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Ergo Proxy Rewatch - Episode 20 Discussion

Rewatch

###Episode Twenty - "Sacred Eye of the Void / Goodbye Vincent"

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2016 Rewatch - Episode Twenty Discussion

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Reminder on spoiler rules

Spoiler tag format: [Ergo Proxy](/s "spoilers go here")

Spoiler tags must be used for any discussion of events or information past the current episode, no matter how small. Please do not hint or "laughs in rewatcher" at the first timers. A better alternative is to save it and mention it in your post later on when its relevant! Please let them experience the show as naturally as possible and don't ruin their experience .

If you're on reddit redesign: You have to use the markdown editor or switch to old reddit for the spoiler tag format to work correctly, new reddit breaks it for some reason.

Comment(s) of the day

  • u/NomranaEst and the great discussion we had about the beauty of the fact that Pino dreams and what it means for her development

Link to post

It's probably best that he reached out to Pino, as her childish wonderment and earnest honesty is enough to convince Vincent to skip Smile Land as a destination. However, the biggest point in this episode is that Pino dreams. While she's charging, completely unaware of the world, she continues her own adventures within her mind. Even if she is a machine, she still maintains that she now has a soul. This does extend to her interrogation and interaction within Smile Land, as it's noted that her smile is the most genuine that many have seen.

  • u/SomeGuyYeahman again for more unique and well thought out answers to the questions for the day that again addresses some interesting themes and touches on the world at large and what this episode reveals about it.

Link to post

(Regarding if humans would also be discarded) I've been leaning toward "no", but there's a fascinating aspect of this episode that seems to indicate the opposite - the way it ends. When Will B. Good tries to get the pendants from Pino, she ends up saved because Al, Pull and the other AutoReivs notice that Pino's smiles are natural while his are fake, so they pull him out of the screen and beat him up. Will B. Good isn't the best source of smiles anymore, so he ends up deposed - so this principle that anything that doesn't make people happy is removed doesn't just extend to people, it extends to the Proxy himself, the creator of Smileland!

Questions for the day

Thanks to u/AmeteurElitist for helping me with this section.

  1. Who do you think Swan was?

  2. Why do you think Re-l asked for Vincent's pendant at the end?

  3. What do you think caused Vincent to have this dream now?

Posted Jan 29, 2020, 10:02 PM UTC · edited

38144
Raiking02https://myanimelist.net/profile/SupremeLord•

Oh thank God it was all just a dream!

12
Matuhghttps://anilist.co/user/Matuhg/•

I went from thinking it was all another dream at the start, to doubting it because it went on so long, to of course realizing it was a dream again at the end. I think I'll just assume nothing is real now.

The notes I took

5
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Those beautiful moments when a single commentface can just sum up your thoughts on the entire episode

2
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

###Rewatcher - Dub

This is the bookstore all over again. Too much to focus on and not nearly enough space or time to cover it all.

Focus: Reality.

If being able to perceive something is what makes it exist for you, what happens when you can't trust your own senses? If you don't even recognize your own eyes in the mirror, how can you trust the world around you is what you perceive it as?

The first three shots immediately show us the focus for this episode: Re-l's existance, the pendant and Vincent's perception.

This entire episode is filled with questioning and uncertainty. We take up Vincent's view point and it changes the way everything is seen. For better or worse, this is an episode determined to ask questions not but provide many answers, for the first time leaving most of it up to the audiences interpretation rather than attempting to provide clean answers. It's a more traditional sort of mind scape, but the unique perspective it takes to multiple personalities and how it ties into the episode means the questions it asks are very interesting.

Unlike the bookstore which was Vincent being forced to accept who he was in his own mind, outside of how society sees him, this is much the inverse, forcing Vincent to take a hard look at how easily twisted his view of the world is and how that affects those around him. It covers a lot of the themes of the bookstore episode, including the role of memory in forming identity and purpose, but through the look of a changed Vincent.

"Once pulled to the surface, all you required was someones conscious acknowledgement"

Through the show Pino has been a stabilizing factor in what we understand as the real world. She didn't appear in the bookstore, the doppelganger failed to imitate her, she was around for the gameshow, and in Smileland she was the only element outside of the Proxy's control. Our first look at her in this episode leaves her feeling pretty genuine. Angry for the first time over Re-l's betrayal, its a behavior that we could imagine from Pino. Similarly, her working to free Ergo Proxy at the end seems like something she would do, but her willingness to kill Re-l without questioning it is a contradiction to what we have seen of her so far, we know that Pino has a solid understanding death, sadness and Vincent's feelings towards Re-l. The Pino we see through Vincent's eyes is less real than the one we get through his version of Re-l.

Does that suggest he knows Re-l and Pino better than he knows himself? That when he's looking through his own eyes, he doesn't trust what he knows about the world or the people around him? Or is it bigger than that, is this Pino merely a construction Swan designed to manipulate Vincent more than something he has dreamed up himself?

"Seeing myself through her eyes, is the me in here and me out there the same?"

Swan is an enigma. The mental manifestation of a Proxy, but which Proxy? If we track when her necklace shines, it reveals a great deal about her influence and goals. The first time is when Re-l fails to recognize her, the glint drawing your focus to the chain as if shining a light on her identity as a Proxy. Second, when Re-l apologizes for whining, like Vincent does, as it is Vincent is who she is interested in and this catches her attention. Third, once she brings his "identity" to the surface, and comes with the statement "It's the only way I knew how to get access to you". The last is when she asks Vincent to kill Re-l, her intentions finally revealed and she is able to push him as she wanted.

Swan's motivations appear to focus on these events: Unleashing Ergo Proxy to kill Re-l. But why? Is it because Re-l's a stabilizing factor on him? He trusts that she will kill him if he gets out of hand, but he also uses her as a way to center his own mind and control Ergo Proxy. Is Swan a manifestation of Ergo himself, wanting to undermine Vincent in order to be free? Is she a separate Proxy, seeking to have Vincent defeat himself rather than relying on an external weakness like Will B Good? Or is she merely a dream fragment of Monad caused by his fractured memories, carrying the other pendant and complaining about "other women"?

"You've lost sight of your own sense of self, that's why you'll never find a place to belong"

This time, Vincent uses his pedant as his anchor to reality, fitting for the shape that it has. It may be his anchor, but it was also meant to be the key to unlocking his memories, and though that has failed he still is attached to it, finding its presence reassuring after Re-l returned it to him. But we know there are two pendants now, a second having been found on Amnesia, and depending on your take on who Swan is, that may be a third or perhaps that is a mental representation of the second one. Even if he won't take off his own, does the second pendant complicate how Vincent perceives it? Re-l's question at the end of the episode seems designed to provoke this in the audience: Would he have given it to her if not for this dream? Would he still knowing that it might change how they see each other and themselves?

Regardless of the answer, Re-l stands with him inside his circle and says the famous line: "I think, therefore you are." Even if he doesn't know himself, she can see him for who he is and that's something he can lean on. Pino may be the audience's anchor, but Re-l is still Vincents after all this time.

