Source
r/Professors•
EngrProf42

Our stupid curriculum

Yesterday, I was in my office with the door open and overheard my colleague talking with a student who was apparently failing his class. For at least 20 minutes, the student was explaining, in a condescending tone, why our curriculum was stupid and he really shouldn't have to take the class so of course he couldn't take it seriously.

My colleague was amazingly patient. He eventually got him to start talking about why he was failing and possible ways to change that.

Posted Oct 8, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

5651
ph0rk•

"Why did you pick this major/degree plan, then?"

31
EngrProf42OP•

Sadly, it's usually "because I want a good-paying job" or "my parents made me."

This student probably would have said, "Because I already know it so it will be easy."

I'm judging, I don't really know anything about it, just what I overheard. I alternated between amused and annoyed.

26
tpedes•

Your colleague is a saint. After about five minutes and a reiteration of what the student should expect to get from the class and the assignment, I would have said, "If you're not willing to take a required class in this major and take it seriously, then you should become not my problem change majors. Here's the process for doing that."

ETA: I'm going to be having this conversation with a student in our gateway class this semester. The student is convinced that they don't need the class and communicates that with lots of snark and eye-rolling. Unsurprisingly, this student also demonstrates the least ability to understand and follow directions of anyone in the class.

16
EngrProf42OP•

That's the way it always seems to be. The Kruger-Dunning effect is real!

6
Average650•

After my initial response, I'd just shake my head and shrug.

Our policy is our policy. Take it or leave it.

2
Wandering_Uphill•

By any chance was the issue gen ed classes that have nothing to do with his major? I feel like I'm hearing more grumbling about that lately than anything - and there seems to be an uptick recently. I get it - there were many subjects that I hated as an undergrad, but like everyone else, I sucked it up. I mean it makes me a better Jeopardy player now..... (That's a joke. Sort of.)

ETA: In case I gave the wrong impression, I truly support gen ed and believe that it teaches people to think critically and creatively; as a political science professor I very much wish more people would take more civics / American Government classes.

12
EngrProf42OP•

That's what I expected, but he was complaining about our engineering curriculum. Didn't catch exactly what.

I'm a huge supporter of our liberal arts side and will give a long passionate rant with very little provocation!

19
AceyAceyAcey•

Omg lol! I have engineering students as advisees, and once in a while I get ones who can’t pass MAT 090 (developmental math, beginning arithmetic that starts with the number line and ends with reducing fractions) and still think they can be engineers. Yayfor open access community college!

14
EngrProf42OP•

We FINALLY got a probation program for those students. When you get to college and you need remedial math and English, it is theoretically possible for you to get an engineering degree but the total number of students who have managed it at our school is 0.

The saddest one I had was a kid who promised his grandfather on his deathbed that he would become an engineer. He tried for 3 years before facing reality. He still hadn't completed the required freshman classes.

4
AceyAceyAcey•

TBF I actually have had a number of engineering students start with our lowest developmental math, and then go on to transfer in engineering. It’s the multiple fails of the lowest developmental math that makes me skeptical.

3
Culbrelai•

They wonder why college debt is at an all time high and then you’ll see required BS classes like “The Human Experience”

-14
DeskRider•

I've always considered it humorous that people blame taking Gen-Eds for high student loan debt, but not the "Gee, I got a $14,000 student loan refund that I'm using to buy my new car stereo," nonsense. I've got a student who took out nearly twice what he needed for the year in loans because "my refund is free money."

I can't comment on other schools, but at mine, students are advised to take Gen-Eds first, but often sprinkle them throughout their collegiate career. They also have a rather healthy choice of classes that qualify as Gen-Eds, so what they take is largely up to them. I mean, why apply to a liberal arts institution if you're not interested in engaging - if ever so little - with the liberal arts?

11
AceyAceyAcey•

I’ve had students who “can’t afford” to buy the textbook, but have expensive designer shoes, top of the line latest model cellphones, mohair sweaters, etc.

7
Culbrelai•

Because this is the only place you can learn to be a software engineer or other X job? There are no vocational schools for some things lol.

-5
afterimages2•

Yes and these serve to kill the students passion for the subject they are actually there to study.

-5
SnittingNexttoBorpo•

  1. “Passion” is overrated.

  2. If your “passion” can be killed by having to take Comp I, it wasn’t that serious anyway.

  3. If you think studying anything outside a major is a waste of time, you don’t understand the purpose of a university or what a baccalaureate degree represents, and it’s probably best that you don’t waste your time pursuing one.

