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r/tolkienfans•
ExcellentWeather

The Importance of Names in the Lord of the Rings

I was reading the chapter Treebeard when I realized something interesting. After the Hobbits tell him that they call themselves Hobbits, Treebeard says "But you should not go telling just anybody. You'll be letting out your own right names if you're not careful". When they tell him their full names, he warns them again about what else lurks in the forest that might be listening. Treebeard also won't tell them his full name (although that's partly because of how long it is).

On the other side of things, we have Tom Bombadil. He seems to be nothing but a name. When asked who he is, he responds "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer".

I'd also like point out the next line: "Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?" It's a line I've given a fair amount of thought to and one that still perplexes me. I know Tolkien has said Tom is a character that doesn't need (and shouldn't have) too much deep thinking about, but he's just such a strange one.

But here we have two characters, both of whom are given the title of "eldest living creature on Middle Earth" by one person or another, making note as to the importance of your name.

I think both see the extreme value in names, whatever it might be, and that the difference in their approach to talking about it is due to their characters. Tom is very happy-go-lucky and free, seemingly ignorant of the terrors that lie beyond his forest. I wouldn't go as far as to say he doesn't care about the rest of Middle Earth, but even Elrond remarks on his indifference and peculiarities. Treebeard, on the other hand, has watched with great sorrow as his forests shrink and everything he once loved gets taken away.

So I wanted to ask for your insights! What do you think is so important about names? Are they something to be kept secret, as Treebeard says, or something to delight in and spread willingly, as Tom Bombadil makes evident.

Edit: Interesting! So far we have two main responses! u/NSatin is saying that it comes from Tolkien's background as a Catholic while u/squire_hyde is attributing it to his lifelong fascination with language and his career in philology. I'm sure there are elements of both!

u/squire_hyde also pointed out a passage where Gandalf is talking about names after he is sent back to Middle Earth. Scroll down and take a look!

Posted Feb 17, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC · edited

40962
NSatin•

It reflects Catholicism. Names (and words) have power. From Peter Kreeft:

"There are words that, whatever you believe theologically, are sacraments; they effect what they signify. I'll give you two that everybody knows are sacramental words: 'I love you' and 'I hate you.' And for anybody who has any liturgical understanding, 'I baptize thee', or 'This is My body.' These are not labels; they're spiritual weapons. They're arrows that pierce through flesh and into hearts.

"Well, in a lesser but real way, the whole of The Lord of the Rings is an armour-piercing rocket that can get into your underground bunkers, your inner Afghanistans or Iraqs. And the most powerful of these arrows are the proper names, the names of persons, or places. When the Black Rider bangs on Fatty Bolger's door in Buckland saying, 'Open in the name of Mordor,' all the authority and terror and power of Mordor are really present there.

"When Frodo on Weathertop faces the Black Rider, "h e heard himself crying aloud: 'O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!'" [3] He's speaking in tongues – He doesn't understand Elvish – as he strikes the Rider with his sword. Afterwards Aragorn commented on this event; he said, "all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth." [4] Frodo again speaks in tongues in Shelob's lair. "'Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima!' he cried, and knew not what he had spoken; for it seemed that another voice spoke through his."

"What's in a name? In the name of Jesus, devils were exorcised. Hell was defeated. Heaven's gate was opened. What's in a name? In a name the whole universe was created. Everything is in a name, because that name was the Word of God, the mind of God, the logos. What's in a name? Moses asked God that question at the burning bush, and God answered I Am.

There's an old myth of an original language. It's in the Bible: the story of the tower of Babel – which is beginning to be undone by Pentecost. It's in Plato, in his Dialogue with the Kratulus. It's not a popular idea anymore, but it's in a lot of classical literature. Once upon a time, there was not only one language, but the right language, the perfect language. Well, if that is true, that would explain why every proper name of Tolkien's seems exactly right. That's a power even his critics marvel at. When we read those names, we're remembering; we're doing Plato's anamnesis unconsciously; our cognition is a re-cognition, a recognition. Our word detector buzzes when we meet the right word, the Platonic ideal, the Jungian archetype. We experience discovery rather than invention."

** Edit **

I know Reddit can get weird about link posting but if you Google search "peter kreeft names have power" you'll see it in more detail.