Various other thoughts:

  • Spoilers

  • I do have my own take on all of these questions, but honestly I find them more interesting without having hard facts. It's perhaps a poorly placed episode as I'm sure that some people will find it frustrating that we've had two "dream" sequences in a row (I don't technically count yesterday as a dream more than a mental invasion) while Romdo is waiting for our characters to arrive so the plot continues but it works off the back of the last one regarding who has possession of the pendants, and also does give us a chance to catch up on Vincent's perception of Ergo Proxy which hasn't been addressed in a long time.

  • Fun detail: When Re-l is at the dinner with Swan and Daedalus she has two drinks, one on each side of the table, for each hand and presumably each identity. Similarly note the use of another triangle to represent instability with Re-l being the tipping point.

  • Another one of the most memorable shots in the show for me, Ergo in his full Proxy form chained where Monad once was, watching everything around him like a predator. But on rewatch I think this is my new favourite of the episode

  • I thought that the steak was a carrot for far longer than I should have before my brain fixed itself

  • Don't know if it means anything, but an interesting detail in the episode is that we don't see a single AutoReiv in the city aside from Kristeva in the council and Pino.

  • Spoilers again

  • More spoilers spoiler image

  • I flat out did not have time to properly check, but it would be interesting to go back through the episode and check to see if who Re-l is framed with in each scene reflects something about Vincent's mind at the time, such as with Raul in the council as they are both betrayers in this dream, or how she's usually framed with Daedalus instead of him at dinner? There was also a lot of shots around Re-l being isolated in large spaces while Vincent was framed cramped and close

  • Anyone else think of the Hannibal TV series when Re-l kept breaking the coffee mug and then damaging herself when she attempted to pick it up again?

  • Found this comment from the 2016 rewatch which is worth a read today for those more interested in the philosophical aspect of the multiple personality side of the episode.

  • Oh and thanks to enotita who's Re-l image I had to steal because apparently I deleted my own.

  • Shinsen-Subs endcards: One and Two though I'm not entirely sure how that second one is related unless its just a general thematic link u/SomeGuyYeahman

9
RockoDynehttps://myanimelist.net/profile/RockoDyne•

Similarly note the use of another triangle to represent instability

The engineer in me is having trouble on that one... actually the occultist in me is too. Triangles are almost always a symbol of balance and stability. Triangles are three separate powers that remain in even contention with each other.It's how we get checks and balances.

Even if we accept that it's about instability, Daedalus and Swan aren't the forces in opposition.

3
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Its a distinction between how they're drawn. Symbolically a triangle with its base down is stable and focused as you said, but point down they show instability and tension, sometimes aggression.

1
RockoDynehttps://myanimelist.net/profile/RockoDyne•

That's not actually that relevant, and point down has nothing to do with aggression.

1
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Its established art theory though? Most shapes have two meanings depending on how they're used in context.

1
Quiddity131http://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131•

Anyone else think of the Hannibal TV series when Re-l kept breaking the coffee mug and then damaging herself when she attempted to pick it up again?

Hannibal is one of the greatest TV shows ever made and I was a super obsessed fan about it. I can't believe I didn't think of this myself. This episode made me think a lot about another TV show (more details in my top level comment).

2
Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor•

I always wanted to watch Hannibal because the premise interested me and I loved Mads Mikkelsen on Jagten and Death Stranding, I'm wondering though, since it got cancelled, does it end on a satisfying tone?

3
Quiddity131http://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131•

Yes, it ends satisfactorily. They structured each season's ending to be relatively close ended in case the show got cancelled, so theoretically you could look at each season finale as a series finale. While season 3's final episode wasn't as strong as season 2's, which may be the best episode of TV ever for me, it was quite good and I was satisfied with it.

Mikkelsen is so perfect as Hannibal, even better than Anthony Hopkins, as hard to believe as that is.

2
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

as strong as season 2's, which may be the best episode of TV ever for me

I always hesitate to say stuff like that because I know I suck at recalling episodes on command but in this case I have to agree that it's right up there for being one of the best watch experiences I've had in live action

2
Vaadwaur•

does it end on a satisfying tone?

Deeply. A solid ending and they knew it might be the series finale so they prepared for that.

1
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

I loved the first season, thought the second season was a bloody masterpiece, but couldn't finish the third season.

This episode did send me looking though to see if that sort of sequence had its origins in something else but other than the original Hannibal book I couldn't find anything

3
Quiddity131http://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131•

The third season was fairly strong in comparison to other shows, but couldn't live up to how insanely perfect the first 2 seasons were for me.

I've read all the books sans the prequel one (which was a cash grab if I remember right) and don't recall the teacup coming up; but then its been a few years since then.

2
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

From what I remember the prequel book was actually movie producer interference. They basically went to him and went "If you don't write an origin story, we will" so out of terror that someone else would make one up that wouldn't fit at all, he wrote the book so at least he'd have control over it

Despite that it's a decent read. Its a lot more typical than the others and lacks some of the psychological stuff of the others, but its faithful to the character and doesn't play the sympathy card which is good. Teacup stuff was in the last book, Hannibal

3
Vaadwaur•

I loved the first season, thought the second season was a bloody masterpiece, but couldn't finish the third season.

Funny how EP is giving me fits about pretentiousness and yet I lived on Hannibal S3, isn't it? I guess we all have our levels.

1
aj_bnhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/MisterEthical311•

Found this comment from the 2016 rewatch which is worth a read today for those more interested in the philosophical aspect of the multiple personality side of the episode.

Thanks for this, it was a great read.

1
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Yeah I haven't always had time to check the threads before posting so I'm sure there's been others along the way, but I was really interested in what people thought about this episode

1
SomeGuyYeahmanhttps://anilist.co/user/itssomeguy•

I see this was a very productive episode for you :) Great writeup!

Another one of the most memorable shots in the show for me, Ergo in his full Proxy form chained where Monad once was, watching everything around him like a predator.

I really really liked that shot as well. The way he leans on his knee in that scene but still looms menacingly, it's just so cool

That second endcard is, uh, interesting.

filled with many situations and themes common in Dick's work, such as (...) a house that devours people to survive and a world where people are showered with locusts for telling a lie.

D-does he do that a lot?

That said, even the wikipedia page for that story claims this episode is based on it (albeit without sourcing). The scenario is very similar (someone trapped in someone else's subconscious, being faced with various thought-up realities) and the cover on that page also looks remarkably similar to the shot of Re-l's eye here.

Alternatively, it might just be that one of the people involved in production said at some point that it was inspired. Who knows, lol

1
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

I see this was a very productive episode for you :) Great writeup!

Brain was working today

Glad you liked it though. I wasn't sure how it was going to come across because I know a couple of people have been looking at my post for answers and this one basically just complicated everything even more but it was fun to write

That said, even the wikipedia page for that story

I notice that's been included on the page since at least 2011 though, even without a source, which makes me wonder if its one of those impossible to prove or disprove sorts of things

1
SomeGuyYeahmanhttps://anilist.co/user/itssomeguy•

Brain was working today

Unlike mine

Equivalent exchange.

