Posted Sep 11, 2010, 6:56 PM UTC
I'm always touched whenever the faiths of the world can overcome their differences and agree that Atheists are faithless swine.
Hey, they can understand "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" the same as anyone.
Thanks for sidetracking the topic and adding in your own bias.
How is it sidetracking? Is that not what the Preacher's wife said (minus the pork jab)?
I'm not saying it's bad. I get all warm and tingly when the Abrahamic religions can agree that I deserve to die because of my desire to sleep with men. Religious tolerance is a beautiful thing.
Wow, are you serious?
You understand that being open minded enough to open your doors to another faith entirely isn't that far off from being open minded enough to think that gays are just fine, right?
I'm not saying this woman is okay with them, but there are a lot of Christians who think homosexuality is part of who you are, and is wonderful. It'd be nice if you didn't just assume complete ignorance where there is no sign of it.
She says she's "respecting the fact that [Muslims] embrace a faith, even if it's not the faith I embrace." The subtext there is that those without a faith do not warrant respect at all. Platypusvenom was using homosexuality as a bridge to atheism which is what the quote in question discusses.
I have no idea about this woman's opinion regarding The Gays, nor do I mean to belittle the faithful who don't want me dead. I was just comparing the religiously motivated murders perpetuated by Jews, Christians, and Muslims (as well as the official pronouncements of their respective leaders) against my fellow non-heteros, to the unifying power of a distaste for those who fail to "embrace a faith".
there are a lot of Christians who think homosexuality is part of who you are, and is wonderful
I know "a lot" is a vague term, but it's worth pointing out that those 'homosexuality is wonderful' Christians constitute a very small minority: Wikipedia has a useful chart here and the article itself is worth reading.
Are you honestly bringing homosexuality into this? For the record, I am from Baptist/Muslim families with homosexuality intertwined; but what does that have anything to do with this? If atheism wasn't explicitly or implicitly mentioned, why drag it into every bloody thing?
huxtiblejones explains me a bit better
She says she's "respecting the fact that [Muslims] embrace a faith, even if it's not the faith I embrace." The subtext there is that those without a faith do not warrant respect at all. Platypusvenom was using homosexuality as a bridge to atheism which is what the quote in question discusses.
I worry you are taking much offense where none was intended. She respects someone because they have a faith. It stands to reason that she believes not having a faith is not a reason to respect someone (or worse, is a reason to lose respect for a person). I appreciate Atheism's ability to unite the usually warring factions of the faithful, so I commented on it (rather crassly, perhaps).
This same quality is present in homosexuality. I have read reports of homosexuals being murdered in the name of Judaism, in the name of Christianity, and in the name of Islam; and of at least one meeting of religious leaders from these three branches coming together to denounce the evils of homosexuality.
I am merely pronouncing gratitude that my mere existence is enough to get these three peoples to cease their fighting, and finally agree on something.
Wow " every bloody thing " really? This story is about religion and we are the antithesis of faith. Is it that we are not part of your delusional little club? Have you not been challenged before? The religious need to drop the sacred cow act and start understanding this fact, no idea is sacred and free from public scrutiny.
Yes, and your generalization is a beautiful thing, too.
I don't really think I generalized. I just said I was glad when a certain type of event occurs. A type of event that has and does occur. I'm not saying ALL people of faith hate Atheists; nor that ALL adherents of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam want to brutally murder me because I wannafuckadude. Just that some do, and I think it's cute.
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Well I must ask, why do you desire to? Why cannot you not simply chose to be normal, the way God intended you to be? Why must you go against nature? Just curious.
You might want to read about these things:
A gay person cannot chose to be straight just as a straight person cannot chose to be gay. You can blame God, if you want. Gay people have been around in all of history.
Why do you intend to live past the age of 40? That is going against nature.
I desire to because they are sexually attractive. Why are they sexually attractive? I dunno — that's something you'll have to ask God. I'm certainly not going against nature as all the gay animals and pre-Abrahamic gay humans will gladly attest to. I'm not interested in "normal"; I am interested in healthy and happy, neither of which are achieved by suppressing my desire to fuck some guy until he begs for the sweet release.
Can I ask you honestly if you are trolling or if you're being serious? I cannot tell.
Back under the bridge, Troll!
He did neither of those things...
Did you watch the video?:
"I think I will grow personally in learning to know about their culture, and respecting the fact that they embrace a faith, even if it's not the faith that I embrace" (her emphasis on the 'a')
I think you're reading a bit too far into it. Perhaps she does hate atheists, but that's quite a large assumption to make based on a few words. She was trying to express the parts of Islam she saw as positive, and she choose the fact they embrace faith.
I was just countering the charge that platypusvenom is guilty of "sidetracking the topic". The thing being responded to is right there in the video.
This could very well be true, in which case I'd have hoped she could find a better reason to respect her fellow human being.
Thanks for doing your part to see to it that the hivemind stays homogenous.
Should I instead read through all the comments and self-censor?
Wat?
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"Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies." — Joseph Campbell (Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor)
People like you make me wish there was a hell for you to burn in.
l should suffer eternal torture because you took offense with one statement I made on the internet? That seems reasonable.
Your statement expresses a sentiment of who you are and what you think. So yes.
I take solace in others using their hatred of me as common ground towards peace, therefore I deserve excruciating punishment? A punishment you apparently do not believe exists, but are willing to compromise your beliefs in this case as long as it results in my brutal torment? That doesn't sound like the kind of sentiments that gets someone into Paradise.
