I made an in depth video detailing why I think the normal end of Heaven's Feel is superior to the true end!
Posted Apr 2, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC
831
So I watched it, Sakura in the normal ending doesn't really have anything over true ending Sakura, she living without Shirou is not enough, her reason to live is to not waste what Shirou did, Shirou is pretty much still her reason to live, she stays there and doesn't leave the house never, she plants a flower each year that is it. In the true end she has a life beyond Shirou or Rin and I feel people just overlook it for some reason, she is making friends and a live for herself, sure she is still super dependant on Shirou, but it would be hard to expect something different in one year.Another thing, being independent is overrated, yes it sure its not healthy to just depend in Shirou but again she is making progress slow but sure, she talks and cares about things other than Shirou, and needing a person is not wrong, there's hope she becomes better and grows as a person, in the normal ending we already know what happened in her life. She making progress with Shirou there is better than she mourning Shirou forever and living without him because there's no other option.
Shirou dying was foreshadowed as much as Illya hijacking his sacrifice, everything was about that, her arc Is that, it goes with a central theme, the scapegoat. Illya is the scapegoat, but willingly, she takes the burden from Shirou and Sakura, takes responsibility for them and for her family. Her closing the Grail is strong with the themes. There's another scapegoats you may know them, Sakura and Angra. Opossed to Illya and Shirou they are unwilling scapegoats. Everything goes with a you can't get everything and less for free, that people also ignore for some reason.
Yes the true end is not perfect it could have been handled better, but the normal one is not really a resolution.
9
Couldn't have put it better. It baffles me that anyone would say that Sakura grows in the Normal End compared to the how she progresses in leaps and bounds in the True End or how she's "fit better into society" or "become a better person" in the Normal End when that's definitely not the case. If someone said that, all I would think is that they completely missed the point of the route and what it was trying to say.
4
Ouch, I think she has grown in the normal end. Though definitely not as happy or as fast, she still becomes a fulfilled person in the normal end. My problems with the true end stem from tonal clash with the rest of the route and how everyone is there minus Saber and Illya at the end. It's a fantastic end, but it just doesn't sit well with me. I understand why this is a hotly debated subject and everyone's gonna see it differently, but I think that the normal end might of just felt more realistic. If I'm being perfectly honest, I'm also a sucker for bittersweet endings
3
Oh, I wasn't intending to offend or hurt you, what I wanted to say just came out that way. How anyone interprets either of the ending is up to them and I appreciate you putting out your view out there. Like every fan of the True End, I can accept that it isn't perfect and that there's some convenience in how it's presented. And I can appreciate what people like about the Normal End as well (especially the bittersweet part, it affected me too). It's just that fans of both the Normal End and True End could do better in understanding why the other is preferred.
Cheers!
3
No offense taken, and oh 100%. Reading the comments posted here has definitely opened up my eyes to the reasons people prefer the True end. The conversation is one of the reasons why I started all of this in the first place. Its been a treat to read the responses!
4
Thats hell you are walking into.
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Just keep running right?
5
I think if the normal ending was expanded upon a bit more and we were shown Sakura leaving the house more often and talking to other people while trying to smile it would’ve been better. If it was longer and also shown the painful passage of time better with her slowly growing up it would also be less tragic. I do like the tragic nature of the normal ending and the consequences that it gives Shirou who has lived throughout the entire game by the skin of his teeth. It also redeems him by making him save the world after sacrificing many people.
The issue is with how short the ending is and how unsatisfied it leaves readers wanting to have Sakura finally be free from her shackles. I do enjoy the concept of the normal ending and it could be more powerful if were given more flashback moments between Shirou and Sakura it could surpass the normal ending. I’m not a big fan of the normal ending as it goes over needless details that don’t really focus on charcters like Shirou and give lame excuses like Shirou being a puppet from a character we have no foreshadowing about. It feels like it was quickly written without much thought. The Normal Ending feels like it was the intended ending, but Nasu probably found it would be too depressing for readers. The True Ending does a better job of giving us a satisfying ending at the end and seeing Sakura’s smile at end is powerful. The normal ending has its merits and I can see why you enjoyed it so much.
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Because it ignores everything the route Is about, Sakura suffers forever to atone for her sins and cuts all development to give us a tragic ending wich is inherently superior to a happy one? Could it be that is the so called natural conclusion to the depressing and hopeless tone of the route?