I do have special respect for write-ups that manage to be on the lucid and comprehensible side, but complicated ones are fun in their own way.

I notice that's been included on the page since at least 2011 though, even without a source, which makes me wonder if its one of those impossible to prove or disprove sorts of things

I imagine it is. Unless we find another source, which offhand doesn't really seem likely (other stuff I can find is just taking from the wikipedia page).

Oh well.

1
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Equivalent exchange.

Well, you had it for two days, so I'm keeping it for tomorrow as well

1
Koolsman•

First Timer!

Wait, so there was a point to this episode right? Ok, that sounded way meaner then it should’ve but I felt like this episode was trying to confuse the viewer and while it did, for the most part, I just felt empty by the end. I just feel like with four episodes left we would’ve gotten on with the show by this point and gotten back to Rondeau and just be about them getting back in or whatever. Now we have another episode where the main character is basically having a mental battle with another proxy and didn’t we just do this last episode except the last one was a little bit more fun? Not to say this episode didn’t have great moments but I feel like as a one-off episode it just didn’t work for me.

In terms of what stuff worked, I did like the overall idea of figuring out this world was much faker was less obvious and almost made me believe that they have already gotten back to Rondeau. Plus, there were some moments that made me feel uneasy like with Daedalus basically coddling Re-L and calling her “Sis” almost made me gag but that’s because of recent events.

For now, I would say that certain moments of the show have been pretentious but this episode definitely fits the bill of a little bit up it’s own ass of just doing a whole episode inside a dream of something like that. It just didn’t work as well as the last episode.

Who do you think Swan was?

A proxy that really liked pendents.

Why do you think Re-l asked for Vincent's pendant at the end?

Maybe because that's the key to this whole mystery?

What do you think caused Vincent to have this dream now?

Because Vince was getting closer to Romdeau and is thinking of other stuff.

6
TheKujohttps://myanimelist.net/profile/Kujo419•

I just feel like with four episodes left we would’ve gotten on with the show by this point and gotten back to Rondeau and just be about them getting back in or whatever.

I feel the same way as a first timer. I thought we were back on the main storyline after we visited Mosk but instead we're still fighting random Proxies in one-off episodes.

5
Quiddity131http://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131•

Wait, so there was a point to this episode right? Ok, that sounded way meaner then it should’ve but I felt like this episode was trying to confuse the viewer and while it did, for the most part, I just felt empty by the end. I just feel like with four episodes left we would’ve gotten on with the show by this point and gotten back to Rondeau and just be about them getting back in or whatever. Now we have another episode where the main character is basically having a mental battle with another proxy and didn’t we just do this last episode except the last one was a little bit more fun? Not to say this episode didn’t have great moments but I feel like as a one-off episode it just didn’t work for me.

This is a perfectly reasonable take to have. I enjoyed the episode, but I do highly question the decision to place it this close to the end and immediately after another episode that was also revealed to be a dream.

I get that we the audience are expecting them to go back to Rondeau, so having this surprise episode where we think they are there but they aren't is going to be easier to trick us by with putting it here, but we're getting so close to the end, this may completely blow up in their face.

4
Vaadwaur•

Wait, so there was a point to this episode right? Ok, that sounded way meaner then it should’ve but I felt like this episode was trying to confuse the viewer and while it did, for the most part, I just felt empty by the end.

As a rewatcher I get what it tried to convey but again we it didn't need to be the whole episode. I think a 10 minutes sequence would've worked fine.

gotten back to Rondeau and just be about them getting back in or whatever.

I love that it seems like none of us spell the city the same way.

For now, I would say that certain moments of the show have been pretentious but this episode definitely fits the bill of a little bit up it’s own ass of just doing a whole episode inside a dream of something like that. It just didn’t work as well as the last episode.

Yup, definitely a bit that as I compare it to Twin Peaks. The other issue is that Pino can carry an episode and Vince can't. It appears that combining Vince and Re-l does not carry an ep either.

3
Koolsman•

I love that it seems like none of us spell the city the same way.

I think that was due to my grammerly being obnoxious.

The other issue is that Pino can carry an episode and Vince can't. It appears that combining Vince and Re-l does not carry an ep either.

Pino can carry everything.

3
Vaadwaur•

Pino can carry everything.

She carries a tune, she carries your ammo, she carries a weak plot device by the Gods she is basically construction equipment at this point.

4
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Even though I love the episode, even I have to question its placement at times. On a rewatch it works a lot better knowing how its themes tie in but for a first timer I can totally get how it feels like just dragging it out

3
fonzinator99https://myanimelist.net/profile/fonzinator99•

Re-First-Timer - Everybody gets Multiple Personalities!

  • I guess it only makes sense that our heroes would wake up in Romdeau to begin this episode. Although this might be the first time their "Fast Travel" ability has actually taken them to their destination. But it also went and put Vincent in Re-L's body... Now we know what happens when you teleport to the same place as someone else?

  • Introducing a new/old character is some clever sleight of hand to keep us from thinking about the fact that Daedalus has another Re-L somewhere right now. **anxiety increases**

  • Damn, poor Pino. I'm glad she's okay, but it sucks that she can't do anything to help.

  • Okay, "Fast Travel" is definitely the worst broken superpower.

Ability - Fast Travel: Black out and awaken at your desired* location via conventional means! Call an uber, steal a bike, rob a liquor store for bus fare, you'll get...somewhere.

^^^^*possibly

  • Madness abounds. Because everything's more fun when your characters are multiple characters.

  • Off-key Re-L for the sake of having a bad picture of her. lol

  • I... What even... Huh? Swan was a Proxy? I'm not sure what's real here anymore, nice work EP.

  • AHHHHH!

No more Dream Proxies!

QotD

  1. Just another Proxy looking for a way to forge a bond with someone.

2 & 3. My answer to both of these questions is "uncertainty regarding the other." Re-L asks for the Pendant because she thinks it will provide some amount of leverage over Vincent, while Vincent has a dream of betrayal because he's anxious that their return to Romdeau will play out just as we saw.

6
Vaadwaur•

I... What even... Huh?

Swan was a Proxy? I'm not sure what's real here anymore, nice work EP.

AHHHHH!

No more

Dream Proxies!

And that's the bad part of the episode, and to a certain degree, this whole style of storytelling: By constantly attacking what can be real it is often easier to assume nothing is real. And this story suffers for that since there is an actual world here.

1
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Although this might be the first time their "Fast Travel" ability has actually taken them to their destination

I was wondering if someone was going to comment on that and the fact that Swan relates lost time to having a broken identity

Now we know what happens when you teleport to the same place as someone else?

That moment when Ergo Proxy ends up getting the plot of a Star Trek episode

Damn, poor Pino. I'm glad she's okay

SHE WAS CRYING! That's not okay! It hurt me and I never want to hear it again.

1
punching_spaghettihttps://myanimelist.net/profile/punch_spaghetti•

So, this is definitely another dream sequence. Raul’s not being a jackass with the council.

"I didn’t recognize you without your lab coat." Not everyone wears the same clothes every day, Re-l!