If a couple sentences on Reddit is enough by which to judge someone's eternal soul, you really ought to be more careful.
someone like me should suffer torture eternally because i don't believe in your god? are you hearing your hypocrisy you fucking pig?
I don't think anyone, least of all you, deserves eternal torture. I'm sorry, but I don't see the hypocrisy.
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Good on you. Really glad to see this.
Perfect example of the Chinese proverb, "It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."
What about lighting a candle and cursing the glare?
"It's better to close the curtains than to curse the glare." -Me
You mean... "Draw the curtains, I don't care"?
But, It's alright
They said something about vagina.
Edit: Someone makes an obscure Coco reference and you stroke them off but I give you comedic gold and get this. I'm takin' this act elsewhere.
"It's better to close the curtains and set them on fire for a really big light."
What if you've just stubbed your toe and the light switch is still across the room?
In bed?
Most importantly, I think it's key to highlight instances of openness and understanding like this with more fervor than the constant negative we're seeing now. I won't count on the media doing this of course, but if more people saw things like this happening, it could positively influence churches and communities elsewhere. /hippy
It bugs me that we only tend to focus on the negative as a nation in the media. With the bad things being reported way more than the good things, it's no wonder many Americans suffer from anxiety, stress, and depression.
Of course, not everything is puppy dogs and rainbows, and the big negatives do need to be reported from time to time (not every little bad thing that happens). However, focusing on - and thus rewarding - good behavior and kindness would do wonders for our perceptions as a nation.
"You know the old saying: if a dog bites a man, that's not a story, but if a man bites a dog, you've got a story there. So the thing that happens and happens and happens, no matter how heroic it may be, is not news." ~Joseph Campbell, expert on world religions
Really? I think it says a lot about christian "openness and understanding" when the one redeeming quality she finds in muslims (that she expresses) is that they at least are not atheists (as quoted in your title).
The other woman in the clip put it way better: "you see people for people and not for what they may believe"
"Making money gets more advertisement." ~Joseph Campbell, New Yorker - and expert on world religions
I'd call you an optimist, pacifist, and tolerantist, all positive imho. Not a hippy though, which is negative to me.
There is a church in my home town doing the same. http://www.airdrieecho.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2718781
As a Muslim, it warms my heart when things like this happen. We're told that any place where God is remembered and worshiped is a holy place, and if we don't have a mosque to go to for prayer, we're encouraged to pray in Churches, which is better than praying at home or outside. Unfortunately, it's not so easy for Muslims to do this because some churches can be hostile, or at least we are afraid they will be and therefore avoid them.
Prayer is something that Muslims and Christians can definitely come together on. We may not agree on how to pray or what things to say or not to say during prayer, but all we're trying to do is love God, and if you can't do that in a Church I don't know where you can.
We're told that any place where God is remembered and worshiped is a holy place the bible says the same thing. it's a small world after all for those who actually read their holy books huh?
We may not agree on how to pray or what things to say or not to say during prayer, but all we're trying to do is love God they can't even agree amongst themselves most of the time. the various kinds of baptists can't stand each other enough to have a unified baptist convention.
it's great to see these stories when they happen especially in the south because i know i for one get too used to the usual crap. i know the media doesn't help. your last sentence is very important to remember. I think most people of all religions want that. some may just not speak up for themselves for some reason. at least that's what I hope.
I think you included some of your own commentary in the quotes (making it look as if I wrote them), and thank you.
As a Christian, it warms my heart to read your comment...and I will pray with you anytime
We're told that any place where God is remembered and worshiped is a holy place, and if we don't have a mosque to go to for prayer, we're encouraged to pray in Churches, which is better than praying at home or outside.
I'm not sure how the first part of this sentence squares with the second. If you worship at home, then doesn't it become a holy place? In which case it is equally good for praying as a church or mosque or anything else.
Thanks for asking.. it's a good point. A church is a community gathering point, so in general more worship is done there by more people, which gives it better karma than an individual home. It's a principle in Islam that group worship is more valuable than individual worship.
It's a principle in Islam that group worship is more valuable than individual worship.
Hm, that's interesting -- you mean this is actually codified in the Koran or something? Or is it just cultural?
Honestly I don't know what the Qur'an says on that topic, but I believe there are prophetic traditions to this effect.
we're encouraged to pray in Churches, which is better than praying at home or outside.
my friend, what you said wasn't very accurate .. praying in churches is a disputed case between scholars.. about the ones who allow it, they allow it under certain conditions.. some of them are: 1) necessity, one can't find other place that's clean and prayer deadline is near.. 2) there are no images or status of idols inside the church ..3) when praying, you must not face any cross or icon .. and other conditions i can't remember... as you can see, most conditions don't apply nowadays.. it's wrong to say that "we are encouraged to pray in churches".. it's actually better to pray outside in a park on any open space.. our prophet ( peace be upon him) said: earth is made for me as a mosque and a cleaning material "dry ablution" .. ( excuse my poor translation) .. which means: earth ( dry land - dust - sand - rocks, grass, etc) is clean by default, unless there is an obvious recent "najasa" such as urine or blood on the spot that you are going to pray on.. then you have to look for another spot ..
We as in me and my community :)
I did remember hearing that it's recommended to pray outside generally
Good to this here.
the whole thing?
As an atheist, I get sick of this shit. Now show me some respect.
Are you saying that you want more churches to offer you a place to pray?