3
Actually i think Sakura demonstrated more growth in the Normal ending as in she actually tried to fit into society and become better as a person without being dependant of someone. It wasnt perfect but, at least in my eyes, it was better than what happened in the True end where basically everything the route was about was ignored.
Not saying that the Normal end is better but i think it tried to do more than the True end.
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Not trying to start an argument. But doesn't Sakura do much better for herself in the True End?
In the Normal End she hopelessly wastes her life waiting for someone and it doesn't seem like she tried to fit into society at all from what was written and seems to actively distance herself from people like Taiga and Rin. Nearly all of her narration in the Normal End implies she completely failed in fitting into society:
I don't think I've seen someone for a while now
It's painful to be alone
It's fortunate that I don't miss people
I'm getting used to be alone
Talking to someone makes it feel like the whole world is condemning me as punishment.
In the True End on the other hand, after finally getting Shirou back it's obvious that she's recovered in leaps and bounds and is fitting into society much better. She first becomes the captain of the Archery Club and becomes popular with the other students, takes up the position as Supervisor of Fuyuki from Rin and is mentioned to be working with the new Preiest on making things better in Fuyuki. She definitely grows in the True End (which I thought was the one that followed what the route was about) while she regresses in the Normal End. Getting Shirou back and spending time with him helped her fit into society and be a better person which she most definitely does not in the Normal End.
5
I think you are forgetting the part where she states that she has actually tried to fit into society but it is still hard for her.
The only reason she does so well is because Shirou is there. She is, at that point, overly dependant on him. If Shirou dissapears she would do a total regression regardless of anyone else. Both ends are terrible but it is in the Normal one where she tries to be better on her own. The true end just masks all of that with superficial happiness. There isnt even something regarding her attoning for all that happened yada yada.
1
I think you are forgetting the part where she states that she has actually tried to fit into society but it is still hard for her.
That's not what she states. She says:
I'm getting used to being alone, and it's getting fun to be with others. But it's still scary.
And immediately follows up with:
Talking to someone makes it feel like the whole world is condemning me as punishment.
That's not fitting into society. Like you said, she's definitely trying but if she feels that way when she talks to people then it's pretty superficial and it's not truly fitting in with society which is what she properly does in the True End.
The only reason she does so well is because Shirou is there. She is, at that point, overly dependant on him.
If Shirou dissapears she would do a total regression regardless of anyone else.
She's dependent on him. But that doesn't mean that's always the case. She just got freed from from her family. She's like a child learning to walk. They'll eventually learn to walk on their own. She's initially dependent on Shirou but it's obvious like any human being that she'll get better with time and "learn to walk on her own". It's baffling that people are willing to put up interpretations on literally everything in the Nasuverse and not being able to think that much on the situation.
There isnt even something regarding her attoning for all that happened yada yada.
She's working with the new Priest and try to help Fuyuki recover from what happened even after 2 years. She does try to attone for what happened. She's attoning by actually helping Fuyuki recover in comparison to the Normal End where she attones by staying inside a house and waiting for someone to come back. It's not helping anyone in the latter case.
As she herself says:
I think letting guilty feelings crush me is the same as running away. I'm going to do what I can and do my best.
And Rin immediately says back:
I took a quick look, but the town's back to normal. The scar from two years ago is gone, and there haven't been any more weird incidents. I dumped my responsibilities on you and went to the Association, but I guess it turned out all right.
Honestly like pretty much anyone who prefers the Normal End to the True End it just seems that they want Sakura to be "punished". They don't actually want her to grow and become a better person.
6
I'm just going to copy paste what I wrote in the other comment. Sakura in the normal ending doesn't really have anything over true ending Sakura, she living without Shirou is not enough, her reason to live is to not waste what Shirou did, Shirou is pretty much still her reason to live, she stays there and doesn't leave the house never, she plants a flower each year that is it. In the true end she has a live beyond Shirou or Rin and I feel people just overlook it for some reason, she is making friends and a live for herself, sure she is still super dependant on Shirou, but it would be hard to expect something different in one year, another thing, being independent is overrated, yes it sure its not healthy to just depend in Shirou but again she is making progress slow but sure, she talks and cares about things other than Shirou, and needing a person is not wrong, there's hope she becomes better and grows as a person, in the normal ending we already know what happened in her life. She making progress with Shirou there is better than she mourning Shirou forever and living without him because there's no other option.