14
afterimages2•

Its not that its a waste of time, i learn about various things all the time, except it doesnt cost me thousands of dollars. There's a difference beetween that and a university saying "we are the only way for you obtain what you are after because theres no trade school for x skill you want to aquire, and guess what? Since we have a monopoly on providing this accdedation for x skill we are gonna use you as a cash cow to subsidize jobs that have no actual demand and require that you prop up these departments with your money, not only that but we are going to patronize you the entire time about how "well rounded" we are making you :)". Trust me if i could get what i wanted somewhere else i would.

0
Culbrelai•

Agree wholeheartedly. Not to mention being a cashgrab and repeat of high school.

“Hey we know you learned to write in HS english but lets have you take 3 levels of english as an engineering major just CUZ lol that’ll be $10,000 please!”

-2
afterimages2•

I just find it ironic that most of these professors would lose their mind over a corporation using these unethical buisness practices but of course when it comes to how they get their money its excusable.

0
afterimages2•

I think the gripe students have is that in many ways the gen ed thing is a scam, students are being forced to essentially go through a paywall in order to acess skills they can actually monatize/benefit from. Also their is an opportunity cost imposed on students who have to take these types of gen ed courses as the time spent in these classes could have been spent learning information that is more relevant to their goals or even working at a job with the extra time. Granted the paywall aspect can generally be bypassed by going to community college however the opportunity cost imposed cannot be bypassed.

-17
hausdorffparty•

What? How is gen-ed a scam? If a student can't write coherently, they will fail a 400-level math class. If a student can't interpret any statistics, they won't be able to effectively progress in almost any field of study. If a student doesn't understand history, they will not be able to think effectively about their own civic engagement, much less how their civic engagement relates to their career. IMO almost every gen-ed I can think of has its place, and I'd hate to think about people graduating *college* without that baseline of knowledge.

27
Burner0700•

For what it’s worth in Canada and more so the UK most universities don’t have gen ed requirements and it worked out just fine. I’d say it’s a scam in that it wastes electives and it’s not the responsibility of a university to do what high schools should be doing

1
wokeupabug•

While I agree that high school graduates should, for instance, reliably be functionally literate, the idea that universities should graduate functionally illiterate students on the principle that the high schools didn't do their job... rather seems liking cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

As for whether such a response "work[s] out just fine" -- that depends on whether one thinks it's "just fine" that someone with a university degree on their CV can't be expected to be functionally literate.

2
willbell•

I am from Canada, I think if we had gen-ed requirements we'd be much better off as a country. Of course I have specific political views in mind that people might be more open minded to if they were forced to take a broad set of courses in their first year, but I think it is also simple to see that Canada gives a very low priority to research and heavy promotion of professional degrees.

1
afterimages2•

Yes this is the cliche pitch most people give but this is allegedly supposed to be the function of a highschool education, not only this but the cost benefit for a gen ed education is disturbingly low, most students understand that college is simply a game, they arent trying to retain any of the info, ask any student about what they learned in a gen ed class a year ago and i would be shocked if they retained even 5% of the info. Writing courses are useful imo, every other gen ed course just serves to generally soak up students time, money, and passion the English courses do this aswell but at least the skills are somewhat translatable. Also i hate to say it but students ARE graduating colleges without a baslline level of knowledge which is why bachelor's degrees are becoming less valuable with each year.

-19
hausdorffparty•

So the answer would be to raise standards in geneds, not drop the requirement altogether.... You're not really making an argument for why geneds shouldn't exist. Sure students "should" learn this stuff in HS, but high school is being diluted by people who decided graduation rate is a good metric, so the answer in college is to lower standards?

14
tpedes•

Given that you can't write for shit, you have nothing of value to say about this.

11
afterimages2•

I agree

0
Culbrelai•

Lmao when they fail to defend their revenue stream they use ad hominems

0†
lavache_beadsman•

I admit to losing my temper with one of these once and saying "well, you teach the course, then."

9
EngrProf42OP•

Nice. We've all been there, I think

3
bettyraetangerine•

I have a handy lecture on the difference between a liberal arts degree and a conservatory program or trade school. I Usually imply some blame towards their high school counselor for steering them in the wrong direction... But, deep down I really just want them to know they should’ve paid more attention to the options out there. Maybe be more proactive in understanding those options!

I also do a lot of out reach at local high schools where I discuss specifically different paths towards following this career. I like to try to head the problem off before it starts! I teach in a theater program, so it’s always really fun for me to remind them that they don’t need a degree to do this career and that presumably they are here by choice... and can leave that way if it’s not for them.

4
EngrProf42OP•

Good for you. I remind them it's their life. Not their parents or mine or anyone else's. So they need to pay attention and decide for themselves

1
AntiquePangolin•

Why bother? If he won’t take help, let him fail.

2†
EngrProf42OP•

We are a really small school with the attitude that we do whatever we can for students. My colleague kept redirecting him to the issue but I think finally decided just to let him vent.

6