I don't see why not... we always like it when atheists come to pray
It should warm your heart, but it shouldn't matter that you are a Muslim or a Christian, or an atheist.
I just realized Muslim and Christian are capitalized but not atheists.
Well Islam and Christianity are both religions, while atheism is the lack of religion. Which is why they are proper nouns.
I have seen both Atheists and atheists. I am very much the latter, I think the former are the ones that tend to annoy everyone.
I don't see why not. Capitalization rules are funny in English, and the English language has no real authority on grammar and punctuation, so feel free not to capitalize muslim or christian, or do capitalize Atheist. The more experience you have with writing, the less respect you have for the rules of writing. :)
My dictionary in Google Chrome is showing that Atheist capitalized is "correct" (it accepts both, though).
Why was I down voted ???????
I am a reform jew in the south florida. My "synagogue" has been doing this for the past few years. Of course, you don't see things of this nature make the news. But some nut-job willing to burn holy books or even a fight of hate as to who can building a place of worship where, that does make the news and get more attention that it should. I am so sick of people and hate.
The reversed happened at my congregation a few years ago. Our synagogue was under construction, so we held services at the Presbyterian (PCUSA) church across the street.
Then I went to college at a PCUSA-affiliated school. When the Jewish student group was figuring out where to hold its once-a-semester services, I suggested the campus chapel. People looked at me like I was crazy because it had a cross on the wall.
well i can see the more conservative groups acting this way but a reform one? that's odd.
As a dude living in the bible belt, it does seem like the relative handful of "radical Christians" get a lot of airtime while the majority of "regular Christians" are actually regular, decent people.
Same could probably be said for most religions/ethnicities/fans of sports teams!
Isn't it "reformed jew"?
"Reform" in this case is a proper noun. It's just part of the faiths' name.
If you were making a joke that went completely over my head, feel free to ignore this comment and tell everyone embarrassing stories about me.
No joke. I always thought the phrase was "reformed Jew", as in a practitioner of a reformed doctrine.
Yeah, I can see how that would make sense. It's a reasonable question, sorry I got confused!
Actually, no. There's a specific reason why the reform judaism movement isn't the "reformed judaism" movement, which is because they don't consider themselves to follow some specific new set of rules, but follow a constantly changing, progressive, and relevant doctrine.
Huh. Interesting. Thanks.
They're liberal.
meh. It's what ever the proper term is.
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But ratings are what really matter in the news today.
This is exactly what we need to do as a nation and as a culture - Christian, muslim, buddhist, or any religion. Treat each other with respect even if we don't have the same beliefs.
Christian, muslim, buddhist, or any religion. Treat each other with respect even if we don't have the same beliefs.
Thanx for nothing.
/Atheist.
Don't get pissy, those are religions and don't you pride yourself in not having a religion. You wouldn't want to be included with them if he had written athiest.
I would like to see all religions of the world gang up on the crusading atheists.
"Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies." — Joseph Campbell (Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor)
interesting. Could you explain real quick what he means by metaphors? as in most of the bible and Quran are simply stories?
To be brief... You have to think pretty hard why religion crops up all over the world, why such similarities. You can call them stupid and people delusional, but that ignores how widespread and reoccurring they are.
It is all projections from the human mind. It is the subconscious. Some quotes...
"Shakespeare said that art is a mirror held up to nature. And that's what it is. The nature is your nature, and all of these wonderful poetic images of mythology are referring to something in you. When your mind is simply trapped by the image out there so that you never make the reference to yourself, you have misread the image.
The inner world is the world of your requirements and your energies and your structure and your possibilities that meets the outer world. And the outer world is the field of your incarnation. That's where you are. You've got to keep both going. As Novalis said, 'The seat of the soul is there where the inner and outer worlds meet.'" ~Campbell
"Heaven and hell are within us, and all the gods are within us. This is the great realization of the Upanishads of India in the ninth century B.C. All the gods, all the heavens, all the worlds, are within us. They are magnified dreams, and dreams are manifestations in image form of the energies of the body in conflict with each other. That is what myth is. Myth is a manifestation in symbolic images, in metaphorical images, of the energies of the organs of the body in conflict with each other. This organ wants this, that organ wants that. The brain is one of the organs." ~Campbell
"On some levels a private dream runs into truly mythic themes and can't be interpreted except by an analogy with a myth. Jung speaks of two orders of dream, the personal dream and the archetypal dream, or the dream of mythic dimension. You can interpret a personal dream by association, figuring out what it is talking about in your own life, or in relation to your own personal problem. But every now and then a dream comes up that is pure myth, that carries a mythic theme, or that is said, for example, to come from the Christ within." ~Campbell
Unfortunately, as long as there are those out there who believe that their one true religion is more correct than someone else's one true religion, this will not become commonplace.
I will respect a person but I will not respect ignorance. The conflict comes when a person identifies with their ignorance.
This is exactly the same thing religious people think they do with respect to non-believers. The problem is that everybody thinks they know something that they don't. It's the worst kind of ignorance. Hopefully that woman quoted in the title is one step closer to realizing that maybe people have several different faiths because nobody knows a goddamn thing about a mutually exclusive nature of reality.
Also, thank you downvoters for downvoting me. Maybe more people will see that this has been downvoted to oblivion and click on it and read it to find out why.
I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God, Allah, or any other deity, pantheon, or religious faith. I reject the claims made by theists who say they know for a fact there is a god or gods as readily as I reject a claim made by a friend of mine who says he once saw a real ghost.