Shirou dying was foreshadowed as much as Illya hijacking his sacrifice, everything was about that, her arc Is that, it goes with a central theme, the scapegoat. Illya is the scapegoat, but willingly, she takes the burden from Shirou and Sakura, takes responsibility for them and for her family. Her closing the Grail is strong with the themes. There's another scapegoats you may know them, Sakura and Angra. Opossed to Illya and Shirou they are unwilling scapegoats. Everything goes with a you can't get everything and less for free, that people also ignores for some reason.
Yes the true end is not perfect it could have been handled better, but the normal one is not really a resolution. There's a lot I dislike about how it was handled actually but I think until Illya's sacrifice is perfect and it doesn't really ignore the themes it solidifies them.
4
The only reason is that Shirou is there. Be it the Normal or True, without Shirou, she is hopeless. If, for example, in the True end Shirou dissapears she would do a total regression and the things would probably be worse as at that point it is obsession. Being dependant is fine but is not healthy to be overly dependant or obsesive like Sakura is.
Which is why at least in the normal end she tries to be better and fit into society with her own strenght. And i think thats better.
0
Do you have any source for that?
Because you ignore one important thing
Shirou's death in HF-N is her fault. She caused it and has to live with it.
Even if HF-T Shirou left at some point for some logical reason she could be able to accept it. You have no indication in True that she is so dependant.
And even if she is, how the hell is a Sakura that still lives with the illusion that he will come back, so unwilling to accept the truth that she cant even talk to others.
And that doesn't happen for some years, happens till her last years when she is an old woman.
How the hell is that in any way better development for her?
She "tries"? Come on.
5
Of course is not healthy to be like that. That is why I don't see how the normal ending would be better, in the true end she Is actually working in her issues, in the normal one she tried and failed. There's nothing to suggest that if Shirou was not there Sakura would regress other than the idea that her sanity is completely dependant on him, wich ignores her progress, of course she needs him, and she needs Taiga and Rin and Rider, nothing wrong with having support, the idea is that eventually she will be fine, in the normal ending she fails at getting happiness for herself and just becomes a recluse, I don't see how it is better to fail on your own that succeed with the help of family and friends.
Sakura losing Shirou in the true end can not possibly be worse than her losing Shirou in the normal end, wich happened, and obviously affected her mental health, the girl never moves on,never forgives herself, never finds happiness and is evidently depressed and with PSTD yet somehow that is better because she is alone( by her own accord mind you, she distanced and Isolated herself and rejected help because her issues went unchecked, wich is basically Sakura before FSN)
3
FSN is a story about growing up. These are high school kids, about to take the next step into their lives. Sakura, and the Shadow are also a part of this. Sakura coming to terms with her inner-demons is straight out of Carl Jung (Jung even refers to the "Shadow" archetype), and it is a necessary part of self-actualization.
The problem with the Normal Ending is that neither Shirou, nor Sakura really grow up. Shirou would do the same thing at the beginning of FSN, and in any route but HF-T. He hasn't grown as a character, he is still sticking to the same childish fantasies that carried him in the other routes.
Part of the issue with Rin, and Shirou is that both of them treat Sakura like a princess in a cage, with Rin being downright abusive towards her, in an effort to keep her locked away. Both Rin, and Shirou are so focused on what they want for Sakura, that they fail to see Sakura as a person. Frankly, as HF continued on, I was more, and more worried about whether the corruption would win out, or Rin/Shirou would break her. You actually pointed out the fact that Sakura had no outlet. Part of the reason for that was because Shirou/Rin tried to keep her locked away. You can logically justify it, but no one in that situation would feel good about being left out. And with Rin turning up the tension over, and over again, Sakura breaking was inevitable. It turns out, that Shinji was the final nail in the coffin, but Rin/Shirou are the ones who pushed her into it by refusing to see that she didn't want to just sit in her room, and wait for them to save her.
Shirou in the normal ending is selfish. He is doing what he wants, not what is best for Sakura. Throughout the True Ending, he is reminded over, and over again that he needs to live. He needs to see this process through. Him sacrificing himself, and thinking that is going to solve anything is childish, and he is running away. He tells Sakura to live, but what about him? What about his responsibility?