109
Xyllar•

This may be a bit off topic, but I just wanted to point out that Frodo does understand Elvish and is not "speaking in tongues" in the traditional Catholic sense of glossolalia. In Chapter 3 of Fellowship he speaks Elvish to Gildor, who acknowledges that he seems to have learned it from Bilbo:

"I thank you indeed" said Frodo bowing. "Elen síla lúmenn omentilmo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting," he added in the high elven-speech.
"Be careful friends!" cried Gildor laughing. "Speak no secrets! Here is a scholar in the Ancient Tongue. Bilbo was a good master. Hail, Elf-friend!"

42
NSatin•

That's true, but, he isn't "fluent."

13
Xyllar•

Yeah, I actually removed "fluent" part of my comment almost immediately after posting it because I realized it didn't fit. Still, the couple phrases Frodo speaks seem more akin to a Catholic who isn't fluent in Latin reciting a few commonly used invocations than actual "speaking in tongues."

10
termeownator•

Invoking the name of Varda doesn't require fluency, though, does it?

6
NSatin•

You'd have to ask Tolkien, lol. We know Frodo can speak and understand "some" High Elvish, but he's definitely not a "native speaker," as they say. Take his "Hail Mary" in Shelob's lair: it's noted he has zero comprehension of what he exclaims.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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lit_word_bot•

Wow u/NSatin, ANAMNESIS is a great word!

(noun) AN*AM*NE*SIS

  1. a recalling to mind : reminiscence

..or a preliminary case history of a medical or psychiatric patient

^(Downvote this if I was a bad bot! I will immediately delete it.) ^github ^top

19
scriptifexSo comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their endings.•

Good bot

1
B0tRank•

Thank you, scriptifex, for voting on lit_word_bot.

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1
Higher_Living•

It's older than Catholicism, or Christianity and is basically a universal idea in human cultures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name

18
WikiTextBot•

True name

A true name is a name of a thing or being that expresses, or is somehow identical to, its true nature. The notion that language, or some specific sacred language, refers to things by their true names has been central to philosophical study as well as various traditions of magic, religious invocation and mysticism (mantras) since antiquity.

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15
undergarden•

Yes. Earthsea in LeGuin is the big go-to here.

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squire_hyde•

That's a very interesting comparison, because in Earthsea it's the language of Dragons and Segoy, while in Middle Earth it's the language of the elves. A not inconsequential difference, since her world doesn't seem to have different races quite like elves, dwarves or orcs, though it has different peoples like the Children of the sea and the Kargs (a bit like the Iron Islanders before GRRM). Even Arren seems alike but different to Aragorn. It would be very interesting to compare her trilogy with LotR in detail.

3
NSatin•

If you're not familiar with Catholic theology or Divine Accommodation there's not much to respond to.

2†
Higher_Living•

Just thought it was worth noting that this idea is ancient and widespread and like a lot of things has been incorporated into later traditions including the Christian one.

13
DarrenGreyFëanor laughed as one fey•

And Tolkien would have been well aware of that too.

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[deleted]•

[removed]

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englandgreen•

Words have power.

Gandalf uses a word of power in Moria.

Luthien uses words of power against Sauron and Morgoth.

Finrod Felegund uses words of power against Sauron.

  • “Let there be light”. And there was light.
12
squire_hyde•

It reflects Catholicism

That's true, to an extent. We know he was inventing languages with his cousins (aminalic and nevbosh) whilst he was being brought up catholic by his mother and after she died, likely before he was confirmed (I haven't confirmed that date). They seem rather 'of a piece'. There is one distinct parallel, that strikes me though, which is relevant to our topic of names or what's nearly the same (quoting Humphrey Carpenter)

philology: the science of words

or put another way, the love of words. Compare this passage from the Silmarillion

In the changes of the world the shapes of lands and of seas have been broken and remade; rivers have not kept their courses, neither have mountains remained steadfast; and to Cuiviénen there is no returning. But it is said among the Elves that it lay far off in the east of Middle-earth, and northward, and it was a bay in the Inland Sea of Helcar; and that sea stood where aforetime the roots of the mountain of Illuin had been before Melkor overthrew it. Many waters flowed down thither from heights in the east, and the first sound that was heard by the Elves was the sound of water flowing, and the sound of water falling over stone.