Which makes me wonder: she wears the same clothes, but she's picky about cleanliness, so she probably washed her clothes a lot during the trip, or, rather, had Vincent wash them for her. This leads to the obvious question: did he wash her underpants? How awkward was that? Did Pino ask her pointed questions, like "why do you like Re-l's underpants so much, Vince?" Did this make Re-l embarrassed/angry, and final get her to do her own chores?

"Are you telling me Vincent Law is inside of me?" Only in his dreams.

At the end, Re-l says "it’s my turn." I guess we’re getting an episode of Re-l dreaming next? I’m not looking forward to it if we do get one. I felt like Pino’s dream was interesting visually and had a lot of thematic content involving the existence of AutoReivs and fate as a concept. This one felt heavy-handed and pointless. Is there anything that happened today that will color how we perceive things later on? I wonder if the episode was written by the same person who wrote the bookstore episode. Both have the same feeling of being overly complicated with levels upon levels of abstraction (time in the bookstore, dreams here).

Questions:

  1. Swan is an enigma to me. Everyone else was someone Vincent had interacted with at some point prior in the show. Could she be a remnant of his lost memories?

  2. I think there's two things possibly going on here: one, Re-l has actually grown to care for Vincent in some way, and she understands that they might get separated once they reach Rondo. It's a small moment of Re-l being sentimental. Two, Re-l wants something she can show the council to claim legitimacy for her escapades without turning in Vincent. "That Proxy? No, I couldn't catch him, but he did leave behind this thingie." That assumes Re-l's plan isn't to grab whoever they see first, stick her shotgun in their back, and start barking orders.

  3. Considering the show, it's probably a Proxy.

6
Vaadwaur•

This one felt heavy-handed and pointless. Is there anything that happened today that will color how we perceive things later on?

So the one relevant takeaway, to me, is we learn that what Vince really wants/wanted was to live a normal life as a high end employee. Nothing crazy or anything. Whether or not you find that relevant will be up to you.

I wonder if the episode was written by the same person who wrote the bookstore episode. Both have the same feeling of being overly complicated with levels upon levels of abstraction (time in the bookstore, dreams here).

Yeah...this show seems to not have had an editor at times. Someone should've shuffled the episodes better.

2
RockoDynehttps://myanimelist.net/profile/RockoDyne•

So the one relevant takeaway, to me, is we learn that what Vince really wants/wanted was to live a normal life as a high end employee. Nothing crazy or anything. Whether or not you find that relevant will be up to you.

It hit me how weird it is that we are this far into the show, and we still treat Vince like he's not an artificial personality. We got this far and he's still that same immigrant who was just trying to get by.

2
Vaadwaur•

Yeah that is odd as having your memories taken away would obviously alter you heavily. Maybe we don't like our main characters to basically be fake?

1
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

"I didn’t recognize you without your lab coat." Not everyone wears the same clothes every day, Re-l!

She's really stuck in that outfit now that she doesn't have Iggy to do the shopping for her

did he wash her underpants? How awkward was that? Did Pino ask her pointed questions, like "why do you like Re-l's underpants so much, Vince?"

Oh the things that people think of during rewatches.

"Are you telling me Vincent Law is inside of me?" Only in his dreams.

I laughed so much between those two comments that now I hurt

I wonder if the episode was written by the same person who wrote the bookstore episode.

Dai Sato wrote the bookstore directly, while this was written by Yuuko Kawabe who also did 6 (one of the commune ones, I forget which) , 9 (Kazkis), 12-14 (Iggy + ophelia) and 17 (cave)

2
punching_spaghettihttps://myanimelist.net/profile/punch_spaghetti•

So the density of some of these episodes is a choice from the top. I see how it works as a general principle for the show (the number plotlines at work, the number of questions and answers we've gotten at time, etc) but a few episodes have made my head hurt.

1
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Aside from being given a rough outline for the first few episodes, Dai Sato and his team basically had free reign over the entire series to do whatever they wanted, so it was definitely a conscious choice to make the episodes what they were. Whether or not it works for people has always been very up in the air though

1
Matuhghttps://anilist.co/user/Matuhg/•

This leads to the obvious question: did he wash her underpants?

Asking the really important questions.

At the end, Re-l says "it’s my turn." I guess we’re getting an episode of Re-l dreaming next?

Urgh, I thought she just meant it was her turn to take the wheel, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the show telling us another dream sequence is coming up. I will be sure to doubt everything I see next episode.

It definitely seems like Re-l does care for Vincent now, though not in the same way he does to her. Your answers for Q2 do make me wonder what the plan is once they get to Romdo.

2
punching_spaghettihttps://myanimelist.net/profile/punch_spaghetti•

I think that's what her statement means within the show, but I this show has things meaning multiple things at times, so I wouldn't put it past them to prime us for another dream episode.

Or, they're priming us for a dream episode because they want us to think tomorrow is a dream but it's actually not.

2
enotitahttps://myanimelist.net/profile/Azizdy•

First Timer - Dub

  • The atmosphere in the first minutes of this episode gives me so much chills.

  • Vincent seems to be in some sort of hospital, and Re-I looks to be there too under the care of Daedalus. Vincent somehow is able to see her POV, and she isn't looking so hot, probably a bit vegetative. I wonder what how they found themselves in this.

  • They finally made it back to the dome apparently. And the meeting between Re-I and the Regent was as unpleasant as thought it would be. At least slightly. And Raul is there too!

  • Vincent's mind is stuck in Re-I's? That can lead to some interesting things. I don't think Re-I should know, or else it wouldn't be pretty.

  • Who is that pretty looking woman? Swan? That's a lovely name.

  • "My awareness just skips", sleeping in a nutshell...

  • If Vincent is in Re-I's mind, where the heck is Vincent himself? And what happened to Pino?

  • Oh wow, Swan is able to observe Re-I's behavior to the point of noticing some minor but significant details. Must be Vincent's slight influence on her consciousness.

  • Its Pino! And oh god...shes upset...HOW COULD YOU MAKE HER CRY RE-I!!!!!???

  • That does raise the question of what Pino means by helping Vincent...

  • Holy...they finally managed to catch him, poor Vincent...

  • So it was Re-I whose the reason Vincent that way. That's an interesting story I'd like to here.

  • It must feel really weird and complicated for Vincent to literally look at himself through the eyes of Re-I.

  • Well, Swan is one smart lady, awakening the Vincent within Re-I to finally get in touch with him...that was one weird sentence I just said....

  • So due to Re-I "betraying" Vincent, her personality disorder developed, and led to the creation of a personality that sort of acts a ghost haunting her, this being the Vincent we've been following. My god is that a fascinating idea to explore in this episode.

  • So this Vincent isn't actually Vincent, I just got a mind fuck thinking about that.

  • Disturbing indeed Re-I, disturbing indeed.

  • Oh so he does have influence on her actions.

  • I'm getting some Freaky Friday vibes with the switching of personalities.

  • Vincent taking over Re-I's body, that's both a good and bad thing to happen tbh.

  • Oh dear, showing everything about him to Re-I to free himself from her subconsciousness. That'll be awkward.

