Post-Graduate Training Programs, White Coats, and "Midlevel Encroachment"

There is no shortage of outrage about midlevels these days, but I feel like there is a gross lack of nuance in most discussions about them. So I wanted to address the newest outrage on the medical subreddits that has cropped up recently over PA post-graduate training programs. The outrage seems to stem from a few areas, including use of the terms “residency” or “fellowship” to describe them, the pay (which in some cases is higher than physician residents), a concern about the impact on physician training (specifically that it causes competition that “steals procedures” from residents), and a fear that these programs are a sign of “midlevel encroachment”. I think most of these fears are unfounded, and the outrage is misguided, though in some cases understandable.

The timing of this outrage is interesting though. Post-graduate training programs for PAs have been around since the early 1970's (before many of those that are angry were even born). The first one was a surgical PA training program started by physicians at Montefiore Medical Center in 1971, which still exists to this day. These programs have used the same terminology since their inception many decades ago, terminology that was applied to them by physicians, not by PAs. Whether that terminology should be changed is a valid debate, but it's use is not without precedent.

The PA profession was designed on an apprenticeship model where a physician would take a new PA under their wing and provide training in their specialty for a period of years while allowing increased autonomy in practice as competence increased and trust developed; this is why PA training is shorter and doesn't require a residency. With more and more physicians employed by health systems, there are fewer and fewer physicians willing to provide this close training relationship. Post-grad training programs serve as a way for PAs to get standardized training in a given specialty, while also serving as a tool to recruit and retain well trained PAs by the hospital systems that fund them. Just like PA education is based on the medical model (which was designed by Dr. Eugene Stead based on his experience with fast-track physician training in WWII), it makes sense that PA post-graduate training would also be modeled after that of physicians.

For hospitals, post-grad PA training programs allow them to offset the training cost they would otherwise incur when hiring new PAs (who are less productive in their first year due to a steep learning curve) in exchange for providing a structured training program. It's also important to note that PAs are already certified and licensed upon starting these programs, meaning they can bill for their services throughout the entire training program, which further increases their value to the hospital.

These programs are not just glorified shadowing, as some have claimed. Many require the same schedule and call requirements as residents (including 24-hour coverage, and night and weekend call hours), and have the same expectations for PAs as they would a PGY-1 intern. Some also follow ACGME guidelines. The major difference, of course, is the end goal -- these programs are designed to increase the competency of PAs to work in specialties the way the profession was designed, on physician-led teams. They are not designed, nor intended, to train independent practitioners. Some other examples for those interested are the programs at Emory, NYU, Johns Hopkins, and Duke.

There have been numerous claims that these programs directly contribute to poorer education for residents through competition and "stealing" of procedures. However, I have seen no evidence of this presented, anecdotal or otherwise. A few attendings have posted on the threads the last few days that their residency had such programs, and none of them mentioned any issues with competition for procedures or any issues of poorer educational opportunities. If anyone has actual evidence to the contrary, I would be curious to see it. I would also love to hear more personal experiences from the physician perspective of those who have worked with PAs in these programs.

There are just over 300 total spots in PA residencies throughout the nation in any given year. This represents well under 1% the number of physician residents, and not all of these programs are co-located in hospitals with physician residencies. Therefore, the negative impact of these PA post-graduate training programs on resident training is over-exaggerated.

One thing about the recent outrage that I do understand and agree with is the pay discrepancy. I think PA residents should be paid at the same rate as physician residents. I also think that physician residents should be paid more for the hard work and long hours that they put in, regardless of whether there is PA post-grad training program at their hospital. I do know that many of these PA post-grad programs pay the same or less than physician residents though.

The last thing I wanted to address is the idea that PAs are trying to willfully mislead patients and steal unearned prestige. PA post-grad training is not some new, subversive ploy to misappropriate the "residency" terminology in order to blur the lines between PAs and physicians. As I showed above, the origin of these programs is almost as old as the profession itself. That they exist simply demonstrates the close history between the two professions; the PA profession was created by physicians too, after all, and this history is well documented.

This new outrage over these programs reminds me of another common "slam-dunk" that demonstrates the new, insidious degree of "midlevel encroachment": the wear of white coats by PAs. However, people must have missed the history lesson on that one too, because PAs have been wearing white coats since the very first class of PAs at Duke University in 1965. I don't particularly care for the white coat (and very rarely wear one), but just like PA residencies, white coats are not some new misappropriation that serves as a sign that PAs are trying blur the lines between the two professions.