I do, however, subscribe to one over-arching "belief" -- love your neighbor as you would love yourself. I don't demonstrate that belief as well as I could all the time but I try.
I'm not going to downvote you because you have contributed to the discussion (read the Rediquette). I do not, however, agree with the tone and tenor of your post, especially when you say things like:
I will respect a person but I will not respect ignorance.
That immediately implies that you will not respect a person of faith which you, presumably, find to be "ignorant". I would never, ever tell a religious person they are "ignorant" for their beliefs which is what you are doing here. That's why you're getting downvoted: you are ascribing ignorance to people of faith because you find faith to be an ignorant thing.
Atheists come in all stripes. There are those who are purely logical, those who are extremely angry at the idea of religion at all, and everything in between. You seem to be closer to the second kind.
I cannot agree with that in any way because what you said treats people, like my neighbors of faith, in a way I would not want to be treated. A person may have beliefs that I think are wrong or misguided or even sad but that doesn't mean I get to humiliate them for it.
Instead, why not just say, "Wow, people of two different faiths actually practicing the love and charity they preach. Kudos."? If you want to go on an atheist rant about how terrible and ignorant the beliefs of entire communities you likely know little about are, there's r/atheism. I'm sure you'll find like-minded people and get some easy karma. But coming to this thread, which is obviously filled with a lot of believers, to spew your "religion is dumb and ppl who believe it are ignorant derp de derp!" crap is going to get you downvotes my friend. Just how it is.
TL;DR: You would probably do well to examine your own beliefs a little more closely and ask yourself why you even believe what you believe at all.
I would never tell a religious person they are ignorant because it would be absolutely pointless to do so. Telling someone who truly believes they are right that they are wrong does absolutely nothing if the essence of what they believe implies that they do not believe you.
Also, I am not an atheist and I examine my own beliefs every chance I get. The fact that I am going to get downvotes in a thread full of believers does not surprise me. If anything, it is amusing. Thanks so much for not downvoting me though. I am forever in your debt! If someone wishes to interpret my distaste for ignorance as a distaste for the people themselves, that is their (your) prerogative; not mine.
Every single person in this thread could use a little humiliation. Egotistical people (i.e., everybody) see humiliation as a bad thing, and that is part of the problem.
I already try to love my neighbor as I love myself. That is why I try to get them to see the error of their ways.
tl;dr You have not told me anything new.
tl;dr You have not told me anything new.
Nothing, indeed, may be new under the sun.
I would never tell a religious person they are ignorant
Good. But you did do that. In an indirect manner, sure, but if you re-read your original post (I just did) it's pretty clear you're attacking people of faith. You're looking down your nose at them, you're being intolerant of their beliefs by attacking their beliefs and equating it with ignorance.
Remember that friend I mentioned who swears he saw a ghost? I simply told him, "I don't believe you saw a ghost.". That's it. What's so hard about that? You would likely have me tell him, "Believing in ghosts is ignorant.". How do you think that would make him feel?
Look, maybe he did see a ghost. I don't believe it for a second, but what good would it do me or him to insult the guy's belief, especially if it's a belief he holds near and dear to his heart (i.e. something like religion)?
Maybe all you self-proclaimed atheists are just identifying with your ignorance of Jesus Christ, what do you say to that eh!
More seriously, are you accusing the hivemind of downvoting you for bashing religion? Hah!
I am not an atheist; I am an aspiring realist. I am referring to the hivemind which is much bigger than the one at reddit.com.
You're delusional. It doesn't matter what hive-mind is larger than Reddit if they aren't on this website down-voting you...so yes, you're accusing the Reddit hive-mind of down-voting you for bashing religion.
I'm sure I know thousands of things you don't. I'm sure you know thousands of things I don't. In each different case, one of us will be ignorant. As long as these people are showing love and tolerance to each other, I wouldn't fucking care if they believed in Santa Clause.
It's funny how people upvote your comment and ignore my next one which explicitly stated that I am not an atheist.
Treat each other with respect even if we don't have the same beliefs.
If I believe that anyone who doesn't believe like me should be converted to my way of thinking, by force or by trickery if necessary, will you treat me with respect too? Are you discriminating at all when it comes to beliefs? Are any and all beliefs accepted by you? If not, what are your limits? What are your deal breakers?
Don't know why you got downvoted. Very relevant questions.
My personal limits would be violence and destructive action.
I think respect is the wrong word, acceptance is much better.
I respect but a few select persons, acceptance is another beast. Nobody has any right to respect. Racism and misogynism(random examples) is 'fine' with me as long as you do not act on it, or support people who will act on it. There is a line between feelings and action.
As long as you have beliefs...
Atheists have beliefs. Not "God" beliefs, but they have beliefs. Belief in nature, science, rationality, etc.
(Quaker here)
I do not have any beliefs. I do not "believe" anything unless it could be proven.
Only a moron could downvote this.
ok.
Or stop pretending that any of their foolishness accurately describes the human condition and nature of reality.
edit - with the exception of Buddhism of course.
So you'd rather bang on about the correctness of atheism until everyone comes around to your view than show respect for religious people? All chrisfromneenah was recommending was showing respect. I'm a fairly outspoken atheist but, I have to say, I'm with him on this one. People are like kids: we won't make any headway until we first stop squabbling.
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There's very little to respect in religion
Nope, just being honest. I am a silent atheist pointing out the obvious. Your bandwagon jumping skills are just clearly more developed than mine.
r/atheism is that way ---->
Whoa. God forbid that people with atheistic viewpoints start speaking their mind outside their designated subreddit!