  • What the heck? Vincent as a suave gentleman?

  • AND HE'S GOING ON A DATE WITH RE-I??

  • AND DAEDALUS IS RE-I'S BROTHER???

  • An entire week already passed?

  • Oh shit, Vincent's escaped thanks to Pino from the sound of things.

  • Oh, and now Re-I is his fiance, what the heck, now my brain is scattered everywhere.

  • And now he has to kill Re-I in the fantasy world to free Re-I from him, so that's where the meaning of Goodbye Vincent comes from.

  • Oh god Pino is so innocent in going along with his thoughts.

  • What the heck, so Swan was a proxy the whole time? Damn this show and its mindfuckery.

  • Back to reality now, where the journey still continues...

  • I loved that little moment between Re-I and Vincent. They've really grown to be accustomed to one another and are alot more closer now. Those two have come a real long way huh.

Great episode. Heavy on its psychological aspect and keeps you guessing along the way at every moment possible while also enhancing its themes of perception and reality. It was sad knowing that Swan was a proxy since I did like her character, but she may have been one of the most effective antagonists yet. This episode also shows how nice the development in Re-I and Vincent's relationship has been.

Its good to know that no one is saying "goodbye" to anyone. But it unfortunately makes me think when that time will come...

6
punching_spaghettihttps://myanimelist.net/profile/punch_spaghetti•

I loved that little moment between Re-I and Vincent. They've really grown to be accustomed to one another and are alot more closer now.

Agreed. They would not have been that relaxed with each other just a few episodes ago.

4
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

"My awareness just skips", sleeping in a nutshell...

Especially when you sleep like shit and it feels like you're just blacking out parts of your night instead

My god is that a fascinating idea to explore in this episode.

One of the more unusual takes of a multiple personality I've seen, following a single personality through events without branching out into other view points. So appropriate for the show as well

What the heck? Vincent as a suave gentleman?

That still weirds me out a lot. It's just so.... wrong. He's such a doofy guy and Raul's so refined at the start of the show and swapping them feels weird

3
Shinkopeshonhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/Diable-Jambe•

First Timer

Can this show stop fucking with my head ... for one second?

Ergo Proxy has not been working well as a study break and pre-bedtime habit so far

6
NoviSunhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun•

Can this show stop fucking with my head ... for one second?

lol, I don't think that's possible. Sorry

2
Vaadwaur•

Can this show stop fucking with my head ... for one second?

The law requires that Ergo Proxy say no.

Ergo Proxy has not been working well as a study break and pre-bedtime habit so far

Interesting difference. I can sleep to this. But as a study break yeah this would be horrid.

2
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Ergo Proxy has not been working well as a study break and pre-bedtime habit so far

Why would you even try that after the first few episodes? It's only gotten worse since then at being a "wind down" sort of watch

1
Shinkopeshonhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/Diable-Jambe•

Lol I'd already started this show a month ago and when the rewatch came along, I thought I'd join since I wasn't gonna be able to binge it anyway. I didn't think I'd be under so much stress this month though.

Oh well, as long as Pino shows up, it's not so bad.

1
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

You need to find something cute and happy or silly instead to watch in parallel if you have time. I don't think I could make Ergo Proxy my bedtime show... well I say that but I'm usually writing my post until I go to sleep anyway

1
Shinkopeshonhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/Diable-Jambe•

I'm watching a few seasonals as well (including the Re:Zero rewatch because I like to suffer) and you just made me realize that with the exception of Heya Camp, there's no fluffy CGDCT show in my schedule, even though I probably need it now more than ever.

1
TheKujohttps://myanimelist.net/profile/Kujo419•

First Timer

Me before the episode: I won't be able to watch the episode until later today, but maybe I can join the late comment crew and make some intelligent replies!

Me during the episode:

Me after the episode:

So it was all a dream huh? That's cool I guess, but having two dream episodes in a row seems rather lazy. I didn't catch on that it was a dream until pretty late though so they definitely got me.

Who do you think Swan was?

The Incest Proxy. Who TF can think Re-L and Daedalus are siblings? Icky. (If they actually turn out to be siblings I'm going to flip a table.)

Why do you think Re-l asked for Vincent's pendant at the end?

She read the script and knew it would freak Vincent out if she asked at that exact time.

What do you think caused Vincent to have this dream now?

They flew too close to the Incest Proxy while they were on the ship. I don't know if I mentioned this during the relevant episode thread, but I think that's how they encountered the Game Show Proxy too.

Ongoing Mysteries (new thoughts are bolded). I also added my predictions to lay out how I think everything will go. (tagging u/Nazenn in case you want to read them):

  • What are the Proxies and what is their goal? Proxies were created as part of the Proxy Project to rebuild life. 300 of them were created. At this point, we've seen quite a variety of Proxy powers and not all of them are violent. Prediction
  • Who exactly is Vincent and why are the Proxies chasing him? Vincent is Ergo Proxy, the Agent of Death.  Prediction
  • Why is Re-L getting involved in all this? Is she really just an investigator or does she have some other connection to this case? Re-L feels a strange pull towards Vincent. Prediction
  • What's the Council's overall goal? The council apparently feels a deep despair over something. Maybe they know that humanity can no longer be saved no matter what? Prediction
  • What's Raul's overall goal? Raul is somehow still alive after last episode. I get the feeling that the council no longer sees him as a threat. I wonder what his plan is now that he's blown up Mosk. Prediction
  • What happened to the Boomerang ship? Prediction
  • What's up with those cave people? They looked like humans that had devolved into mole-people. I don't think enough time has passed for that to be a natural evolution though. Prediction
  • Why is Daedalus so creepy? Prediction
6
NoviSunhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun•

Me during the episode:

I pretty much agree with your sentiments about how you felt during the episode. It was a pretty wild ride.

The Incest Proxy... They flew too close to the Incest Proxy

Beware!The Incest Proxy

3
Vaadwaur•

The Incest Proxy. Who TF can think Re-L and Daedalus are siblings? Icky. (If they actually turn out to be siblings I'm going to flip a table.)

While hilarious, I don't even know what constitutes a sibling in a society where people are created to order from ancient templates.

So it was all a dream huh? That's cool I guess, but having two dream episodes in a row seems rather lazy.

Frankly, EP likes to be too "clever" for its own good. I like this dream ep far more than the other three but its placement is terrible and being the last of them means the impact is reduced.

@predictions That is surprisingly coherent as a plan. Good work.

Why is Daedalus so creepy?

As I said, he is what happens when you give an incel management powers and a cloner. We don't want to think about how many Re-ls are stashed away in his love nest. Nor where the ones that got too mouthy wound up.

2
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Thanks for the tag. For obvious reasons while I can't comment, I enjoyed reading all the predictions

2
Matuhghttps://anilist.co/user/Matuhg/•

First Timer

Oof, ouch, my brain. At this point I feel like we're going to get to the end of the show and have Vince snap back to awareness eating his Awakening Alpha-Bits while talking to Dorothy and learn this whole thing was just a Proxy fight between Monad and Ergo or something.