PAs understand the significant training physicians have, and we do not claim equivalence of education or level of knowledge. The PA profession was designed to take on some of the duties physicians have, but PAs are not (nor do they claim to be) replacements for physicians; rather, they are skilled clinicians that complement the physician's role.

To close this novella, I have a great deal of respect for the knowledge base, depth of training, and experience of physicians. I don't agree with the push for independent practice of PAs or NPs either, but rather support the practice of PAs/NPs on physician-led teams. PAs receive solid training for what their role is designed for, but they shouldn't draw outrage for willingly taking a pay-cut (of 50% or more in some cases) to do additional advanced training to increase their competence and value to the team and to their patients.

Posted Feb 27, 2020, 4:07 AM UTC

9164
drsugarballs•

When I walk around my hospital I don’t know if I’m looking at a doc, NP, PA, RN, Charge RN, Lab tech or what....Everyone has a long white coat (except the medical students). Patients will tell me their doctor was just in...sir that was your nurse. Anyway....

In my residency program we had issues with NPs getting procedures over Residents. It was so bad that several residents had to be placed on call list just to get the min needed to complete the program.

86
MEANINGLESS_NUMBERSMD - Peds/Neo•

several residents had to be placed on call list just to get the min needed to complete the program.

My program did this. They couldn’t put the NPs on call because they collectively refused. So the residents got shat on again.

19
Multi-prof•

NP’s have backing of nurses union, please keep that in mind. PA’s have no such backing which means, as stated by hypercidil above, PA’s tend to have the exact same hours and call as med students and residents. Also, on a little different note, it was and has been NP’s who push for independence. So much that PA’s, who had always, and still do, feel like physicians should lead team, are loosing jobs. If they don’t start getting more independence, they will be hurting as a profession in the future. Sadly, physician groups do their best to hold back the APP’s (PA’s) who have best education and training in the medical model, designed by physicians. PAs are trying to get optimal team practice in each state. That means physicians would not be required or responsible if they make a mistake. That means if a PA is sued a physician would not necessarily also be sued. That means the PA has freedom based on what the physician group or the hospital feels that they are able to do. But they will not be allowed to practice Independently.

11
HypercidalOPPA-C•

When I walk around my hospital I don’t know if I’m looking at a doc, NP, PA, RN, Charge RN, Lab tech or what....Everyone has a long white coat (except the medical students)

Don't get me wrong, I do see an issue with this. My goal was simply to show that PAs wearing them is not some recent phenomenon indicative of a desire to "blur the lines", as is so often asserted, but rather began at the conception of the profession.

Like I mentioned, I don't care for the white coat personally, and am happy to just wear scrubs. I also think those large hang-tags for badges that outline an individual's role helps prevent confusion, and should be employed more widely.

16
livinglavidajudokaMSN, RN - ER•

Where I work nurses all wear a distinct color of scrubs, wear a name badge with the word "nurse" on it literally four times, and have a big bright blue "REGISTERED NURSE" badge underlaid behind our ID. When I walk into a room I say "hey I'm livinglavida, I'm a nurse here, etc."

I still get called a doctor nearly every day. Yes, I'm a dude. Sometimes I'll correct them and they'll continue to call me a doctor. There is no helping some people.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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drsugarballs•

Agree.

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lovemypuppers23•

Sounds like an issue with your hospital then. Where I work, everyone wears different colored scrubs and everyone (yes, all nurses) introduce themselves and their role. I have NEVER seen a lab tech or a nurse wear a white lab coat.

4
platon20MD - pediatrics•

What color do the MDs wear and what color does the NP wear?

Oh wait, let me guess they both wear the same color. Because if they don't it's inevitable that the NPs start complaining that they don't get to wear the black scrubs like the cool doctors do.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

-5
drsugarballs•

No no. This is NPs getting the procedures over residents. The NPs are employed. Not students. They needed to be trained and were given priority over residents trainings.

7
NysozDO - General Surgery•

The vocal few are trying to change things for both NPs and PAs for complete autonomy. By far the majority of NPs and PAs work just fine in their roles.

The latest outrage lies in the fact that PAs are getting paid more than medical residents at some institutions while learning the same things with possibly better schedules. It’s not over valuing PAs but under valuing medical residents. The problem lies in the fact that money makes the world go round. Health care in the US is already strained/unsustainable without any real good proposals that makes everyone happy.