No, seriously. God forbids it. So stop with the heretical speech.
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r/obviousreality is more what I'm looking for.
Why you bring poop to circlejerk?
Buddhism is just as big of a crock as the rest of them, and a copout at that. All suffering is caused by desire, indeed.
No. Do a little research before you flap your gums.
Baby steps dude.
I agree.
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Or more importantly how few gods there are.
Yeah, there's only 13 of them.
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As a native Memphian, I never thought I would see the day
Don't get too excited.
How is it in Memphia?
I love this city. Sure, there's a higher than average crime rate but I've never had a problem or felt unsafe since moving back two years ago. There's a strong sense of shared culture here, great food, low cost of living. I'm happy.
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FTA "Midtown... is [Memphis'] hipster epicenter" ಠ_ಠ
I think you mean I should stay in more and look for articles about Memphis.
I'm glad to see some good press for The South for once.
FTFY
I'm especially glad to see good press for Memphis. It's a tough city to live in. I went to an improv comedy show tonight (Memphis has a pretty good improv scene, actually, considering how awful most of its standup is) and there were at least two jokes about how stabbings were par-for-the-course.
People weren't this jaded in Cincinnati, and Cincy's not a pretty city where crime's concerned.
I've only been to the airport. Would love to see more of the city.
That said, I'll stay away from North Memphis.
I live 5 miles away from this church. There is not a whole lot of crime out here. A 30 minute morning commute is worth not being stabbed.
I live in midtown and haven't had a single problem with crime. I strongly believe that if people who have fled east would get over their terrible perception of Memphis within the loop and help rebuild, this could be a great city once again.
What about BBQ?
Best BBQ in the world.
The Rendezvous sucks (tourist trap)... Central (on Central, not Summer) wins...
More Memphis BBQ suggestions, please!
Me too. The haven't been any good news from Memphis since Rameses II.
I'm a grown ass man and this brings a tear to my eye.
I'm more of a chest man myself, but it's nice to meet you. Glad this moved you.
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Stop throwing shit in your eyes so you don't have to cry.
I'm going to overlook the possible backhanded nod to atheists because it could be taken as 'we're all in the business of loving God' rather than 'at least they believe in a God'. Besides, this is pretty filled-with-win.
I used to go to a Quaker service in spite of being an atheist and I have to say that they're pretty awesome people. This article made me think of them. They don't believe in having a building that is exclusively sacred, so they usually just rent a hall. Whenever they build a church, it's just a big building with room for chairs. They believe wholeheartedly that it should be a community space, so they welcome parties, gatherings and other groups. A Quaker service consists of setting up a bunch of chairs in a circle and sitting in silence for an hour. Then they break for snacks. I can get behind that.
I'm Quaker too, although what they call a more "modern" version. (Not always a good one, but I try.) Thanks for saying what you did. Sometimes people need to be reminded that every person is an individual, that not Atheists think and act the same way and not all Christians think and act the same way. This video made my heart sing. I needed that today.
Awesome, thanks for this! As you can tell, I was very inspired by the Quakers I met and have learned a lot from them. One of the things that I especially loved was the idea of expressing discordance as a 'concern'. For those who have never heard this, Quakers place an huge importance on social justice and express this as a 'concern', i.e. "I have a concern with the way that the War on Drugs impacts justice and the American culture of fear". This is the phrasing that Quakers will use to discuss something that is important to them and worthy of action. It's an amazing word in that it forces people to be articulate about things that make them rage and it is to-the-point without being inflammatory. It does not make people defensive, so it invites discussion and debate. It's become a tic that has worked its way into my subconscious and I've noticed my friends and partners picking up on it as well. I wish all faiths encouraged activism and social justice!
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I'm a Quaker. We welcomed all faiths (and non-faiths) at our meetings. It was not uncommon to hear someone reading a passage from another religion and then mentioning how it effected them.
For the people not exposed to the religion, there is typically no 'priest' everyone sits in a circle in silence. If someone has something on their mind they break the silence, say a few words, and then return to silence.
Simply put, to a Quaker, the idea is that the light (or holyness) isn't in a building or church, but within each and every one of us (regardless of religion.) We try to be people of conscience first and foremost. So we prefer to meet in simple meeting halls or peoples living rooms to pray and gain insight.
I want to be a Quaker now. How is it done? Is there some site that lists Quaker services?
I'm a reform buddhist atheist subgenius jew currently, but I could stand to add some more religions in there.
Well, Quakers don't really have a process of conversion. If you believe in the same values you are called simply 'convinced.'
The core of the religion is the idea that God is available to all of us without the use of clergy or sacrament. That is, that a individual can receive guidance by listening to their 'inner light'. We don't do marriage with a priest but instead with a community, for instance.
That is the big difference, but like many religious descriptions doesn't even begin to give the whole picture. Quakers have a strong emphasis on conscience and action based on that conscience.
Additionally, there is the idea that the Bible isn't the point of Christianity as given by God, but instead that Christ's teachings are. So there isn't as much of an emphasis on the Bible as on trying to live in a Christ like manner. [That is really simplifying it, and I honestly apologize for my lack of eloquence here.]
There are two main types of Quakers, 'programmed' services which is more like a protestant church and 'unprogrammed' meetings (more traditionalist) which is a loose meeting where everyone sits in silence, meditates and give occasional testimony.