Another dream, whether it's a "normal" dream or something Proxy related, or who knows what else. Whoever Swan represented was trying to get Vince to kill Re-l. This show really likes making you question whether every scene/sequence/episode is real.

Who do you think Swan was?

I'm currently leaning towards Monad in some way or another. Mostly due to the comment about "other women" at the end. If Monad is alive again thanks to Daedalus, she might be upset that Vincent is in love with Re-l after she took on his memories, harming herself in the process.

Why do you think Re-l asked for Vincent's pendant at the end?

I think the show did it to make us question everything just a bit more. As to why Re-l herself did it, I'm not really sure.

What do you think caused Vincent to have this dream now?

If Swan is Monad, then I would imagine it is just their proximity to Romdo.

5
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

while talking to Dorothy and learn this whole thing was just a Proxy fight between Monad and Ergo or something.

I'm surprised more people don't share that concern. I think the show has built up enough good will that people trust it won't go that path but I know a couple of people were worried about that early on

3
Matuhghttps://anilist.co/user/Matuhg/•

Interesting - I don't actually think it is going to, but I certainly am more concerned that it might now than I was near the beginning when I had truly no idea what was going on.

1
Vaadwaur•

At this point I feel like we're going to get to the end of the show and have Vince snap back to awareness eating his Awakening Alpha-Bits while talking to Dorothy and learn this whole thing was just a Proxy fight between Monad and Ergo or something.

Time is a flat-circle. He sees you. You are in Carcosa now. We've done this before and we will do it again. And again. And again.

All of Vince's hopes, dreams and mopeyness were just a dream he had in a locked room. And like many dreams, there is a proxy at the end of it.

I think the show did it to make us question everything just a bit more. As to why Re-l herself did it, I'm not really sure.

Yeah, that bit was bad timing to the point of being bad plot. I don't mind the idea that Re-l wants something tangible from this journey but she has no read of the room for that one.

2
redshirtengineer•

I am posting again just to say that I got more out of all y'alls (ALL y'alls) comments in this thread than that episode. Thank you.

going back to being confused now

5
Vaadwaur•

I definitely got a huge benefit out of watching Kill la Kill during a rewatch. Figuring out what the focus was can be very helpful.

2
No_Rex•

Episode 20 (rewatcher)

  • “What is going on?” – a question the viewers often ask at the start of more out there EP episodes.
  • Hello Swan (ugly duckling metaphor?)
  • Seeing sad Pino is sad.
  • A small black Re-l in a bright white room. It is usually the positive color, but white can be used to portrait an oppressive atmosphere.
  • Disappearing to safe Re-l? Forgive my distrust of the idea after we have just seen an episode of Pino being betrayed.
  • A soap opera-esque dream world by Vincent.
  • “Kill yourself, it is only a dream” – I recall Total Recall.
  • Why would Pino recognize Vincent if he is only a part of Re-l’s brain.
  • All a dream. Again.

I liked this version of the dream better than the last. Walt Disney dystopia was fun, but split personality is the better concept. The first half of the episode was really impressive. Just, why did they have to pull the same basic structure two times in a row? The end was a bit haphazard even on its own, but coming right on the heels of another “it was a dream” episode makes it stand out even more so.

4
Vaadwaur•

The end was a bit haphazard even on its own, but coming right on the heels of another “it was a dream” episode makes it stand out even more so.

This is why I wish there was a better editor for the show. These eps needed to be better spaced and Disney land might've needed to happen 6 eps earlier.

3
No_Rex•

I am not sure whether it is an editing issue. All of the things I typically think of as "editing" work great in Ergo Proxy. It is more that the director's focus and pacing is so far from mainstream: more episodic and super slow.

The episodic focus works better on rewatch, but the pacing is still an issue.

1
Vaadwaur•

Perhaps director is the better term for a TV show but what's lacking is someone to come in and make sure the show actually works. I say editing because of the many hats I've worn I spent a few years editing theses for grad students. So what I am getting at is things like this ep's placement is horrible, especially with yesterdays ep, they tend to linger on points for whole episodes that only really fill half of an episode, and there are points where there is no feeling of advancement.

2
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

but white can be used to portrait an oppressive atmosphere.

Not an easy thing to pull off but I think they did well here. It's helped by the fact that it's so completely at odds with how dark the rest of the show is that so much white and empty space almost feels unnatural

3
RockoDynehttps://myanimelist.net/profile/RockoDyne•

A small black Re-l in a bright white room. It is usually the positive color, but white can be used to portrait an oppressive atmosphere.

It's less that it's white and more that it's desaturated. It's also grayer than you might think.

2
NomranaEst•

First timer, subbed

I guess this episode is a possible premonition of the Rabbit's arrival back at Romdo? And during that time, Ergo is plugged into Romdo to keep it running, while Re-l deals with the guilt of destroying her relationship with Vincent? And her guilt manifests as a version of Vincent?

While the end of the episode goes with the "it was just a dream" event, it felt like foreshadowing more than anything else. Perhaps Re-l is supposed to betray Vincent, but her journey has changed her so much that she can't do it? Without that betrayal, Romdo does not have a Proxy and is declining rapidly. However, if she goes through with it, the city will continue in it's holding pattern for the forseeable future.

More than anything, I think this may have been a ploy by Proxy One in the guise of Swan to reach out to Vincent. Much like B. Good's attempts at mercy, One is trying to fracture the trust of the crew by going for Vincent, by portraying Re-l in the worst light and implanting the idea that she would do so.

  1. Who do you think Swan was?

I'm near sold that she was Proxy One. The way she interacted with Vincent within the dream scape was on a level of B. Good. Her necklace chain also shares similarity with Vincent's pendant, and the constant glimmering kept on pulling my attention.

  1. Why do you think Re-l asked for Vincent's pendant at the end?

Not entirely sure, but it's definitely going to feed into the twisted information in Vincent's dream. The timing definetly wasn't the best, although I wouldn't be surprised if it was just because Re-l wanted a momento in case they get separated.

  1. What do you think caused Vincent to have this dream now?

He's slowly coming to the end of his journey, and will have to fully confront who and what he is, his history and his future. This may just be the beginning of that confrontation.

Comment of the day

4
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Perhaps Re-l is supposed to betray Vincent, but her journey has changed her so much that she can't do it?

I hadn't looked at it this way before, but this almost feels like a version of what would have happened if she'd brought Vincent back to Romdo when she was meant to, before Iggy lost the plot

Her necklace chain also shares similarity with Vincent's pendant,

Is it bad that I remembered was meant to represent a Proxy, noticed the glimmering of the chain, recognized that it looked like Vincents', and still forgot that it was an identical pendant until the end? XD

Comment of the day

2
NomranaEst•

I hadn't looked at it this way before, but this almost feels like a version of what would have happened if she'd brought Vincent back to Romdo when she was meant to, before Iggy lost the plot.

I have a feeling that was the plan. Have Re-l "die," get her to track down Vincent and return to plug him into Romdo. Iggy was quite insistent that they should return as soon as possible, but Re-l decided to take the opportunity to explore with Vincent instead.