You brought up your personal issues, where here are mine. My mother was a social worker. She worked mostly with runaway teen girls, and later in schools. My mother had to talk about some of these things with someone, and I was available. I also got to meet some of these kids since she couldn't always afford to send me to daycare. I also had a cousin who was abused by her parents. Through these stories, and personal experiences I can only say that your outlook was far too simplistic.
"The past doesn't define who she is anymore"? That is a very optimistic view of that ending. She is trapped in stasis. Never moving on, just sitting in Shirou's house until she dies.
What those kids need more than anything is good therapy, and a good support network. They don't get the therapy (that we see), but they get the support network in HF-T. The final images for both endings says so much. In HF-N, the ending is a vague image of cherry blossoms, probably from Shirou's home. An image that could have come at any point, as long as the cherry blossoms were blooming. In HF-T, the ending shows four people who never would have been together if not for their experiences, and sacrifices. They are walking forward, but with a bit of a side glance toward each other.
It is so telling that we do not even see an image of Sakura, or even Rin in HF-N. For all that ending tells us, they look exactly the same as they did during the 5th War. In HF-T, we see them just a bit more grown up. And through their actions in that ending, we see they are moving forward with their lives. And in the end, that makes it the perfect ending.
I think exactly the same, that's the reason why I think that FSN is a masterpiece and HF is the best route, because it's the one where they have to grow up and move forward with their lives. The True end isn't perfect tho, I would have liked the epilogue to be a lil bit longer and explain how both Shirou and Sakura managed to move forward the HGW events in those 2 years.
Agreed. I should have been a bit more clear. I meant that it was the perfect ending for FSN because it fit the themes, not because it is without any flaws. There is quite a bit of hand-waving that I normally would rip apart, but the ending itself works so well that I can forgive it.
As an ending to the visual novel I actually prefer the true end. However as an end to the Heavens Feel route, I think the normal end is more well suited. I think i should've made that more clear. As an ending to the vn i agree that somethings can be handwaved for example Shirou.
You mentioned that in the video. However, I stand by my argument that HF-T is the most fitting ending to HF for all of the reasons I mentioned.
The theme for FSN as a whole is "conquering oneself". The theme for HF is "the friction of the real and the ideal". More than any other route, these kids needed to grow up, and begin moving away from the childishness of their past. Sakura fought against her "shadow", and is beginning to see her own self-actualization (or Jung's individualization). Shirou finally has something to hold, beyond his own misguided ideal, and he is achieving something "real". Finally, Rin has achieved something that eluded her in every other ending due to her self-imposed restrictions. All of these characters faced the flaws in their beliefs, and came out better for it. This makes it a great ending for the VN as a whole, but also for HF in particular.
They make it really obvious in the end where they literally show them as adults, new outfits and all.
but like I said it doesn't showcases how much Shirou and Sakura struggled to be like that. The final cg is beautiful tho.
and lmao iirc at the beggining of the epilogue rin says that 2 years have passed since the hgw.I agree with you?
Not really sure how to reply further we’re just repeating ourselves.
I think the imagery of cherry blossoms in the normal end can be interpreted in two ways. One, is as you said, a symbol of her being frozen in the Emiya household unable to move on. Two, for me I see the imagery of the cherry blossoms as freedom. As she states she's freed from the past but has lost her only guide, Shirou. Thus she stays fixated on him. As i said, I think that her fixation isn't something about her holding out hope for him returning. This is largely subjective, but to me I saw it as her using the lessons he taught her as building blocks to create a foundation on which she slowly but surely builds upon over the course of many years.
While the concept of a support network is definitely important, and this is 100% my own experience that i alluded to talking so please take it with a grain of salt, Sakura was hurting everyone around her. In my own experience, I only wanted the best for the person I was with. I tried to help her branch out and open up to new people and build up her seemingly broken sense of self. While it was a dumb highschool relationship, I still recall the emotions I felt vividly and thinking upon it, it's not a situation I should've put myself in at all given my more personal history. But ultimately, everything I did resulted in me getting hurt and receding into myself more, until it eventually became a "toxic symbiotic relationship" one which we both had to break away from if there was any hope of moving on. Personally, I see Shirou and Sakuras relationship in the same light as my personal one. In both cases, I think moving on was the best for both parties. Shirou was ultimately selfish in the end, and I'm not sure if it's bad, but I was the one who broke off the relationship so I was as well. I cut all contact after the first time of trying to keep it, I knew it wouldn't work. Ultimately however, she moved on and is doing wonderfully today.