It sounds like you are very universalist so I would suggest attending an unprogrammed service. Also, it might be more interesting as it differs more from a typical protestant church. They might be harder to find, as they occur in peoples living rooms sometimes, but usually in a larger hall. Sometimes in something that looks more like a church, sometimes not.
You should be able to find them under "Religious Society of Friends" I would think. A service that references 'meeting' would typically be unprogrammed. If you can't find an unprogrammed meeting I would call a programmed church and ask them how to find such.
It will be a different experience that ends in tasty pot-luck food, so you can't really miss.
Kudos for being an unbitter atheist!
And kudos to all you non-uppity niggers out there! You truly are "one of the good ones"!
And kudos to commenters whose usernames reflect the content of their posts! For they shall inherit the thread!
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They don't believe in having a building that is exclusively sacred
Similar to Islam. You can pray anywhere on the planet as long as it isn't a "dirty" place such as a toilet. Everyone prays toward a single direction, the rich, poor which creates a sense of unity.
Mosques were a place where discoveries were made and science discussed. It was a place to stay if you had no where else. More than a worshipping building.
It was a time when religion was beautiful.
women are put behind the men, and many times there are separators too like curtains during prayer. seems pretty unequal. never seen a female lead the prayer or even do the adhan or anything. and that's just how it is today.
You look at it from a different view. I'm not going to go into details, but from my basic understanding, it is to protect the woman and so that men can concentrate in their prayer.
Islam doesn't like putting women in the spotlight as they are sensitive and this is something that benefits them. They have equal rights and everything and the separators, hijab and other similar "obstacles" and "gender inequality issues" are meant to protect women from perverted men and other dangers.
Islam has great respect for women and tries to protect them like a valuable jewel.
I come from a Muslim society. The most Muslim I'd say. That's bullshit. They just scoff at the idea of a female leader.
Why not just teach them self-defense and assertiveness?
This has to be a satirical comment. I want to believe humans aren't this delusional.
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THIS is how you win the war on terror. Not with bombs, not with killing, not with hate, THIS is the way to end the war, with love, with peace, with caring for your fellow man. Osama would not know how to deal with this. My hat is off to these TRUE Christians. Christ like Christians are scarce as hens teeth. I am amazed and impressed. This is the perfect ending to 9/11.
Right on! It takes some humility.
This is not news! Churches do, and have been doing many good things.
This is very true, but I will take this over the doomsday-sensationalist-highlight-the-hatred shit that I see too often.
BUT WE NEED TO SHOCK OUR READERS EVERY 3 SECONDS AND MAKE SURE THEY DON'T THINK THAT THE WORLD IS A GOOD PLACE!
How else would we get money?
So you prefer the news to be dominated by only the bad acts of churches?
Well, it would certainly help SE Cupp's case. <_<
This is the first I've heard of anything along these lines. Maybe it's because of all the hatred spewing over the Quran burning, but this video actually made me tear up. Obviously this is not scientific, but I'd say many more people know of the Quran burning/negative aspects of Christian/Muslim relations than do of positive Christian/Muslim relations. We should embrace positive news.
/Hindu
I am sure they have. However, it is newsworthy to point these things out instead of only pointing out the negative. With all of the intolerance being portrayed on the news recently it's good to see this kind of community.
I typed that, but deleted it, because it would reiterate the fact.
This shouldn't be news! FTFY
I think the whole point of the post is that finally, FINALLY, we see an American Christian on the tube saying something other than "Hate, hate, hate, fear, fear, hate, kill them before they kill us, hate, burn, they eat babies."
When I was confirmed back in the 8th grade we visited both a Jewish Temple and a Mosque. We were taught basic similarities and differences as well as what a typical service was like.
That is friggin awesome, and it should be mandatory for at least all media personalities.
respecting the fact that they embrace a faith, even if it's not the faith that I embrace
Translation: At least they're not atheists.
Maybe. But these words are an articulate way of expressing her bond with Muslims, regardless about how she feels about atheists. If she hated atheists, she'd phrase it this way, and if she didn't, she'd still phrase it this way.
Translation: At least they're not atheists.
Incidentally, that pretty much sums up what the Quran says about christians too. Us atheists, on the other hand, we're condemned to burn.
Are you an idiot?
As a Memphian I always enjoy hearing good things about my hometown, it happens very rarely, I'm afraid.
Better to see cultures mingle than collide. Even though I don't believe in god at least these people are trying to get along. Better than most.
Yeah I don't have problem either. At least until the god believers all get together and decide to get rid of the non-believers. Thats when things get scary.
Then we'll just science the fuck out of them.
Not if they fuck the science out of us, first.
We have stem cell research.
This sounds more like the good ol'southern hospitality we've hear so much about. Kudos.
This is excellent. I don't believe in a god, but I have this attitude that so long as you can accept me I'm willing to accept you. Since in the end we're all human, and we all need to get along.
In short, love your fellow man.
BAWWWW
Good to see people are banding together to celebrate their common ignorance, rather than the ignorance that drives them apart.
Thanks for being Christ-like, and not just Christians.
The world needs more of these people, instead of closed minded, radical sheeple.
To some extent, although there's a subtext of "at least they're not atheists!"
Why can't you just be glad there are religious groups not being dicks? It's a step in the right direction.
I'd be happy if more atheist groups were not being dicks as well.
In general I think people not being dicks is the thing we should be praising here.