When I think of The good NPs and PAs I’ve worked with, I kinda view them as pgy-2ish to 4ish in perpetuity on average. With that said I’ve met amazing NPs and PAs that I would trust more than terrible MDs/DOs.

As for the procedures thing, anecdotally we did have interns and NPs/PAs “competing” over icu procedures but there were more than enough to meet quotas. But more procedures will generally get most anyone more competent.

63
HypercidalOPPA-C•

The latest outrage lies in the fact that PAs are getting paid more than medical residents at some institutions while learning the same things with possibly better schedules. It’s not over valuing PAs but under valuing medical residents.

I completely agree, and I do understand why that's a point of anger. Unfortunately, I think it comes down to the fact that PAs aren't required to do a residency, while physicians are; therefore, hospitals can get away with paying residents less but may feel the need to pay PAs doing post-grad training more since they could otherwise just start working for double the pay.

Like I mentioned though, I am all for residents getting paid more, period. I am also in support of equalizing pay for PAs doing post-graduate training with that of residents; I think the training is valuable for PAs regardless, but I don't think they should be valued more (monetarily) than residents in the same hospital.

Yea in terms of procedures, I was asking more about experiences with competition between PAs in a post-graduate program that is co-located with a physician residency. In more general terms, I don't think PAs should get preference over residents who haven't met their numbers for a given procedure; priority should be given to residents that need them to graduate. Outside of that situation (i.e. both parties have met their numbers but just want additional practice), I think there should be a system of compromise though. This is one of the many reasons why it's so important to try to cut down on the vitriol that's so common on here and foster positive working relationships between PAs and the physicians they work with (including, of course, residents).

11
HotSteakHospital Pharmacist•

Unfortunately, I think it comes down to the fact that PAs aren't required to do a residency, while physicians are; therefore, hospitals can get away with paying residents less but may feel the need to pay PAs doing post-grad training more since they could otherwise just start working for double the pay.

Right, it's relatively simple economics. The medical residents get treated like crap because they're captives of the system in a way that PA residents are not. I get that that is frustrating but it's in no way the PA's or PA residents' fault. And I've seen some anger directed that way most unfairly.

31
Sock_puppet09RN•

We've had a real issue with this in our NICU. I work at a fairly large community hospital that's a level 3B, so we get some really sick kiddos (23 week microprems, cooling, iNO).

There have been a few docs we've hired recently that are not long out of fellowship at academic centers that also had NNPs. I guess some of those places the NP's are doing the bulk of the procedures. We do not have NPs, so docs have to do a lot of procedures themselves, including intubations (we have a couple RTs who are checked off, but not many), PICCs, art sticks (RNs cannot do these in our state), etc. We have a lot of docs on staff. At least 3 have been let go, because they have been utterly unable to intubate, which is a absolutely critical skill. From what I've heard at their previous hospitals, NPs did most of that, so they didn't get the necessary skills down.

I can't speak for the adult world, but lots of these residents aren't going to stay at giant academic centers where they're managing the team providing care. They're going to go out in the community and be expected to be able to do these procedures without backup. It's a disservice to the residents/fellows to deprive them of procedures, and it's a real danger to those out in the community who will eventually be relying on these docs to perform them.

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AM43386PAC in Critical Care •

Critical care attendings being unable to perform critical care procedures is unnerving, but not specific to people who have trained with PA/NP centers. I have several attendings who don't intubate, place chest tubes etc.and did not train in places where midlevels took these procedures. it's because these procedures were done by residents of other specialties (i.e. anesthesia, surgery). not getting enough procedures during training is a real problem, but I don't think it's fair to blame midlevels for this in many cases.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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Sock_puppet09RN•

You make a great point. And really, it’s not midlevels’ fault-they are just doing their job. The issue is hospitals and residency/fellowship programs not prioritizing their trainees and ensuring they obtain the necessary skills before they graduate. Not having ever worked at a teaching hospital like that, I can’t say why it happens.

9
piece_o_f_trash•

I really think NICU should be an attending and NNP only zone (and every NICU should have NNPs). No residents allowed until they reach fellowship. I work in lower level management and the amount of times I have to walk down on my bosses orders to the NICU and explain so kindly to the attending and residents that the parents do not want any residents touching their child and the attending has to actually do his or her job.

The amount of times I've had some mama bear about to jump over my desk and fuck me up over her child makes me glad I never went into pediatrics.

Why do they have junior residents rotating in NICU anyway? How are they supposed to learn neonatology when they haven't even started learning Pediatrics yet?