However, her world view shifted slightly after Iggy's death, something which I doubt they had planned for.

2
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

However, her world view shifted slightly after Iggy's death, something which I doubt they had planned for.

Good old Iggy ruining everything.

I doubt they accounted for Re-l's frustration with the city as well. Even knowing she's rebellious, everyone around her is content with the way things are so the idea of her just not returning probably didn't even cross their minds

2
Vaadwaur•

While the end of the episode goes with the "it was just a dream" event, it felt like foreshadowing more than anything else.

That's not a bad takeaway, though I would go a step more specific and say this is partly Vince's anxieties about returning to Romdo. Further, it is clear that Swan is trying to fuck with Vince's perceptions here, so whatever their identity, the most honest thing we got was what Vince wants.

1
NomranaEst•

That's not a bad takeaway, though I would go a step more specific and say this is partly Vince's anxieties about returning to Romdo.

I can see that, as Re-l suggested that Vincent isn't the only one with worries about their return. It seems that Vincent has quite a bit more to worry about in the end though, especially with Swan fucking with him.

2
NoviSunhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun•

This is one of those episodes that I didn't really understand very well. I think by the end it will become clear what this episode was about, until then, it remains a mystery.

QOTD

Who do you think Swan was?

I think she may well be an older clone of Re-l, though I don't have any evidence to support that other than proximity to Daedalus

Why do you think Re-l asked for Vincent's pendant at the end?

I'm hoping that was a coincidence. I think Re-l was just trying to make a joke and proving she's not very good at it.

What do you think caused Vincent to have this dream now?

Getting close to Romdel is what I think triggered it. Though, considering it's contents, I'd take it as an ill omen, swing the air ship around and head towards the hills.

4
TheKujohttps://myanimelist.net/profile/Kujo419•

I think Re-l was just trying to make a joke and proving she's not very good at it.

I can see that too. "Hey, can you give me this thing that's incredibly important and meaningful to you and your identity? LOL!"

3
Vaadwaur•

Ironically, I now see how Re-l might've meant as a really bad joke, now.

2
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Did reading through the discussion thread help at all?

I think Re-l was just trying to make a joke and proving she's not very good at it.

Clearly she needs to spend some more time with Pino

2
NoviSunhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun•

Did reading through the discussion thread help at all?

Yes, I now understand what's up. ;)

2
AmeteurElitisthttps://myanimelist.net/profile/AmateurElitist•

First Timer

Vince didnt have an entirely positive view of Re-l going by how she acted in his dream (if were calling it that (also this show really likes its dream episodes (third set of brackets))), but he imagined a Re-l that cared about him so much that shed develop a multiple personality disorder in order to deal with the guilt from betraying him which is sweet in a twisted way.

He really thinks poorly of Daedalus if the bratty little brother depiction is anything to go by though. Also doesn't feel threatened by him romantically, but feels like Daedalus doesn't approve of him being close to Re-l.

3
TheKujohttps://myanimelist.net/profile/Kujo419•

Vince didnt have an entirely positive view of Re-l going by how she acted in his dream (if were calling it that (also this show really likes its dream episodes (third set of brackets))), but he imagined a Re-l that cared about him so much that shed develop a multiple personality disorder in order to deal with the guilt from betraying him which is sweet in a twisted way.

Not only that, she apologized a whole three times in the dream! That's probably three times as many apologies as Re-L has done IRL.

5
AmeteurElitisthttps://myanimelist.net/profile/AmateurElitist•

2
Koolsman•

He really thinks poorly of Daedalus if the bratty little brother depiction is anything to go by though.

If only he knew, then Vince would have a completely different version of Daedalus. One that wouldn't be the best.

4
AmeteurElitisthttps://myanimelist.net/profile/AmateurElitist•

Doesn't look like he'd like Daedalus regardless of what happens.

4
Shimmering-Skyhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky•

First-Timer, dubbed

I can’t believe it’s taken this long since ep3 to get another episode where I just don’t know what to comment on because I was so engrossed in wtf was going on, but here we are.

One thing I guess: I should’ve known the whole thing was Proxy shenanigans and not what was actually happening, but I didn’t until Vincent figured it out. Was still really cool though.

3
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Now that's the sign of an engaging episode, so absorbed in it you don't even know where to start. Glad to see you're still enjoying it so much

2
OnPorpoise1https://myanimelist.net/profile/okidli1•

First Timer, Sub

That has got to be my favourite episode yet!

​

  1. Who do you think Swan was? I have a feeling she never existed. I think Vincent is scared of what Re-l might do when they return to Romdo and came up with a story in his mind. It would be on theme for the episode.
  2. Why do you think Re-l asked for Vincent's pendant at the end? I think it was foreshadowing that Vincent's predictions may not be completely off, and there is some truth to it.
  3. What do you think caused Vincent to have this dream now? As I said in question 1, Vincent's fear that Re-l will betray him; she already tried to kill him, so IDK what will happen.
3
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

That has got to be my favourite episode yet!

I think Vincent is scared of what Re-l might do when they return to Romdo and came up with a story in his mind.

So just an honest to god dream sequence with no Proxy fuckery and it's all purely in his mind borne from his own worries? That would be a nice change from how things have been going for him so far

1
OnPorpoise1https://myanimelist.net/profile/okidli1•

that's my theory. I have a hard time believing that a proxy would give Vincent that weird dream, but not follow up on it. Every other time we've seen a proxy they've ended up dying after (I think) but we never actually see a proxy here. I think it's just Vincent being paranoid about what may happen in Romdo, with some weird dream elements thrown in.

1
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Every other time we've seen a proxy they've ended up dying after (I think)

Except for the Bookstore proxy

1
OnPorpoise1https://myanimelist.net/profile/okidli1•

good point. I forgot about him, and that does discredit my theory a bit, but it's still plausible.

1
23feanor•

First Timer (dub):

That was one hell of a confusing episode, found it really hard to follow what was going on.

Did anyone else notice that when Re-L was at dinner with Daedalus & Swan the first time, it looked like she was wearing a black bra over/on top of her outfit & a couple of other times, it looked really weird.

This is why I don't normally watch psychological shows, as I find them harder to engage. It's often worth the payoff once you get involved in such shows, but it takes more concentration to follow what's going on. I'm not sure what the point of that whole episode was, when at the end we find out none of it happened & they're still on the ship. Is it prophetic?

Q1. Swan puzzled me. I initially thought that she was the younger, clone version of Re-L that Daedalus has been nurturing since the real Re-L left Romdo. But I then realised that Vince hasn't met the new Re-L, that we know of, so how could she appear to him in a vision.

Q2, I hope it's not for a sinister reason, but I've gotten a funny feeling that it is. She thinks hte pendant is important, although she may not know exactly how, but she saw the second pendant at Mosk & clearly saw its significance.

Q3. I wonder if it was Monad, as at one point Swan or Re-L mentioned something about him always having other women's scent on him, with more than a hint of jealousy. And I remembered that Monad proxy had feelings for Vince. Just a guess, although Monad is supposed to be dead.