Why can't you be glad about the step in the right direction, and also less-than-glad about the subtext of "at least they're not atheists"?
It'd be nice if the religious groups were, in addition to not being dicks to each other, also not dicks to Atheists. I know it's asking a lot, but that's what I'd like.
right on
I like to imagine you're right. But logically selective kindness is not always proof of a more general trend. It's easy to be kind to someone else who shares some things with you. Muslims and Christians share in their respect for the same prophets and for the Bible. When Christians begin to show this attitude toward all peaceful people, including atheists and everyone else, then I'll be able to sigh with relief. Until then I only wish it's a trend toward universalism and not just selective buddying up for the "people of the book" club.
Well if you'd get your views of religion from someone other than Jon Stewart hyping on the worst possible examples, you may find that Christians are pretty good people.
I'll smoke to that.
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Two religious groups will enter, engage in rational conversation, share stories of absurdity, guilt and fear and leave atheists?
no, it really isn't.
it doesn't matter what stupid, baseless thing you believe. It can be astrology, or phrenology, theism, or anything else. Ultimately there is a direct admission that imaginary things can be known by feeling, and that is straight up bad for society.
Religions have amalgamated and changed a thousand times by now, and by any meaningful measure, it just really doesn't make any difference.
True, but they are at least showing respect for a :different: faith than their own, which is a huge step in the right direction.
Not like it was enshrined in the first amendment to the US Constitution a few hundred years ago or anything...
no... it's pretty much exactly the same thing.
edit: well, let's just say that they already have respect for one completely ridiculous idea, what's the benefit in having respect for two? If it's there, I don't see it.
edit 2: my favorite part is that, while a lot of you seem to hate this point, none of you seem to be able to argue against it.
Preach it brother. We've been persecuted for far too long. Praise be to Dawkins.
Atheists really have been persecuted, they're the second least trusted group in America, beating out Scientologists by only a few percentage points.
It's also rather childish of you to mock atheism as if it were some kind of religion. That's perhaps the most egregious part of this issue - atheists don't have to hold any similar beliefs, they all just lack a belief.
Actually, I really didn't get that vibe. Anything specific jumping out at you guys that I'm missing?
Read the submission title for one.
I'm guessing this particular congregation might surprise you.
Where? I'm also an atheist and I didn't see that at all.
I think I will grow personally in learning to know about their culture and respecting the fact that they embrace a faith, even if it's not the faith that I embrace." (msnbc.msn.com) submitted 7 hours ago by NYC_Hound
^ bolded for you
sigh...shakes head
I didn't really get that at all, either. But personally, speaking as an atheist, I think that the 'atheist community' (lulz) can look out for itself and doesn't really get too bothered about the theists' attitudes to it.
What does bother me far more is the current attitude in america towards muslims, even fellow americans. So, basically, I would actually be happier to see muslims in america being treated better than I would be to see atheists more accepted.
Does that sound hippocritical?
If what you referencing to "at least they're not atheists" was that woman saying she appreciated they "embraced A faith", with a slight inflection on the "A" part. I think most Christians appreciate people of faith in general (maybe not ALL faiths). She MAY have been knocking atheists, but when you look at the actual text of what she says and ignore the slight vocal inflection all she said is she appreciates people of faith. I really think atheists sometimes need to stop being over-sensitive to Christians declaring their love of their faith, even though some unhinged evangelicals saying crazy slander against atheists needs to be called out when it ACTUALLY happens.
I see this kind of comment a lot, and it strikes me as strange. My church youthgroup is comprised of at least 50% atheists, and a good portion of the rest are fairly agnostic (like myself). I myself am a leader in this church, I've made it known that I'm agnostic, although I wouldn't hesitate to say that most think I'm a strong atheist. This isn't exactly a liberal hippy church either, we have your Young Earth Creationists in the mix as well, although they're dwindling in number.
The point is: if both parties are open, it doesn't matter who you are, Christian/Atheist/Muslim/Whatever else, then good things happen.
As a snide final comment, it's not only the religious who can be closed minded, radical sheeple.
I thought the exact same thing when I heard, "they embrace faith", then I had to research, "what is faith". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith Everyone has faith! So, how is this "at least they're not atheists!" come in to play?
"my notion of the real horror today is what you see in Beirut. There you have the three great Western religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -- and because the three of them have three different names for the same biblical god, they can't get on together. They are stuck with their metaphor and don't realize its reference. They haven't allowed the circle that surrounds them to open. It is a closed circle." ~Joseph Campbell, American and expert on world religion
No more rhymes now, I mean it!
You mean, like the Saudi Arabian citizens who were muslim and who hijacked a bunch of airplanes and ran them into buildings on 9/11/01?
So why didn't the US invade Saudi?
perhaps things would change if they.... wake up?
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Pulls out MAC-10
BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
Say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it's an ethos.
Mohandas Gandhi: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
its the sad truth. hopefully, one day, Christians will become Christ-like.
Christ was, of course, sectarian to the point of getting himself killed. Sometimes I wonder if people just spout bullshit because it sounds acceptably wimpy.
Explain, please.
Christ was a radical figure who challenged the status quo, and publicly denounced the upper class priests who had fallen into legalism and dogmatism.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
Matthew 28:19
EDIT: Seem to be getting a few downvotes from Christfags here. Tell me, how is this direct quote from Jesus himself, taken directly from the King James version of the New Testament, "out of context"? P.S. You are shitwads.
Here goes the cavalry!
Rational Discourse Upvotes, Ho!