I will say I have never had this problem regarding NNPs, All the parents seem to love them. Probably because they all have lots of experience as a NICU nurse first.

-11
DeltaWave120•

This is a foolish comment, to be frank. You seem to not understand general medical education in the US. Which makes sense because you state you’re in management. Which is unironically the real issue with these debates we’ve been having here.

16
coffeecatsyarnmd pgy1•

How are they supposed to learn neonatology when they haven't even started learning Pediatrics yet?

How is an NP supposed to learn neonatology when they don't learn peds? This entire comment makes no sense.

6
HypercidalOPPA-C•

Yea I don't agree with this, parents being dicks is not an excuse to exclude residents. Residents need to learn, that's what they're there for.

I think a lot of patients (and parents of patients) don't understand the medical education system, and I've found that taking a couple minutes to explain it to them will sometimes get them to change their mind; it's worth a shot at least. Parents should be told that junior residents take care of their babies in direct collaboration with an attending physician overseeing all care. They should be told that if they want doctors to be competent to take care of them and their kids, this is how the system works to build that competence. If the parent still refuses, then fine, but there shouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction to take a resident off a case as soon as a patient asks without even attempting to explain why residents are there.

4
HypercidalOPPA-C•

Starter Comment:

I have noticed a large increase in the number of posts and the level of outrage among medical students, residents, and (to a lesser extent) attending physicians against "midlevels" these days. While valid points are sometimes made, I see a great deal of misunderstanding, misinformation, and outright falsehoods being spread about PAs on r/medicine, r/residency, and r/medicalschool. I have often tried to take the time to write reasoned and evidence-based responses to correct some of these misunderstandings, but it's getting hard to keep up with the sheer number of posts being created every day. I also find that the karma voting system silences comments that are simply unpopular (particularly on r/residency and r/medicalschool), even if they present a valid, evidence-based viewpoint.

So I wanted to address the newest outrage on the medical subreddits over PA residencies, and explain to a wider audience some of the history behind PA post-graduate training that will hopefully allow people to think about this issue in a more nuanced way.

Edited to add: Instead of just down voting the post, I would love to hear reasoned arguments about the concerns with these programs, and how they can be resolved.

34
DumbFuckMDM2•

I will say that I was completely unaware of the existence of these programs stretching back so many decades. I learned something new, thanks for sharing!

12
vbwrgMD•

I haven't hired NPs, but I've had many PAs and they've been great. As I've gotten older and sicker and less able to work 60 hour weeks, they've really stepped up. But it's still a collaboratory/supervisory model.

My only issue with MLPs is when they're thrown into situations they're not remotely prepared for and it affects patient care. This is largely the fault, IMO, of those hiring them (and those going into independent practice without adequate preparation). For example, in the rural area where I practice just a little bit, the HIV clinic that serves the entire Medicaid population hired a straight-out-of-school NP with no HIV or ID training as their sole provider. To be fair, the retiring MD she replaced was also pretty bad, but I've seen a number of her patients and been unimpressed with the care they're getting. When I've called her, though, she's been incredibly gracious and grateful for various corrections - and she'll keep me on the line for 40 minutes with more questions. That tells me that she's an eager learner and wants to do a good job, but her employer has put her in an impossible situation where she's not get the training she needs.

I'm much less worried about mid-level encroachment than I am about the business model of medicine in general. The shift from a care model to a business model has led to lower costs/higher profits being prioritized at patient expense. The hiring of insufficiently prepared MLPs, IMO, is more of a symptom of this problem than a cause.

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HypercidalOPPA-C•

I appreciate you sharing your perspective and experience on this topic. I wish more physicians that worked closely with PAs like yourself would speak up more on here; instead, most comments are second-hand stories or one-off anecdotes by people who have limited day-to-day contact with midlevels.

I agree with the collaboration/supervision model, that's how the PA profession was designed to function, and it works quite well. While it's not perfect, PA training is rigorous and standardized, but it just isn't designed to train independent practitioners. Neither is NP training, and I have much bigger concerns with the quality of NP education recently.

Can you comment more about the shift in the business model of medicine? What kind of implications do you think this has for where the medicine will be in 10 or 20 years? I have done some reading on the topic, and it concerns me as well. Private practice has become less and less viable, and more and more physicians are employees of hospital systems that are growing larger and larger.

12
piece_o_f_trash•

You can't blame that NP. It doesn't matter if she's in an Independent or supervised state, her boss (the people who hired her even in an independent state) didn't provide her with adequate onboarding and on the job training.

