book, but this is so hotly debated and a lot of people aren't aware that you are allowed to pick up your pivot foot and stand on your non pivot foot provided you shoot or pass before the pivot foot comes down.
That being said, your "stepback" or side step is a travel. You gather the ball too early, with the right foot still on the ground after both of your hands are on the ball. After side stepping left at this point your left foot is the pivot foot, but you execute your up and under as if the right foot is your pivot. If the right foot was the proper pivot foot the entire time the up and under would have been fine.
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Perfectly stated thank you
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If you ever stop, and then take two steps that long after dribbling it’ll be called a travel. The step back counts as a step bc you picked up the ball to do it, then you stop and took two more for the up and under so yeah that’s a travel.
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Thanks for the explanation!
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Definitely a travel. Imo, your feet are too slow in keeping with picking up your dribble to be considered a gather step. I might be wrong here but I think you're travelling just from that step back. Even if you disregard the amount of steps taken in your step back. Since you step back to your left, you will be using your right foot to push off.
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If you land on your right foot first then left foot, you're hopping on the same leg which is a travel.
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If you land on your left foot first, that will be your pivot foot and you lifted that up to take your up and under.
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Or he lands on two. Which leaves him with no pivot. Still a travel. Just wanted to make the third option clear.
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Yes but jumping off your non pivot foot is rarely called as a travel. Even less so if its a turn around fade away.
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Because jumping off your non pivot foot doesn't automatically make it a travel
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no
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100% yes. Some people here will try to tel you no and they’re wrong.
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The jump-stop changes the situation. He needs to establish the pivot on the catch/stop.
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You're right
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Side step part is the travel, since after you gather ball you made a jumpstop then side stepped, one too many steps.
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No, no, no. The video you posted here in the comments explains it perfectly with a college ref explaining it. Calling this a travel is the same as calling dirk's one leg shot a travel - it is the same concept and number of steps. Also the same as jumping in the air to make a pass when your getting double teamed. NOT A TRAVEL. And before you argue with me watch the video OP posted a link to here in the comments. Now whether or not a ref will call this at certain levels of play is a different conversation, but that doesn't change the fact that this is not a travel. EDIT: https://youtu.be/UUgRw8JeSwk
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hey man, thanks for chiming in! That was my exact logic when trying to think of a counter to my step back but I was unsure.. but then people started calling my side step a travel and started questioning some of these comments.
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After reviewing the tape you did too much with that step back I can't defend that. The step though is what I wanted to talk about
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Really appreciate the review man. If I didn’t do the step through in combination with the step back, would this be ok?
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Honestly idk man
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It's totally a travel... As explained in the video. To do what they're saying is legal in this video, he would have to gather the ball between jumping off his right foot, and landing in a jump stop. He does not do this. He gathers prior to this point meaning he already took one step before landing on both feet. After this you cannot pivot with either foot. He can jump off both feet to shoot or pass. To do it legally he needs to change his foot work and gather point. The video is correct, it's the op doing it wrong that makes it illegal.
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I see, you're right
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This is travel before you even went for the up and under.
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The move itself is fine, you can step back into an up and under, it might get debated but it's fine.
The problem is your step back, usually when you step back when you put your feet down at the end you are taking your two steps and establishing your pivot. The problem you have is that you gather to early and step that you step back on counts as a step.
Adjust your step back and the move is legit
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It’s not a travel but loads of people think it is. That’s basically the thing with the step through.
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it is a travel because you do the step back, put down your pivot, fake and then pick the pivot up and drop it down, if you want it to be a valid and legal move u will have to use the hop so u can use the other leg for a pivot
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bruh yall wrong he picks his pivot up and puts it down b4 releasing the ball
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Yes
https://youtu.be/UUgRw8JeSwk
Your video is correct. But some refs and other players will still call a travel. You can argue till you are black and blue but it wont change their minds. If the step through is a travel then so is dirks fade away shot.
Yeah exactly right
I’m still confused after watching that.
At 5:32 in the video he states, you can pick up your pivot foot if your going to shoot or pass, anything else is a travel.
At 8:40 in the video they made it sound like if you push off one foot into a step back, and land on one foot first (which will establish it as your pivot) and then pick up that pivot foot to take another step, that’s a travel.
If you push off one foot into a step back, land on both feet at the same time, neither has been established as your pivot, so you can then take another step forward into the shot.
OP gathered stepped (doesn’t count as a step), landed on his right first , then left, then stepped again with his right. Is that not a travel?
Okay now I'm confused. OP's example is not a good example of what I'm trying to say, I'm more just talking about Carmelo's step through if you know that one. Or the video
Ignores OP's video, his movements are not smooth. After you gather and do whatever to establish a pivot foot, you can lift your pivot foot, jump off your non-pivot foot and shoot/pass. Its only a travel if you come down on your pivot foot with the ball still in your hands.