Long they dwelt in their first home by the water under stars, and they walked the Earth in wonder; and they began to make speech and to give names to all things that they perceived. Themselves they named the Quendi, signifying those that speak with voices; for as yet they had met no other living things that spoke or sang.

with this well known one from the good book.

And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed... And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Both stories that tell of the creation of a world, also tell of the first true names. Convincingly enough that James IV tried to rediscover that first primeval language from before Babel with children. There are precursors like Thoth, but it seems Ronald either wasn't aware or not enamored of them in the same way.

Some quite striking similarities, as well as differences. It's rather daring retelling that biblical style story, possibly even fixing its flaws. One man dubbing everything versus a community of speakers of both sexes sharing that an onerous task. I also love how it's not just words or speech in the Silmarillion, it's song.

And on a time it chanced that Oromë rode eastward in his hunting, and he turned north by the shores of Helcar and passed under the shadows of the Orocarni, the Mountains of the East. Then on a sudden Nahar set up a great neighing, and stood still. And Oromë wondered and sat silent, and it seemed to him that in the quiet of the land under the stars he heard afar off many voices singing.

Language, music and poetry springing clear and clean, all from one and the same source. Not to get too sentimental, but Middle Earth sounds far more beautiful than Eden. I suppose there's choirs of Seraphim later on, but I side with George R.R. Martin

They can keep their heaven. When I die, I'd sooner go to middle Earth

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squire_hyde•

This is such a deep subject for Tolkien it's very hard to do it justice and difficult to even introduce a little of its multifaceted nature and the themes involved for him. Quoting liberally from letters

...an autobiography. I began the construction of languages in early boyhood: I am primarily a scientific philologist.

It's well worth noting that names and naming are mentioned in practically half of his letters, like

...the remark about 'philology' was intended to allude to what is I think a primary 'fact' about my work, that it is all of a piece, and fundamentally linguistic in inspiration... The invention of languages is the foundation. The 'stones' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse. To me a name comes first and the story follows.

which casts some phrases spoken by characters in new lights, like Treebeards

Who calls you hobbits, though? That does not sound Elvish to me. Elves made all the old words: they began it.’

which (in a sense) clearly shows the well he's drawing from. Names in a very fundamental, foundational sense, are magic.

Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation

How else do elves know how to name everything?

For I am not going to tell you my name, not yet at any rate.’ A queer half-knowing, half-humorous look came with a green flicker into his eyes. ‘For one thing it would take a long while: my name is growing all the time, and I’ve lived a very long, long time; so my name is like a story. Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to...

as a simple sort of meta example, consider two of his comments about 'elves'

those creatures which in English I call misleadingly Elves [Intending the word to be understood in its ancient meanings, which continued as late as Spenser — a murrain on Will Shakespeare and his damned cobwebs.]

and

'Elves' is a translation, not perhaps now very suitable, but originally good enough, of Quendi. They are represented as a race similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature. I will not here go into their differences from Men ! But I suppose that the Quendi are in fact in these histories very little akin to the Elves and Fairies of Europe; and if I were pressed to rationalize, I should say that they represent really Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer life, and nobility – the Elder Children, doomed to fade before the Followers (Men), and to live ultimately only by the thin line of their blood that was mingled with that of Men, among whom it was the only real claim to 'nobility'.

Where he's translating from his invented language back into English, all informed by his wealth of literary and philological experience and his guiding aesthetic.

It's well worth knowing philology is now an underserved and probably greatly underappreciated branch of linguistics, 'old fashioned', which probably also means difficult and erudite lore. In this age of almost instant forgettableness (because who needs to remember things when it can be aided mechanically?) remembering many things, like different shades of meanings and various uses of words (just to compile the O.E.D before electro-mechanical word processors) is practically a foreign and possibly declining (if not dying) skill, not unlike handwriting. Incidentally he wrote and didn't type, which might also explain his fondness for scripts (in the appendices).

He also seems to have specialized in names. England was a particularly fruitful place to study them, because you have all sorts of variegated influences and enough surviving documents to do some good and deep research. Anyway as to it's importance, consider a few of the Lord of the Rings main characters.

As part of his scheme to leave the Shire, Frodo Baggins takes an alias, Mr Underhill. Even how he came to become a Baggins and reside 'underhill' is an important story, namely that of his parents and Bilbo.