Most new grad NPs who start in any field besides FM or General outpatient peds get about 90 to 180 days of mentorship/OTJ learning. Some FM and Gen peds jobs give 30-90 days. I think urgent care is the worst with NPs (including brand new grads) getting a 3 or 4 shifts to shadow an experienced NP or MD. But it's an extremely rare occurrence for NPs to just be thrown into practice on the first day (even in independent states).

Are you in an independent or supervised state? I'm just curious because plenty of supervised states are set up where you can just throw an NP into practice and the supervising MD only has to see them in person once every 30 or 90 days and only has to cosign 3% of charts.

-2
Johnny_cakes786Edit Your Own Here•

In the last few days, I have seen multiple comments that express fear of defending one's profession, fear of expressing a dissenting opinion, fear while making a post that casually mentions midlevels without even addressing scope, talk of removing midlevel flair to avoid automatic downvotes... all because of the overwhelming negativity we have all seen lately.

I even had a mod message me and ask me not to engage a user who has a history of stirring the pot (while acknowledging that I had violated no rules whatsoever). It seems to me that everyone is on eggshells and frankly, the sub is worse for it.

20
KingPrudienMD•

It’s simple. If midlevels want autonomy, there is a predetermined path to get there. This isn’t about defending a profession. It’s about overall safety. Tell me things are just as safe with N.P. practicing independently compared to MD/DO. You will be lying to yourself.

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Johnny_cakes786Edit Your Own Here•

I do not support independent midlevel practice. Nor do I support the unprofessional manner in which some users in this sub express their disapproval of midlevels.

In my 20 years experience, I have never witnessed a physician disparage an entire level of provider the way we see medical students and resident doing in this sub.

You'd be lying to yourself if you said that the discussion has remained factual, professional and fairly balanced.

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Shenaniganz08MD Pediatrics - USA•

I do not support independent midlevel practice. Nor do I support the unprofessional manner in which some users in this sub express their disapproval of midlevels.

In my 20 years experience, I have never witnessed a physician disparage an entire level of provider the way we see medical students and resident doing in this sub.

I agree with both of these statements 100%. This is the reason why a lot of these threads are so heavily moderated. If you look at the vitrol most of the hatred is coming from med students and residents. If you think this subreddit is bad, go check out r/Residency .

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Johnny_cakes786Edit Your Own Here•

Wow yeah I took peek there and r/ medschool. I had a feeling that a lot of this was brigading from other subs and it looks like that's a possibility.

2
coffeecatsyarnmd pgy1•

In my 20 years experience, I have never witnessed a physician disparage an entire level of provider the way we see medical students and resident doing in this sub.

It's because you're not part of these conversations. They happen behind closed doors every day. I heard it in medical school at the three different hospitals I rotated at, and I hear it often now. But it's said very carefully to specific groups of people.

-3†
Johnny_cakes786Edit Your Own Here•

it's said very carefully to specific groups of people

I'm sure it's talked about among residents and students, sure.

I am the very person who addresses concerns about NPs at my practice because part of my job is nurse (incl. NP) management. So when a MLP makes a mistake, I hear about it, discuss it with their supervisory MD, and offer them additional ed resources. Sometimes it's their supervisory MD who reaches out to me with a request to redirect or offer ed. Even when a physician is at their most annoyed, most frustrated, they do not speak to or about MLPs in the manner some do here. They're valued members of the team.

ETA: Our practice was just bought out by the physicians who have worked here for 9 years. They had the opportunity to decide whether MLP would stay or go. They hired 2 more.

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KingPrudienMD•

Everyone should stay in their lane and this entire conversation would not exist.

-5†
Johnny_cakes786Edit Your Own Here•

I'm just gonna leave this quote from KingPrudien right here.

I feel slightly incompetent compared to more seasoned midlevels who have been working for years and years in different areas of medicine

https://www.reddit.com/r/Residency/comments/de904j/serious_discussion_about_residents_vs_midlevels/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

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Damn_Dog_InappropesCNA/Fecal Engineer/SMA/Chem Lab Tech 3•

He's not talking about midlevel encroachment, he's talking about the negativity in this subreddit about the topic.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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Johnny_cakes786Edit Your Own Here•

Agreed. It would be great to have a megathread like the mods have created for COV19 and politics. I think they're nervous about being accused of censorship and bias (again), so they probably won't. Ironically, by asking users not to engage with those stirring the pot, they are already censoring. It's a shame. This used to be my favorite sub.

