r/asoiaf•
smittyDX

(Spoilers Extended) How would Jon have handled the actions of Lord Rickard Karstark?

EXTENDED

Rickard Karstark killed the innocent Lannister boys. Robb cut off his head. It's hard to say that was his ultimate demise but it perhaps was not the right move in this context.

I'm only a few chapters into the 2nd book but I am beginning to take an interest in Robb's character, the deeper part that we don't really see, even in the show (perhaps especially in the show).

He's only 15 in the books and from what I've read he is scared, inexperienced, and a bit irrational with his decisions. The show portrays him older obviously and a bit more manly and strong willed.

Show Jon, especially in the seasons 5 and 6 is much more rational and understanding. Particularly the Jon we see that executes Janos, Olly, and Allister but spares the young Umber and Karstark.

The interesting thing is that I believe Ned would have killed Rickard, even in the same context of war. Though I am unsure if Jon would. Resurrected Jon in show that becomes King in the North is a bit wiser perhaps (atleast until season 7 and 8) but we haven't seen that Jon in the books

Posted Feb 17, 2020, 8:03 AM UTC

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Minas_NolmeDance with me then.•

Don't forget that Karstark didn't just murder two Lannister hostages but also the Tully men guarding them.

Executing him was the right decision. If Robb shows mercy to the completely unapologetic Rickard, then he will lose the respect of his vassals. After all, the main task of a King is to defend his bannermen. If he lets the murder of his sworn men go unpunished, he violates the core of the feudal contract.

I'd also add that before the execution, the Karstark men desert Robb's army to start pillaging in the Riverlands. Keeping Rickard alive wouldn't make them turn back and thus grant no strategic advantage.

Both Jon and Ned would have done the same.

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griljedi•

In that situation Robb should’ve acted so differently. He should’ve captured him and used as hostage against Karstark house

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Minas_NolmeDance with me then.•

The Karstark men had already deserted knowing that their Lord was captured. They didn't care anymore at that point. It might have been different if Rickard had shown remorse and promised to call back his troops. But he didn't. He openly mocked Robb and rejected his authority. Keeping him captive wouldn't do anything, except further undermining his authority.

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GrantMK2•

In fairness it might have helped keep the Karstark men with Roose Bolton under control (setting aside that Bolton was screwing Robb over, which Robb couldn't have known) but given how much Karstark had disobeyed Robb in multiple ways and kept trying to up the antagonism, Robb basically had to execute him anyway.

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saminstark•

Facts

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genkausBest of 2018: Dondarrion Brain-Stormlord Award•

but it perhaps was not the right move in this context.

It was the only move in the context. Rickard Karstark made sure not to leave Robb any other choice.

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To begin with it wasn't just about killing the Lannister boys. Karstark also killed the guards protecting them - guards who were in Robb's (and Edmure's) service. Even if Robb can pardon him for killing Lannisters, citing them as the enemy, there is no excuse for killing his men.

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Second, Karstark was openly defiant and unapologetic. He was openly disregarding Robb's authority and undermining his position without an ounce of remorse. If Robb spares him after that, he'd look weak and it'd be an open invitation to other lords to be similarly defiant. In order to reassert his authority, Robb cannot be afford to be soft here.

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Third, sparing Karstark wouldn't have kept his army together either. Karstark made sure of that. Even before he made a move on the Lannister boys, he'd instructed his men to secretly decamp and go hunting for Jaime Lannister. So the "army" Robb might've wanted to keep together was already gone.

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And fourth - the last thing that Karstark had done that left Robb no choice - was his open-ended offer that any man who brought him Jaime's head would get his daughter's hand in marriage. This made certain that not only the Karstark men but every outlaw and sellsword in Riverlands would be looking to kill Jaime. And if Jaime dies, so does Sansa. Robb cannot retract this offer and he cannot make Karstark retract it either. The only chance he has of stopping this runaway train is to kill Karstark - once he's dead, it makes sense that his offer no longer stands.

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So yes, given the context, Robb was left with no choice but to execute Rickard Karstark and if Jon is not the idiot he was in seasons 6 and 7, he'd do the same.

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Mithras_StonebornBest of 2018: The Mannis Award•

Ask Janos Slynt

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ksh12bro•

Fetch me a block.

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saminstark•

Edd

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GrantMK2•

I'd say not much difference. Karstark's actions were a serious defiance of Robb's command and responsibilities, murdering not just Robb's prisoners but also two of his subjects, and prior to the murders basically did his best to guarantee he would screw the Starks over in the middle of a war by sending his men off on their own to kill Jaime (the show completely reversed the order of events, probably for their "honor is stupid" thinking).

With that kind of problem, you can't really do anything other than condemn him to die. The only other option would be the NW, which isn't very practical at this point in time, and Karstark doesn't show an interest in it. The idea of covering it up is impossible with the Karstark desertions, even if they hadn't at any future peace talks Robb would eventually have to admit why Tion Frey and Willem Lannister aren't going to be traded, and it would make everyone question Robb the moment it came out. After all, what good is his word if he covers up the murder of noble children and doesn't do anything to their murderer?

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sticky-tooth•

There's a very good example of what Jon might do regarding Karstark tomfoolery but it happens in Dance and I don't want to spoil too much for you!

Edit: Unless you're okay with being spoiled, then I could probably write an essay.

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CharlieTheStrawman•

Spoiler tag the essay.

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GrantMK2•

The tags for this are Spoilers Extended. The OP is opening it up to talk about spoilers for well beyond where they've read, at least in theory.

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sticky-tooth•

Whoops, missed that!

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griljedi•

Probably Jon would captured him and keep as hostage, i would so.

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saminstark•

Makes sense.

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SerIggyLeaping red herring•

I'm not sure if you know this, but the "Spoilers: Extended" tag opens this post up for people to give spoilers on all of the books.

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smittyDXOPEnter your desired flair text here!•

Yes that's alright. I've watched so many videos on the books I know about what happens anyway, figures I may as well read them.

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Grow_Beyond•

Let's say Cotter Pyke at Eastwatch learned of Mance escaping, or being let free by a certain redhead who Jon doesn't seriously punish. So, Pyke kills several black brother guards, in order to kill a few wildling children under Jons protection, orders his men to desert, offers Eastwatch to whoever kills Mance, and spits in Jons face saying he is no Lord Commander to him.

Jon is taking his head.

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Next-Tree•

Jon Snow would have executed Karstark. Jon Snow believes in justice and would not simply cover up murder. Robb did the correct thing. Being king means protecting the innocent and pursuing justice

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