Merry and Pippin go by their nick names rarely their true, almost evidence of their high status while Sams true name is just Sam, simple like himself and doesn't change.

Strider... we don't start to learn who he is, until we're told his name, and what a name it is.

Gandalf has more names than he does garments apparently, and sheds them just as easily.

‘My name!’ said the old man again. ‘Have you not guessed it already? You have heard it before, I think. Yes, you have heard it before. But come now, what of your tale?’ The three companions stood silent and made no answer. ‘There are some who would begin to doubt whether your errand is fit to tell,’ said the old man. ‘Happily I know something of it. You are tracking the footsteps of two young hobbits, I believe. Yes, hobbits. Don’t stare, as if you had never heard the strange name before...

‘Mithrandir!’ he cried. ‘Mithrandir!’...At last Aragorn stirred. ‘Gandalf!’ he said... Gimli said nothing, but sank to his knees, shading his eyes.

‘Gandalf,’ the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’

He stepped down from the rock, and picking up his grey cloak wrapped it about him: it seemed as if the sun had been shining, but now was hid in cloud again. ‘Yes, you may still call me Gandalf,’ he said, and the voice was the voice of their old friend and guide. ‘Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.’

He laid his hand on Gimli’s head, and the Dwarf looked up and laughed suddenly. ‘Gandalf!’ he said. ‘But you are all in white!’ ‘Yes, I am white now,’ said Gandalf. ‘Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.

It's also very important that many names are Patronyms. Frodo son of Drogo, Aragorn son of Arathorn, Gimli son of Gloin, Beren son of Barahir and on and on. The few characters that lack them almost stand out because of it. Gandalf for an obvious example, Sauron for another and Tom perhaps being the most enigmatic. Mortals have patronyms (or sometimes matronyms). This all barely scratches the surface. A good long essay or book could be written focusing just on Tolkien, naming and names, to join others on a lengthening shelf! *spelling

85
DarrenGreyFëanor laughed as one fey•

One little correction on this otherwise excellent comment - Sam's true name is Samwise.

It's also interesting that we see Aragorn and Gandalf go by names given them by others.

Consider also Turin who thinks he can escape his fate by changing his name. But changing his name doesn't change him, and he fails to realise it's his decisions not his fate that are plaguing him.

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squire_hyde•

Sam's true name is Samwise

Of course you're right. I knew it moments after posting it and rereading, and wondered who'd notice and how long it would take. Not long and I'm happy to be corrected by one so wise, recognizing you from your many excellent comments. There are a few others like youself, rainbowrobin, PurelySC and two or three older posters who it's rare to see anymore (though their names escape me). Uluithiad has been missing of late, about a month. Maybe busy or taking a break. Hopefully they're well and not too bothered or run off by doofuses like me who (hopefully only very) occasionally disagree with them. As to the subject at hand...

Sam is a contraction of Samwise (Gamgee), which he remains from start to finish (contrast that with 'Frodo of the Nine Fingers'), though there's something to say about that. Quoting letter 72

Sam by the way is an abbreviation not of Samuel but of Samwise (the Old E. for Half-wit), as is his father's name the Gaffer (Ham) for O.E. Hamfast or Stayathome. Hobbits of that class have very Saxon names as a rule – and I am not really satisfied with the surname Gamgee and shd. change it to Goodchild if I thought you would let me.

It's amusing because Sam is a half-wit, and the Gaffer is a homebody (or 'homey' as it's said by some these days). Sams 'wise' is initially ironic, rather like 'little john' (I don't know the history of that name, it might be interesting too). By the end though Sam truly has a modicum of wisdom and earns the epithet honestly. Goodchild, seems a bit too on the nose for me, well done Chris for restraining his dad, though I suppose it could also start ironic then be earned too. Sam spying and running off adventuring is a bit prodigal, but

It had been officially announced that Sam was coming to Buckland ‘to do for Mr. Frodo and look after his bit of garden’; an arrangement that was approved by the Gaffer

who then can't so justly complain of him being bad so much as absent, another reason for not Goodchild. As for retiring Gaffer Gamgee, he's evicted

there’s the poor old Gaffer going down the Hill with his bits of things on a barrow. I must go home!’