In the words of Jesus, via Luke 14:26-27:
There's a whole bunch more like that.
Considering Luke wasn't actually there, and was a Roman historian, I don't really think anything in the book of Luke is actually relevant to what Jesus actually said or did. Assuming he said or did anything at all of course.
Bill Maher?
Exactly. Bill Maher, Pat Robertson, etc...
We need tolerant beliefs/religions, NOT aggressive ones.
Stuff like this makes me smile. :)
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why do we need tolerant religions at all? we need no religion, this is the modern age.
No, I was wondering whether Bill Maher had said that. After searching the interweb, I have discovered that he said that quote in his documentary "Religulous" (pretty funny movie, btw).
what makes you think we need beliefs or religions of any kind...
Imagine there's no countries.
It isn't hard to do.
Nothing to live or die for.
And no religion too.
I didn't hear about these people telling their followers to uphold a barbaric system of law like Jesus did. Oh, you were referring to the part where they used common courtesy, which people have had for millenia before Jesus came along?
I think he meant: like the man Jesus Christ, who was known to speak of love and tolerance.
I agree with this sincerely. I would add that even atheists can take a page on tolerance and just being polite and inclusive on matters like these.
amen.
I have come to learn that there are no "Christian" people left as described in the bible.
All that remains is the extremist American republican semi-faith founded on the social morals of the catholic religion.
Or maybe there are some good, solid 'Christians' just like their are good, solid Muslims, Jews, pagans, atheists, etc. The good Christians spoken of in the bible were just as rare then as good people of all faiths are now.
Christ would have never advocated following a religion other than the one he started - following 'false' religions is roundly condemned in the bible. If anything, this pastor is being inconsistent.
Maybe you should have watched the video. They aren't following any other religion. They have just opened the doors of their church for others to praise god in a different manner. Hence the comment about people being Christ-like (loving their neighbor) rather than just wearing the meaningless name-tag "christian."
In the original hebrew "Love thy neighbor" translated to "love thy fellow Jew". Christ didn't advocate the support of pagan religions even though he sent his disciples there to convert them.
Actually, the new testament was written in Greek, and no one is saying this preacher is advocating support of another religion. He is advocating support of other human beings. Anything else you want me to clarify for you?
Try reading The Gospel of Thomas.
Jesus of Nazareth was an ascetic Jew who was surprised to find a good Samaritan. I'd be guessing if I tried to say exactly HOW Jesus would react to Islam, but I suspect he wouldn't take too kindly to them.
/I'm not a Christian at all. While I was at college, I picked up a Religion degree to go along with my Chemistry. Everyone needs a hobby, mines studying religion and it's history.
So what exactly wouldn't Jesus like about Islam? I suppose you could argue that Jesus was actually more liberal than what Islam taught, such that Jesus would not advocate following any kind of religious rules whatsoever other than "be good."
First, your idea of Jesus is the American Jesus. Jesus was not some feel good liberal hippie.
Second, Islam's historical revisionism of Jewish history and his ministry, for example.
Actually there is simply no denying that Christianity is much more liberal than Islam and Judaism; there are very few forbidden acts. For example, Jesus was reported to have said that a person is defiled by what comes out of his mouth, not by what goes into it. When you compare that to something like, say, the prohibition on eating pork, it makes it seem as if Jesus was de-emphasizing dietary law. Then there is that stuff about following the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.
No, I don't have the American idea of Jesus. Jesus is Jesus, and I don't mean he's liberal in the American sense of liberal, such as advocating homosexuality and so forth. I just meant that Jesus was not as dogmatic and focus on the rule of law as say, Islam had been.
I'm thinking their denial of him as the Son of God might ruffle his beard a bit. He seems to think that's pretty much the most important thing in the universe.
You're referring to Christian theology that developed after the departure of Jesus. The deification of Christ is not something that Jesus taught himself, or at least many people believe he didn't teach that. Of course if Jesus were Christian himself, he would definitely disagree with Islam on theological grounds, but that's kind of a crazy argument to make. Saying that he was Jewish is a little more reasonable.
ah jesus the hippy
don't use the term liberal, it has no meaning in the context of this discussion. You can't judge someone from 2,000 years ago my a political standard of today. Hell, the term liberal would be meaningless talking about politics 100 years ago let alone 2,000 in a place NOT the U.S.
Liberal as in wanting to progress forward instead of conservatives who want to stick with the norm.
Jesus was a Jew who advocated a complete disregard for many of the sacred Jewish laws. He was liberal.
The terms liberal is not something new. There have always been people who wanted to move forward in time. The conservatives today are fighting for ideas and programs dreamed up by the liberals of the last generation.
I know... I had no intention of using it within the context of contemporary politics.
The recent abuse the word 'liberal' has taken in the USA in the last 10 years does not outweigh how it's been used quite happily for hundreds of years all over the world, and how it's still used on most of the planet today.
It was a fine and correct word here. Only Fox-poisoned readings get in the way.
Your apostrophe seems to have wandered through the desert and ended up 26 spaces too far east.
Are you serious? This is either a weirdly misguided statement or else just ignorance. You do realise it was a parable?
I got my RS degree while getting one in anthropology. Weird.
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I like the idea of Jesus being an asshole. It would explain Christianity a lot better.
jesus was from the middle east, im sure he met muslims everyday
Are you joking?
I think he's talking about Time-Traveling Jesus.
no, im not.
it must have been awfully lonely for the jews if it would have been just them.