I agree with you, my outlook is extremely optimistic, and largely hinges on my own life in this instance. But I'd be lying if I said that wasn't why I 100% think this ending hits home for me so hard.
Again I can see both sides of the argument, and you hit the points you made out of the park, thank you for taking the time to respond
We humans are social creatures. We need other people. Not just for social interaction, but sometimes to lean on them. Sakura talks so much in that ending about being alone, and no one coming to see her. The only thing she says about being with other people is; “I'm getting used to being alone, and it's getting fun to be with others. But it's still scary. Talking to someone makes it feel like the whole world is condemning me as punishment.”
And then she talks to (ostensibly) Rin’s grandchild, and she smiles when talking about the “good old days”.
Everything about her in that ending is focused on the past, while HF-T is focused on the future, and moving forward with her life.
Again, at times we humans need people to lean on. I don't see any sign of Sakura taking a turn. If anything, her world has expanded dramatically in HF-T. She has her lover in Shirou, her teacher in Rider, her "adult" caretaker in Taiga, and even Rin has returned from overseas. What's more, she is becoming more outgoing. She is participating in activities, and she isn't hiding behind fantasies. She looks at what she has done, and is working to improve herself.
There is a danger of co-dependence, but I don't see that happening in HF-T. I see far more signs of growth in the True Ending.
Also, I think you are focusing too much on the way Sakura acted when she fell. One of the characters I often compare to Sakura is Frodo from the Lord of the Rings. Much like Sakura, Frodo's battle was of the mind, and the heart. And in the end, both of them failed. However, both of them also received "providence", that allowed them a chance at redemption.
What is important in both characters is that they were humble, understanding that they were not suited to the task at hand, but they continued until they broke. Tolkien comments on how Frodo's failing is not a moral one. He was fighting against a force that he had no chance of besting, and he fought until his strength finally gave out. His failing is no different than if Gollum had bashed his head in with a rock. Tolkien believed that moral failings only occur when one gives up when they still have strength left to continue
Sakura withstood a torture no human should ever have to endure, and then she fought against a corruption that no human can withstand. In the end, she broke. But she still kept enough of herself in order to give Rin/Shirou a chance to win in the end. That is amazing.
What's more, let's keep in mind everything Sakura has been though. Let’s look at her relationships. Sakura was given to the Matous at the age of 4-5, which is about the time when people get their first long term memories. That means one of her first memories is likely getting thrown away by her parents, and sentenced to a life of hell. Soon after that, her “uncle” comes back into her life, and provides the only love she has felt since being sent away. Over the course of a year, his body gets destroyed, along with his mind, and then he dies in front of her (she believes) as a lesson of what happens if she doesn’t obey to Zouken. After that, she meets Shinji. He bullies her, but in a childish way. Sakura treasures this relationship since it is the closest she has to a “normal” relationship, but eventually he turns on her. He beats, and rapes her. Finally, Rin is turned into a tool by Zouken. He constantly compares the two of them, and he talks about how much better Rin is than her. All of which causes Sakura to ask (likely with Zouken’s prodding), why isn’t her “superior” older sister coming to help her? In short, her relationships could all be categorized as betrayals, and loss.
What is her reaction to this? Her relationships have been little more than betrayal, yet when she sees Shirou defying common sense, she tries to get close to him, and even falls in love. Do you see how amazing that is? This girl has known virtually nothing but betrayal, and scorn for her entire life, but she still falls in love. This girl who everyone saw as a shy introvert, suddenly began shocking people with her tenacity. This is a girl who, despite everything, wants to love, and be loved back. So much so, that she ignores Rin’s hostility, and tries to get closer to her, and even after her fall, she refuses to stop calling her “sister”. Again, Rin is acting horrifically towards her. Beyond manufacturing misunderstandings about Rin, and Shirou’s relationship, she outright calls Sakura an enemy, and regularly talks about killing her. However, Sakura keeps trying to get close to her. She also has a close relationship with Taiga, and Rider.
Sakura is not weak, but she does need help. She is a "human being", and she needs someone to be her guide. With Shirou in her life, I see no signs of regression.
Thanks for giving it a read. One of the great things about FSN is it can spawn these kinds of discussions, and I appreciate having an in-depth discussion from time to time. So, I may not agree with your view, but thanks for sharing your video.
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