This contrasts somewhat with the origins of Frodo (Germanic), Merry (Welsh) and Pippins (Latin) names, which might have little (or not so) stories behind them too. I think his stories grew out of names a bit like the tree grew out of the leaf. Maybe botanically backwards, but artistically (or maybe philologically) straight forward.

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DarrenGreyFëanor laughed as one fey•

The history of the hobbit names is particularly interesting because of just how long they evolved, and how Tolkien switched names between characters or merged different hobbits into one with different characteristics getting stitched together. For a very long time an "Odo" was a fifth hobbit in the company, and it wasn't until very late that Tolkien switched from Bingo to Frodo.

I think there's a lot in Tolkien's early drafts that I'm glad he eventually changed. It's hard to imagine taking some of the characters seriously if they were called Bladorthin, Bingo or Gnomes.

On the other hand we manage to have serious discussion about Tom Bombadil, so who knows.

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Jesst3r•

Am I misremembering that Sam starts going by Samwise Gardner or was that something people called him after his death?

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squire_hyde•

I don't know. I could easily be forgetful or mistaken. I don't remember any mention of (a surely extended list of) his names in the fourth age, by what titles respectful Hobbits called him, whose story might go beyond the scope of The Lord of the Rings. There's probably fragments or letters I'm unaware of or neglecting.

Frodo does tell him

You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone, so that people will remember the Great Danger and so love their beloved land all the more.

Which maybe distills the deepest themes and purposes of their story and maybe all great stories. It also hearkens back to the stairs of Cirith Ungol

But you’ve left out one of the chief characters: Samwise the stouthearted. ‘‘I want to hear more about Sam, dad. Why didn’t they put in more of his talk, dad? That’s what I like, it makes me laugh. And Frodo wouldn’t have got far without Sam, would he, dad?’’

I won't gainsay him.

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alexeyr•

It's his first son Frodo who takes that name http://www.theonering.com/galleries/maps-calendars-genealogies/maps-calendars-genealogies/the-longfather-tree-of-master-samwise-j-r-r-tolkien

EDIT: Sam does get called this in appendices.

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rh_underhillanar kaluva tielyanna•

peeks in after hearing name

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squire_hyde•

Unexpected Tolkien beetlejuicing. That's probably a brand new sentence.

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Borboren•

It's also very important that many names are Patronyms. Frodo son of Drogo, Aragorn son of Arathorn, Gimli son of Gloin, Beren son of Barahir and on and on. The few characters that lack them almost stand out because of it. Gandalf for an obvious example, Sauron for another and Tom perhaps being the most enigmatic. Mortals have patronyms (or sometimes matronyms). This all barely scratches the surface.

This makes me wonder why only mortals - especially Men and Dwarves - were the only peoples that frequently used patronyms. Legolas is, I believe, never called "son of Thranduil". Also Hobbits would normally not call themselves "son of", they only did so in their dealings with other races. The same goes for Gondorians actually, who didn´t automatically call themselves "son of". Boromir didn´t introduce himself as "Boromir son of Denethor", neither did Faramir.

Could it be that Tolkien mirrored the (North) Men and the Dwarves to Northern Europeans (Scandinavia, the Netherlands), who had patronym naming conventions until Napoleonic times. I think only Iceland still has true patronym names. Many Dutch names for example still originate from old patronyms: Janssen (from Janszoon = John´s son, Johnson), Pieters (Peter´s (son)), Hendriks (Henry´s (son)), etc. etc.

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Sinhika•

Could it be that Tolkien mirrored the (North) Men and the Dwarves to Northern Europeans (Scandinavia, the Netherlands), who had patronym naming conventions until Napoleonic times.

The answer is 'Yes'. The Rohirrim were translated as Anglo-Saxon (Old English), and the Dalesmen were given Old Norse names/linguistics to show their relationship to the Rohirrim. (They were more closely related to each other than either was to Gondor, for example.) Dwarves take their "use-names" from local languages--the dwarves of Erebor and Moria all use Old Norse names (specifically, from or based on the roll-call of dwarves in the Eddas).

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Sinhika•

Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to...

I am reminded of Robert MacFarlane's book Landmarks, which is a collection of essays on English and Gaelic words for the landscapes and things found in them. One of the memorable points of an early chapter, on (I think) Scottish words for mountain and valley landforms is that landmark names are frequently a sort of roadmap; their meanings tell you that "this pass is traversable on foot" or "that stream is a slow-moving slough wandering through a peat bog", and so on.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

0
CupcakeFreedom•

They always always seem to just make sense. Each character’s name change seems to get them closer towards their true nature as they develop also. Melkor to Morgoth, Mairin to Sauron etc.