6
RCAG72•

Damn I knew these PA residencies had been around for a long time, didn't realize it was almost 50 years though. There's so few of them most people don't even know they're a thing (well, they didn't before like 3 days ago).

I think people are most pissed about the independent practice stuff, and these other things have probably just been amplified because of it. It's funny that PAs are catching so much flak these days though; their training is pretty strong, and they tend to know their place on the team and do good work. NPs are the ones pushing hardest for independence, and their education is definitely weaker than PAs.

16
BangxYourexDeadAdvanced EMT•

and their education is definitely weaker than PAs.

Because they learned all they need to know working a year as a floor nurse! ^/s

2†
kurtist04•

I agree with many of your points, but from what I see the core issues are these :

  • because there is a shortage of physicians in many areas there is a greater push for more autonomy from mid levels and legislators. But like you discussed that was never the purpose of the profession in the first place. Mid levels are there to share the load, not take over on their own.

  • anecdotal: Because there is a shortage of physicians and they are expected to carry a greater and greater patient load, attendings who are supposed to be teaching are pushing their residents and med students off to be taught by mid levels. There was a thread about this on the residency or medical school subreddit not too long ago. This, understandably, is upsetting to those students and residents. I don't think I've seen people complain about having to compete with mid levels, but having to be taught by them when they should be working with attendings or residents.

  • pay. Like you already said, Resident pay is terrible for someone with 8+ years of higher education. With the hours residents are expected to put in its less than minimum wage. The fact that some mid level residents with less training get paid more just sucks.

When it comes to the names of programs, I don't understand the outrage. Who cares? But when mid levels want the same autonomy as a dr and the same pay as a dr, then maybe they should have gone to medical school.

Maybe a good compromise would be that after a certain amount of time working with a physician if a mid level can pass the same board exams in their field they can start working autonomously? I dunno, just throwing out ideas. Drs are getting swamped, and we do need support, so we really need to have amiable relationships with each other. I don't like all this arguing and mud slinging.

Also, I'm in med school still, second year, so if I'm wrong about anything I said please let me know.

13
HypercidalOPPA-C•

I think these are valid concerns.

As to your first point, one thing I would like to reinforce is my call for more nuance in these discussions. An example of this is use of the word "midlevel"; not because it's offensive (don't really care), but because it fails to draw a distinction between PAs and NPs. The training, philosophy, and origins of the two professions are quite different, even if they function in similar roles day to day. The NP national organizations tend to be the ones most forcefully pushing the issue of independent practice, which I am opposed to.

I do understand the concern about training. I've seen some med students complain that they had a poor rotation experience because of that, but I've also seen a number of med students & residents say they learned procedural skills from a PA better than the attending. Totally anecdotal, of course, and I know that doesn't really help, but unfortunately I don't have a good answer for that one. If med students get put with PAs or NPs who are providing a poor training environment, I would definitely raise that concern with the school. Until then, keep an open mind and learn what you can from them.

We're in agreement about the pay. Residents are paid shit, and should be paid more. They shouldn't make less than a PA doing post-grad training.

I've heard compromises like that, and I do like the idea of some system of allowing midlevels to prove their competence through a standardized process. LECOM's PA-DO bridge program is one option that currently exists, but that only cuts off one year, and there are already like 17 three-year programs anyone can do, so it seems like there could be a better way.

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gaseous_memesAnaesthesia•

One thing about the recent outrage that I do understand and agree with is the pay discrepancy. I think PA residents should be paid at the same rate as physician residents.

I think every physician would disagree.

8
coffeecatsyarnmd pgy1•

I think there are a lot of nuanced things that you as a non-physician may not notice.

"There have been numerous claims that these programs directly contribute to poorer education for residents through competition and "stealing" of procedures. However, I have seen no evidence of this presented, anecdotal or otherwise. A few attendings have posted on the threads the last few days that their residency had such programs, and none of them mentioned any issues with competition for procedures or any issues of poorer educational opportunities." I see this every day in my ED when the midlevel 'fellow' gets a procedure over the EM resident. It's one thing if it's the fellow's patient, but sometimes it's an off service psych or TY resident who has no desire to do a chest tube or central line or whatever, and the fellow gets it over the EM intern. And we may disagree, but I believe first dibs should go to the EM resident. This fellowship is new at this program, and it's making people slightly regret coming here. We generally have a lot/plenty of procedures to go around, but there's never been a competition with midlevel fellows before (who work much less than we do).

