Source
r/atheism•
Shellfishisasin

Fight!: Morals of Atheists vs. Christians

I hear the debate of morals way too often. But though Atheist morals are questioned for their existence, I have never seen Christians truthfully questioned where theirs come from. They speak of God creating their morals, so does this mean they are simply doing what they are told? They do not ACTUALLY help a poor man, but instead do it because their God says it is the right thing to do? I was watching Carl Sagan and he a made a point by saying our meaning is to give all man meaning. We create our own reasons to live and our own morals. Atheists create their morals for this sole purpose, most will help others because they attempt to give their life, as it is relative to our world, meaning. They do it to give others' lives meaning. But if a Christian does it simply for a God, than do their morals merit them good? Are they good people if they don't make their own morals? If a master told a slave to help a man, does the slave do it because he is a good person? Or that the master ordered him to do so? The free man will tell himself "I want to help this man" because HE wants to, and his help will ensue. It is not only actions that make a man good, but his intentions as well. Your thoughts?

Posted Feb 2, 2011, 8:47 PM UTC

06
JosiahJohnson•

"Now, you have free will Toby, but I want you to go help that man. And if you don't, I'll fucking whip you."

2
[deleted]•

Wow, a lot of fun and interesting things to think about. I am at work and trying to write this response while making sure co-workers don't see me slacking off. I think a lot of what I said may not be written in the most thought out fashion.

They speak of God creating their morals

Christians believe that God IS their moral. Since God is Spirit. Jesus came to say that God does not want christians to follow orders with just actions, but follow with their hearts.

They do not ACTUALLY help a poor man, but instead do it because their God says it is the right thing to do?

True, God says it is the right thing to do because His commandment is to LOVE. Love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus told a relevant story about a good samaritan. Where a clergyman does not help the man in need because of his legalism and ignores the commandment to love his neighbors.

The free man will tell himself "I want to help this man" because HE wants to, and his help will ensue.

This is what the good samaritan did.

most [Atheists] will help others because they attempt to give their life, as it is relative to our world, meaning. They do it to give others' lives meaning.

Is this possible without love?

Are they good people if they don't make their own morals?

Christians believe that there are two root sources of their thoughts that trigger action. That of the Spirit and that of the Flesh. The source of the Spirit is God, the source of the flesh is our natural instincts and logic. The spirit and the flesh oppose each other. If a person creates their own morals, I think if the moral comes from Spirit, it will be different than that of the flesh.

For example, a moral deriving from Spirit will say, "Turn the other cheek" a moral deriving from the flesh says, "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth." The fleshly moral is logical and easily understood, while the spiritual moral cannot be understood with just logic.

*BTW, I am a christian, but am fascinated by the posts about atheism. I respect both christians and atheists who follow what they believe with their heart. I don't respect people who go to church who don't truly believe in Jesus' words but rather go to church to put up a facade that they are good people.

1
spaceghoti•

Christians believe that God IS their moral. Since God is Spirit. Jesus came to say that God does not want christians to follow orders with just actions, but follow with their hearts.

A couple of things here. The first and most obvious is that the existence of the Christian god is not given. To claim that your morals come from your god is the equivalent of saying my morals come from the Flying Spaghetti Monster. What are the morals of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? For that matter, what are the morals of the Christian god? We don't really know, especially since the holy scriptures aren't infallible and are easily confused. So in the end, all we can do is make our own judgment call, which is the second point. When you really get down to it, few Christians agree with each other on the morals that their god really wants them to follow. Dancing? Sex? Women's rights? Opinions are as varied among the faithful as they are among other faiths or those without faith.

True, God says it is the right thing to do because His commandment is to LOVE. Love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus told a relevant story about a good samaritan. Where a clergyman does not help the man in need because of his legalism and ignores the commandment to love his neighbors.

It strikes many of us that this is perhaps the most ignored commandment in all of Christendom. Ghandi put it best: "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

It's a lovely ideal, but so rarely demonstrated. It is also one of the things atheists like to point out: we don't see the morality in being good because an authority figure said so.

Is this possible without love?

Do you really want to imply that atheists are incapable of loving their fellow man? That when we're altruistic or just plain nice to people, we expect rewards?

Christians believe that there are two root sources of their thoughts that trigger action. That of the Spirit and that of the Flesh.

This again presupposes that the Spirit is a given. It is not. We are emotional as well as physical creatures. Altruism is programmed into us because it's a winning strategy: we are stronger together than we are alone. Not because some invisible, intangible god says so, but because it works. The existence of Spirit may be metaphorical for our emotional selves, but as a discrete aspect of human existence it can't be observed, measured or in any way verified outside of our imagination.

Human existence isn't all about logic, but you can't just wave your hand and declare that religious beliefs are ineffable. We must bring logic to the table when discussing human morals, because without it we get things like "sex before marriage is sinful" and "my daughter has dishonored my family and must die."

People have the right to believe whatever they want to believe, but if they take it so far as to declare that anyone who disagrees is doomed to an eternity of torture, that just makes them dicks. Morality is not the exclusive domain of the religious, it is a universal human trait, even if we disagree on what constitutes good morals.

1
[deleted]•

Do you really want to imply that atheists are incapable of loving their fellow man? That when we're altruistic or just plain nice to people, we expect rewards?

No, I'm saying there is love behind it.

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spaceghoti•

If you say so.

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dumnezeroIrreligious•

I'm sorry, but I'm a peaceful person. I don't fight. :)

(atheist)

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