Look at young Estel, Thorongil, Strider, then Aragorn and finally King Elessar. You can tie each name to a stage of development in his life.

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squire_hyde•

It's remarkable how many things have multiple names or epithets and how often it's remarked. Almost at random, consider Hador Goldenhead, Galdor the Tall, Beleg Strongbow, and Elwë

In after days he became a king renowned, and his people were all the Eldar of Beleriand; the Sindar they were named, the Grey-elves, the Elves of the Twilight, and King Greymantle was he, Elu Thingol in the tongue of that land

or

Morwen bore a daughter also to Húrin, and she was named Urwen; but she was called Lalaith, which is Laughter, by all that knew her in her short life.

Weathertop was Amon Sûl, the Brandywine was Baranduin, Minas Morgul was Minas Ithil, Gollum was Smeagol, Rivendell is Imladris, Mirkwood was Greenwood the Great, Nienor and Niniel and so on and on.

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ExcellentWeatherOPShepard of the Trees•

The location names, I feel, have more to do with the theme of a general devolution in the land of Middle Earth. At one point it was all good, ruled over by elves and especially the Numinoreans. But as time progressed, and Arnor fell in the North, those old names were either forgotten or replaced by ones that better describe their new states.

Some of those names are also just the Westron translation vs the Elvish name. And some more are different because Mordor's conquests into its surrounding area.

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ExcellentWeatherOPShepard of the Trees•

That's an interesting point! I hadn't thought about all the characters who change their name when I was first making the post. Do you think their true name in this case would be their first name or their last one? The one they were given or the one they earned? Food for thought!

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to_thy_macintosh•

Possibly it would be all of them one after the other. Someone posted this quote of Treebeard above:

For one thing it would take a long while: my name is growing all the time, and I’ve lived a very long, long time; so my name is like a story. Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to...

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emthejedichic•

Something that’s always interested me is that the names we know of the Dwarves (by the Third Age at least) are outer names. Their inner, or true names, are kept so secret that they’re not even carved on their tombs. Names have power.

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ExcellentWeatherOPShepard of the Trees•

No it's true! The Petty Dwarves who show up in the Children of Hurin are shunned by the rest of the Dwarves in part for giving away their names freely, and that was way back in the first age.

Why do you think out of all races Dwarves are so particular about their names? They don't seem as spiritual and magical as many other races/characters in the Legendarium, yet Tolkien chooses them to be special in this regard. Perhaps it's something to do with their connection to Arda, but I always (somewhat stereotypically, I admit) saw them as more vain than that. They're already an outlier because they weren't made by Eru, and here they seem to have some deeper knowledge only shared by some of the eldest beings in Middle Earth. I wonder why!

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emthejedichic•

I think it’s just part of their secretive nature. Although the IRL influences for them seems to be Old Norse and Jewish cultures, maybe there’s a hint there?

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Drusiph•

This is an awesome post

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ParaUniverseExplorer•

This. This is why I love this sub! And to answer (or not answer) OP’s question: both. Treebeard has a point when wanting to stay in the shadows, like Strider. Regardless, legend is always tied firmly to namesake/symbology. So whether you like it or not, sometimes the “Strider” transforms into something else; something no one will forget.

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ExcellentWeatherOPShepard of the Trees•

There is definitely some ambiguity to it! Is it just the "true names" that have power, or do they all? Even nicknames like Strider or Treebeard have meaning and so carry some power within them. What makes them different then from any other title?

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ParaUniverseExplorer•

Life. Literally those who lived to remember it. Titles carry weight too obviously, but legend is born from good deeds.

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ExcellentWeatherOPShepard of the Trees•

Interesting. There seems to be a distinct difference in the power of an earned name and that of a given (or in this case "true" name). It seems the earned name is more outright powerful, carting the weight of it's accomplishments. The true name, on the other hand, (the one that Treebeard advises to keep secret) has some sort of philosophical and otherworldly power.

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ParaUniverseExplorer•

I think even then, those names’ power get their “strength” from their legend. Sometimes before they’re legend. This is a fun paradox and clearly, I have more reading to do.