Secondly, lately with the advent of social media, the anti doctor rhetoric has exploded. Everyday on my recommended instagram feed there are tons of posts by PAs and NPs and students who claim the "brain of a doctor/heart of a nurse" kind of thing and state much of the following: "just like med school/half the time," "same job as doctors," "we do the same as doctors," "we have better results," "we are smarter/more caring/more compassionate/better in some other way than doctors." This is across all social media. If a physician or med student makes any sort of comment that is negative towards non-doctors, we get called the assholes/greedy/only in it for the money/doesn't actually care about pts/doesn't actually take care of pts at bedside/only types on a computer/is stupid/etc. It gets really really old.

Then you have the overseeing organizations who have no desire to keep PAs/NPs within an appropriate scope. I have seen DNPs introduce themselves as Dr. Firstname without saying they're an NP, or a PA who gets called Dr. and does not correct a patient, and I have seen this multiple times. And the thing is, I'm not the only one.

It just often feels like we as physicians have no recourse. We can't speak up for ourselves or we're assholes. Then to be told that our feelings aren't even valid because your anecdotal evidence states otherwise. There can be a place for all of us, but it seems as though this will all come to a head, and I think there will be a professional divide, especially with this current generation of residents: sky high debt coupled with sky high burnout and not being able to see the promised land of medicine that once was.

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HypercidalOPPA-C•

I see this every day in my ED when the midlevel 'fellow' gets a procedure over the EM resident. It's one thing if it's the fellow's patient, but sometimes it's an off service psych or TY resident who has no desire to do a chest tube or central line or whatever, and the fellow gets it over the EM intern. And we may disagree, but I believe first dibs should go to the EM resident. This fellowship is new at this program, and it's making people slightly regret coming here. We generally have a lot/plenty of procedures to go around, but there's never been a competition with midlevel fellows before (who work much less than we do).

Once again, these are totally valid concerns. I think if it's the PA fellow's patient, it should be their procedure. If it's not their patient, I think there should be some system of compromise, but I do agree that EM residents should be primary. I also think PAs doing post-grad training should work the same number of hours as residents, and shouldn't get paid more than them; that only breeds resentment and fails to foster a team-like atmosphere.

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Secondly, lately with the advent of social media, the anti doctor rhetoric has exploded. Everyday on my recommended instagram feed there are tons of posts by PAs and NPs and students who claim the "brain of a doctor/heart of a nurse" kind of thing and state much of the following: "just like med school/half the time," "same job as doctors," "we do the same as doctors," "we have better results," "we are smarter/more caring/more compassionate/better in some other way than doctors."

Unfortunately, as often as you see anti-doctor rhetoric, I see anti-midlevel rhetoric; it's pervasive now on the medical subreddits. And it's disheartening to those who truly do value and respect the physicians they work with.

Both types of rhetoric are counterproductive and harmful to what should be a close working relationship between PAs and physicians. I think I've seen it happen more with NPs, but I have definitely had to correct the occasional PA student making comments about "med school in half the time"; I find it's usually students early in their education that say that kind of stuff though, and their tune changes as they get further along.

People that post quotes like those you mentioned have an inferiority complex and don't know what the hell they're talking about. When I see PAs talk like that, I correct them.

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Then you have the overseeing organizations who have no desire to keep PAs/NPs within an appropriate scope. I have seen DNPs introduce themselves as Dr. Firstname without saying they're an NP, or a PA who gets called Dr. and does not correct a patient, and I have seen this multiple times. And the thing is, I'm not the only one.

Yea DNPs and PAs with doctorates shouldn't call themselves doctor in a clinical setting. Totally agree with that. As to the issue of not correcting patients, that's wrong if they never identified their role properly in the first place. Unfortunately, sometimes you can introduce yourself properly, take time to explain that you're a PA and what that means, and they'll still call you doctor, and then it becomes an issue of picking your battles when time is short. I agree that proper introduction and role identification is important though.

As to your last point, the growing divide and proliferation of negative rhetoric is what worries me. As I mentioned in my original post, I respect the education and knowledge of physicians, and simply ask for some level of respect in return. I do understand the frustration med students & resident have with the debt, as well as the abuse and trial by fire that residency is. I just want you guys to take the time and try to see things from my perspective too before getting all up in arms, which is why I wrote this post.

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Shenaniganz08MD Pediatrics - USA•

as residents (including 24-hour coverage, and night and weekend call hours), and have the same expectations for PAs as they would a PGY-1 intern

Sorry but that is absolutely terrifying.