3
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

wearing a black bra over/on top of her outfit & a couple of other times, it looked really weird.

It's always been there, it's just part of the look of her clothes, one of the layers

Huh, apparently out of all of the screenshots I've taken I don't have a picture of Re-l from the front, that surprises me. Hopefully you can see it here

Good answers to the QotD though

2
Vaadwaur•

I'm not sure what the point of that whole episode was, when at the end we find out none of it happened & they're still on the ship. Is it prophetic?

My take is that once you get to Vince's dream life, you can take that at face value. He wants a job, a wife, and an unremarkable life. However, is that worth an entire episode? At this stage of the game?

2
Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor•

Rewatch – Dub

  • I actually don’t remember so much about the following last batch of episodes, so it will be interesting to see just how much I actually remember.
  • Wait, what’s going on? Did Vincent got forced into a gender transition trap?
  • Oh, alright, he is just in one of those I-Have-No-Mouth-And-I-Must-Scream type situations, I get it.
  • There is something weird about this “Swan” lady, is she a vat-grown person like “little” Re-L, or perhaps somehow connected to a Proxy?
  • Think this is the first time we saw Pino really angry and frustrated, nevertheless broke my heart to see her cry.
  • Holy shit, Vincent is not holding back, god damn.
  • The way Swan is acting makes me feel like the Vincent inside Re-L is somehow the real Vincent, and she is trying to snuff him out.
  • “For Re-L I’d do anything.” She betrayed you dude.
  • Evangelion spoilers
  • Neat that it’s Re-L being wounded that breaks the fantasy.
  • Similar to the yesterday’s episode we start pretty confused and end up generally understanding what’s going on. Makes me wonder what Swan’s objective was to exactly. I don’t think she could kill Vincent through his dreams, was it to get him to kill Re-L in reality so he would succumb to despair and die as well? Or was it to somehow get the pendant from him through his dreams?

QftD

  1. Either a Proxy or a trick played by Proxy One, I'm not sure either way.

  2. I'd like to imagine it was something casual, or maybe she was joking. Or maybe she had a similar dream as well, and tried to test the waters by wondering if Vincent would give her the pendant, realizing this was real when he didn't give.

  3. Not quite sure. Perhaps Proxy One is attacked him closer he is to Romdo?

3
punching_spaghettihttps://myanimelist.net/profile/punch_spaghetti•

was it to get him to kill Re-L in reality so he would succumb to despair and die as well

I don't know how that would have worked; he doesn't seem to be acting in the real world while the crazy dream stuff is going on. Maybe there's an endpoint where Swan gets full hypnotic control over someone, and that transfers into the real world?

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Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor•

I'd imagine that the lines between real and imaginary would blur to such degree that Vincent would come to believe Re-L actually planned to betray him, or perhaps hypnotic control, like you said.

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NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

I-Have-No-Mouth-And-I-Must-Scream type situations

Immediately brought to mind that scene in the Matrix

Eva spoilers

I can see that, probably similar sort of character moment as well

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aj_bnhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/MisterEthical311•

First Timer - Dub

  • "You've been in a coma . . . for nine years." MGSV vibes

  • Tags: Body Swap

  • Another human? How did we get to this point?

  • Gorgeous closeup.

  • WHERE'S PINO?!

  • It seems Romdeau's anxieties over dying off have died down after Re-L returned.

  • What have they done? They've massacred my girl!

  • Damn, spiteful words from Pino. How could Re-L have fallen so far to receive that kind of treatment? It breaks my heart when she starts crying

  • So the Vincent inside of Re-L isn't mentally connected to the real Vince?

  • Split personalities? Holy shit, this just got fucking bonkers!

  • Here we go, another cerebral episode.

  • YES GO PINO!

  • It was all a dream.

Well, I'm a little torn. Last episode I talked about how these character episodes might take away from a developed ending. Plus, I personally hate "it was all a dream(?)" endings.

I'll have to check out the group's analysis on what went over my head this episode and maybe I'll be able to appreciate it a bit more. Interestingly enough, this is the second time a Proxy was able to invade the mind of another from a far distance. Maybe Vincent has this power as well?

Anyways, I'll see you guys in the next one.

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punching_spaghettihttps://myanimelist.net/profile/punch_spaghetti•

Maybe Vincent has this power as well?

That's not something I had thought of, but good point. That might explain how he was able to give his memories to someone else.

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aj_bnhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/MisterEthical311•

Wow, I didn't even connect that!

3
NazennOPhttps://anilist.co/user/Nazenn•

Another human?

I like how we've now reached the point where having a human character is actually notable, double points if she's sane

So the Vincent inside of Re-L isn't mentally connected to the real Vince?

Raises the question of who the real Vince is? Not that everyone refers to the Proxy as Vincent Law, not Ergo Proxy, despite the fact that it's Ergo's look and voice.

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Vaadwaur•

Last episode I talked about how these character episodes might take away from a developed ending. Plus, I personally hate "it was all a dream(?)" endings.

Regardless of quality, as to me this is the best of the mindfuck episodes, its placement is bloody terrible, leaving us hungry for the actual plot while the story meanders. Add in it follows another 'it was a dream' ep and someone in the director's chair should've found a better place to put this if it was necessary.

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JustAnswerAQuestionhttps://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ/•

First Rewatch -- Sub

Man, what the hell was that. Now I'm no longer annoyed, now I'm pissed off. Another detour away from the ending.

Sometime around this point I started binging on my first watch.

I had forgotten this episode existed.

Once again we have an episode that was entirely in-the-head/a-dream. Just like last episode. But unlike last episode, the dream didn't even have a resolution, it just ends with the dreamer waking up.

Maybe there's some psychological interpretation that can redeem this episode. Was Vincent warring against himself? Against Ergo Proxy, his other self? Or was this another maybe-proxy-attack?

We can't even be sure of Vincent's perfect world: comfortable life as a high ranking citizen of Romdo, engaged to marry Re-l. Is that his real dream, or an external construct? Who knows!

It may be a spoiler to say, but we don't see Swan again. Which is why I completely forgot about the episode; the episode was completely forgettable, and had no consequence, save whatever questions it brings to the minds of the audience.

Her character design sure was familiar, though. Edit: Miho from Witch Hunter Robin

This episode reminded me of: Total Recall (1990)

3
Vaadwaur•

Man, what the hell was that. Now I'm no longer annoyed, now I'm pissed off. Another detour away from the ending.

And that's how I felt about Game Show and Disney Land. By this one, I was number and less prone to anger. Though I also had blanked this ep out to the point I couldn't recognize it from the preview. It all came flooding back at the first scene, though.

Or was this another maybe-proxy-attack?

That is the view I formed on both watches of it.

We can't even be sure of Vincent's perfect world: comfortable life as a high ranking citizen of Romdo, engaged to marry Re-l. Is that his real dream, or an external construct? Who knows!

You know, that's pretty good point. The only redeeming part of this ep for me is that it gave us Vince's dream. If that turns out to be proxy influenced then this was just a waste of time in its entirety.

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