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trahan94•

Great post. Names and naming are also an important motif in The Children of Húrin. Túrin changes his name, hoping to avoid the doom he feels is being forced on him.

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ExcellentWeatherOPShepard of the Trees•

Yeah I debated mentioning Turin! And in a comment I just made I pointed out Mîm, who was shunned by the rest of the Dwarves in part for giving his true name freely.

But what do you think about Turin and all his names? He seemed to think that his Doom was tied to his name and not himself while most notably Beleg told him his Doom was something innate. I've always thought Beleg was right in this argument, but if names carry with them such power and should be kept secret (as Treebeard says), that would give some merit to Túrin's worries.

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trahan94•

I think Beleg has the wise answer here, and the one that Túrin needed to hear, but I definitely understand Túrin’s desire to leave his past behind him. I mean, he does have practical reasons for not wanting his identity to be broadcast to every elf and orc, namely being the son of famous warrior. Unfortunately Túrin’s misfortune is just as much a result of his poor decisions as it is Morgoth’s curse, and in either case having multiple names does not seem to have protected him.

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DarrenGreyFëanor laughed as one fey•

The problem is that he never truly leaves the identity behind. He still gets involved in warfare and uses the black sword. He still acts out of rash pride. He still has Turin written all over him, whatever name he chooses to wear. If he had decided to change his behaviour and take on a new personality then he could have escaped his identity. But he couldn't do that - he was far too proud.

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Sinhika•

I've seen the argument that Turin's poor decisions are the result of (or the form of) Morgoth's curse on him.

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trahan94•

Well then we get into the fate v free will argument. Turin had many chances to listen to counsel and live a quiet, safe life in Doriath (or later in Nargothrond). But instead at every turn of the story he insists on putting himself in more danger than is necessary. He rejects the pardon of Thingol for the death of Saeros, he rejects Beleg's request for him to return, and he insists on building the bridge even though it would draw attention to the hidden Nargothrond.

No doubt much of Turin's misfortune was outside of his control - the deaths of his sister and Beleg come to mind. But was the curse controlling Turin's reaction to these tragic circumstances? I don't think I can go that far. If he was being controlled, how did he manage to slay the dragon in the end? Was this one final attempt to master his fate and turn his legacy into something positive?

It's a good discussion question for sure, and I don't know if there's a definitive answer.

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englandgreen•

“Many are my names in many countries: Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.”

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Sinhika•

Gandalf is much too polite to repeat the names Sauron has used for him, aye.

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wiles1992•

There's also the act of characters giving new names to people based on their deeds, as clearly they believe names contain power. Eomer, surprised at Aragorn's speed through the Mark, names him "Wingfoot" and Grima challenges Gandalf by calling him "Lathspell" ('bad news', the etymological inverse of "gospel" i.e. good news)

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CodexRegius•

In Arda, names mean power. And with your name you lose your power over yourself. Note how Nienor loses both under the dragon-spell, note also the importance of the fact that the Mouth has forgotten his name and that no one knows the original names of the Nazgûl.

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jayskew•

"Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?"

This is a basic meditation question in pretty much every mystical tradition. Are you what people call you? Are you your education, titles, experiences? Yes, in some sense, to all of that. Yet there is something that is still there witnessing all those things.

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traffke•

Huh, when i read "But you should not go telling just anybody. You'll be letting out your own right names if you're not careful." my mind went to the much more superficial thought that if the names Baggins and Shire were less widely known, the Nazgûl would have taken longer to find Frodo. But there are some interesting reflections here on how these different views on language can imply different views of the world itself.

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fuzzymcnuget•

Ok I feel the need to mention Bilbo's hesitation to tell Smaug his name in The Hobbit. Instead he kicks it Beowulf style and and calls himself "luckwearer and barrel rider. One who drowns his friends and raises them again." Also Smaug is the last of an old race n can't quite place the hobbits smell so why hide his name? Meanwhile 2 words had the Nazgul on Frodo's tail fast. Shire. Baggins.... Mayhap it was smart to conceal a name. The Isrealites believed using someone's name gave you power over them. So they respectfully didn't speak God's name and used nicknames out of respect. I know if someone calls out my full name (especially mom) they get my undivided if annoyed attention.

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