A 1st year surgery intern would have had 3 years of general medical education and a 4th year filled with surgical sub-I and electives. And you are telling me someone who just completed a 2 year PA program with less knowledge in anatomy and surgery is expected to have the same responsibilities ???

I pretty much agree with everything else you said. Just want to remind you that all of this mess is the fault of militant NPs and lobbying groups. We understand that PAs have been caught in the crossfire.

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HypercidalOPPA-C•

I haven't done one of these programs, so I am simply going off of those I have talked to who have, and the program websites describing the role expected of PAs in the program; therefore, I may not be entirely correct in my assessment.

As to your concern about patient safety though, I assume most programs take a stance like that of the Johns Hopkins surgical resideny, where there is close supervision on each service (they explain in the link provided how supervision works for their program).

As to your point about 1st year surgical interns having more education, that is, of course, true. However, while I don't know the background of those accepted into these PA post-grad programs, I was able to complete 4 surgical rotations during PA school (plus my 8 other rotations), each of which included call, rounding and presenting A&Ps to attendings, writing notes, 1st assisting in the OR, etc.

Not to say this would put me on par with med students doing multiple subIs and surgical electives, but I think it would allow me to start additional training where I would still have close supervision while learning to take care of patients. Like I mentioned, these programs have been around for a long time, and they have somehow been working safely for decades.

Edited to add: I have read your comments on these various threads, and I appreciate your reasoned and measured responses.

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Shenaniganz08MD Pediatrics - USA•

Take me personally. I HONORED my surgery rotation as an MS3 and I know that I would have made a terrible PGY-1 surgery intern, because unlike everyone else I didn't do 4th year surgery sub-Is. I know there is supervision, but there really should be more requirements for PAs for these programs where they are taking 24 hour and weekend calls similar to a PGY-1 surgery intern.

Edited to add: I have read your comments on these various threads, and I appreciate your reasoned and measured responses.

I appreciate it! I am pro PA an NP that practice within the scope of their training. but I am against anyone, that includes MDS, from practicing independently without completing a structured residency program and standardized testing

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RAJonasson•

A 1st year surgery intern would have had 3 years of general medical education and a 4th year filled with surgical sub-I and electives. And you are telling me someone who just completed a 2 year PA program with less knowledge in anatomy and surgery is expected to have the same responsibilities ???

Most PA students do human anatomy & physiology in undergrad and gross anatomy with cadaver dissection in PA school. Plus, the majority of them came from a patient care field, so they had some form of anatomy & physiology then also.

They also have around 6 months of surgical didactic, a minimum of 4-8 weeks of surgery clinicals, then depending on the electives- could have up to 20 weeks of surgery based clinicals in the average program.

They are required to test out of every rotation.

There’s debate whether 4th year is really worth it, considering step 2, traveling to interviews, etc.

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/med-school-3-years-future-medical-education

If medical school were to go to 3 years, it’s only 9 months longer than the average PA program (27 months). There are plenty of 36 month PA programs.

The longest PA program is 48 months (yes, 4 years...) and is at Drexel.

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DBHT14•

Think more of jobs only looking for new grads with experience already, but obviously its harder to get the experience if no one is hiring without any!

So for some its a damned if you do, damned if you dont situation. Its less pay for a foot in the door of a specialty you want to be in, but less than you could make elsewhere, and a way to move on later with a more robust resume if nothing else. But at the same time the relatively small number of people in the spots every year means they sorta fly under the radar a lot.

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sanj91MD•

Your argument against all of our concerns about PA training programs (which you actually summarized very succinctly) is that “this is how it’s always been”? That doesn’t make it right. I’ve trained at hospitals with PAs before but never one with a PA training program. So it was news to me when I first found out that they are referring to these training programs as “residencies”. Just because I wasn’t born before the first PA training program started and didn’t encounter one until recently doesn’t mean that I can’t be outraged now by some of their policies. I’d love to see Harvey Weinstein’s lawyer stand up and say “Well your Honor this behaviour has been going on for longer than some of the defendants have been alive and it wasn’t widely known until recently so these complaints have no merit.”

If you have a good reason why PAs should refer to their training programs as residencies, why they should wear white coats, why they should train at the same hospitals as medical residents...I’m all ears. I just don’t accept the frequent counterargument I hear from some midlevels “that this has been going on for 50 years.” Sorry it took us so long to notice but we have certainly noticed now.

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ChayossMODMB BChir - A&E/Anaesthetics/Critical Care•

Attack the argument, not the person, please.

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