Source
r/SandersForPresident•
Sember

Is the description of Bernie's political views on nytimes wrong?

I was reading this page https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/elections/bernie-sanders.html and something caught my attention.

Specifically this part:

  1. Sanders calls himself a democratic socialist. What does that mean? Democratic socialism has become a powerful force in American political life, but its definition is up for debate. Generally, it falls somewhere between communism and social democracy, which is common in Europe.

Strictly speaking, democratic socialists do not support capitalism, meaning they want workers to control the means of production. Unlike communists, democratic socialists also believe that socialism should be achieved democratically.

Which is terribly misleading, if you read this article where he explains his views: https://time.com/4121126/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism/

He says:

“When I use the world socialist–and I know some people aren’t comfortable about it—I’m saying that it is imperative,” Sanders said, that we “create a government that works for all and not just the few.”

Democratic socialism, Sanders said, is not tied to any Marxist belief or the abolition of capitalism. “I don’t believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal,” he said.

Should probably be changed. Also terribly written page all around imo, for example "but its definition is up for debate", it's not... as someone from Sweden myself, Social democracy is very well defined and has worked for us, close to a 100 years now.

NYT should do better than this.

Posted Jan 12, 2020, 11:57 PM UTC

3519
galdkirossCA 🐦🔄🐬🎃👻🏳‍🌈🎤🌽🦅🗳️•

They know better but they don't care. The corporate hacks.

16
Reddituser45005🐦•

Voters cannot expect the NYT to provide an informed objective analysis of Bernie, his policies, and his supporters. The NYT supports the neoliberal views, agenda, and power brokers of establishment Democrats.

11
OptimalOstrich🐦•

Honestly I think Bernie actually uses the word democratic socialist wrong. The DSA’s actual platform is as described in that article. What Bernie describes as democratic socialism is more accurately described as social democracy

6
SemberOP•

I agree. I am not even sure why he wouldn't just say he's a Social democrat, there is literally no stigma to that, calling yourself socialist, even in a country like Sweden, get's you no power in the government since it's too extreme even for us.

2
spiroakiMA🙌•

It’s an accepted older term.

2
darklingplarnter•

somewhere between communism and social democracy

That's such a lazy definition. I could easily see them doing this in an opinion piece, but this article is arranged to make it look like a quick fundamental objective overview of him as a candidate and it's just an absolute slander. I stopped reading altogether after Bari Weiss joined their ranks.

6
SemberOP•

What about this gem then:

He seems to really dislike millionaires. But how much does he make?

According to 10 years of tax returns that he released in April, Mr. Sanders and his wife, Jane O’Meara Sanders, reported income that topped $1 million in 2016 and 2017, in part from proceeds from his books.

His income puts him within the top 1 percent of taxpayers, creating some political awkwardness for the senator, who often speaks against “millionaires and billionaires.”

Apparently $1 million is big bucks now for a senator.

2 out of the "3 questions" that are supposedly going to tell us something about him as candidate... the first is terribly misleading about his political views, the other is so disingenuous and cynical... one has to really wonder the motives

5
JohnDee50•

Don't have to wonder the msm despises honesty and the desire to help the working class.

3
fourpinz8TX 🐦🌡️🍁🇺🇲🐬🙌 Yaaas Bernie•

Democratic socialism by the technical definition is just economic socialism with political democracy. To say it’s like Western Europe shows how politically illiterate we are.

4
SemberOP•

I am not sure why people keep using democratic socialism when they seem to mean Social democracy, which is a mixed-market system with welfare policies which is what we do have in most, if not all European countries. What we actually don't have in Europe is socialist economies.

4
fourpinz8TX 🐦🌡️🍁🇺🇲🐬🙌 Yaaas Bernie•

Exactly. I think Bernie uses the term ‘democratic socialist’ to describe himself is because , there was a time when Bernie was younger and he actually was for a post-capitalist society

5
sidewiththeseedsGlobal Supporter 🎖️ ✋•

Well that is the book definition of democratic socialism. What Bernie says in his speeches is a completely different thing. A good way to put it is to say he is a democratic socialist indeed, because of the structural flaws he identifies in capitalism, but his platform is more like classic social democracy.

2
nandacast🐦 🎂 🐬 🎃 🎤•

Yeah I wrote an article condemning the NYT for this. It's because S. Ember is a regular anti-Bernie correspondent. She's falsely equating socialism to communism. In actuality, communism falls closer to libertarianism than to socialism or democratic socialism.

Edit: link

https://honorabowen.wordpress.com/2019/09/11/sydney-ember-of-the-new-york-times-needs-to-stop-misleading-the-public-by-conflating-socialism-with-communism/

2
[deleted]•

NYT is one of the Final Bosses.

2
Bruh2013•

Google it

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
nandacast🐦 🎂 🐬 🎃 🎤•

Democratic socialism, not social democracy

1
silvertui•

Bernie sites Scandinavian countries as examples of democratic socialism. In European lexicon they are social democratic. Basically I think this is pretty good evidence for viewing Bernies democratic socialism as a synonym for social democracy because the latter is a term that doesn't translate well in to American lexicon.

It's also worth noting that the center left party in France (which is not really that left) call its self the "socialist party" same in Spain and other European countries. This shows how fluid and indeed mainstream captialist the term can be.

​

In short yes, the times is being deliberately misleading.

1
IvoryTowerCapitalist•

All socialists support social democratic policies to improve the working class. If you look at any strong social democratic country, they had strong socialist movements.

It seems like we have this debate very week on this subreddit. And it comes down to those who claim to be "social democrats" not understanding what it means. Traditionally socialists have always called themselves social democrats such as Vladimir Lenin, Karl Marx, and Rosa Luxembourg. It just meant socialists participating in the political process.

You never get social democratic policies without a socialist movement against capitalism. And the capitalists fight against those social democratic policies tooth and nail. That's just a fact. Why is this the case? Because socialists understand the necessity of organizing the working class as part of a broader movement against capitalists where as liberal "social democrats" tend to just be technocrats advocating policies within the limitations of the status quo.

It's factually wrong to say that Bernie wasn't influenced by Marxism. Bernie was heavily influenced by Eugenne Debbs and what got him into socialism the first place. Eugenne Debbs is one of the most popular marxists /socialists in American history. I would say that policy wise he is a social democrat. But his understanding of class conflict and the necessity of organizing the working class is very much socialist.

There are a ton of self-proclaimed "social democrats" who have no concept of class conflict or organizing the working class.

1
TystrosGlobal Supporter - End Endless Wars•

The NYT description of the word is not wrong. And I actually believe Bernie is a real democratic socialist in the meaning of the word as NYT explains it - but his current platform he runs on is more like social democracy. Bernie knows that with a pure democratic socialism platform he can't win, but he probably believes in it. I think that's a good approach.

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