Nuclear explosions in space.

First and foremost, I have no education or experience in space sciences beyond my affinity of following those who do. Please think twice before saying "won't work" (something like, the old school scientist will say it is impossible, and the new school scientist will prove him wrong).

I understand that the US and Soviet Union both began work on spacecraft propelled by nuclear explosions. Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia article on Project Orion:

The vehicle and its test program would violate the Partial Test Ban Treaty of 1963 as currently written, which prohibited all nuclear detonations except those conducted underground, both as an attempt to slow the arms race and to limit the amount of radiation in the atmosphere caused by nuclear detonations. There was an effort by the US government to put an exception into the 1963 treaty to allow for the use of nuclear propulsion for spaceflight, but Soviet fears about military applications kept the exception out of the treaty.

Perhaps it's because I grew up after the collapse of the Cold War, but these types of spacecraft seem to be our best bet for manned exploration of the solar system. Every time I read about lassoing asteroids for their resources (like Ceres), the argument is always brought up that it would take an enormous amount of energy to move and stop a body of that size.

Nuclear explosions continue to pop up in my brain as solutions to these problems which may at some point have profound impacts on our current resource limitations in space, and would also allow for launching lighter spacecraft with our conventional cave-man methods.

Right now some Russians are making the case for nuclear powered spacecraft, which is promising to me since they seem to have been the party that raised the most objections to them in the past.

What do you think about this? What are the limitations and risks? Do you think there is harm in making an exception to the Outer Space Treaty for nuclear spacecraft? What sort of implications might this have for moving around large bodies (perhaps moving small water containing bodies to intercept a conventional rocket to Mars for ISRU)?

Posted Mar 6, 2011, 10:21 PM UTC

521
dromni•

I am all for Orion-type spaceships, but moving Ceres around is an overkill of (literally :) astronomical proportions. To put things in proportion, a single small, nickel-iron asteroid one kilometer long probably has more metal than everything that has ever been mined by Humanity along all History; and a single comet the same size would have many times the water supply (in the form of ice) of a large city. So, we don't really need (or can imagine an application for) moving around a thing the size of Ceres, which is billions of times larger and by the way is classified as a dwarf planet, not an asteroid. Also, not even all of the existing atomic bombs would make some noticeable change in Ceres' orbit; I have not run the numbers, but intuitively it seems like trying to move a watermelon using a firecracker, in the best of cases...

5
sometimesitripOP•

Noted. The example I used of moving an asteroid was more of a thought on the potential Δv power of nuclear explosions. As much as a thermonuclear explosion might be useful for moving enormous bodies at low velocities, one could move a smaller vessel at a much higher rate. I really think nuclear propulsion of the Orion-type would be a great way to reduce the weight of launching manned long-distance spacecraft. I was just trying to tie in ISRU doctrine with nuclear propulsion. There is always, of course, the talk about the risk of catastrophic failure spreading radioactive material across populated areas, but what about the hundreds(thousands?) of ICBMs in existence? All it would take is one failure and a "friendly" fire accident would be devastating.

This whole talk makes me love/hate the new direction of NASA. On one hand there is a glimmer of hope that the free market would drive down the cost of space travel, but on the other hand we haven't sent a human past LEO since the Apollo missions. I wonder if there would be an efficient way of giving universities/academia more control over the space program.

by the way is classified as a dwarf planet, not an asteroid.

Ah! I forgot that! Thanks for the correction.

Also, is there a better/proper name for Orion-type spacecraft? How about Controlled Fission/Fusion Powered Spacecraft? CFPS (Sounds like sip piss)

2
dromni•

Also, is there a better/proper name for Orion-type spacecraft? How about Controlled Fission/Fusion Powered Spacecraft? CFPS (Sounds like sip piss)

Nuclear Pulse Propulsion (and NPP is a better-sounding acronym, I think :)

1
belandil•

This whole talk makes me love/hate the new direction of NASA. On one hand there is a glimmer of hope that the free market would drive down the cost of space travel, but on the other hand we haven't sent a human past LEO since the Apollo missions. I wonder if there would be an efficient way of giving universities/academia more control over the space program.

It depends on what you think is the most important goal of the space program. Most academic programs would probably favor small, unmanned spacecraft for studying the solar system. Human space exploration is much more expensive.

1
elustran•

Global iron production in 2009 was 2240 million metric tons. A cubic kilometer of iron ore would be about 5 billion metric tons, or about 2-3 years of 2009-level iron ore production.

1
Wurm42•

I think that we will eventually get a Test Ban treaty exception for nuclear reactors on spacecraft, but it will be a narrow, carefully crafted exception.

For example, I think we'll get small pressurized-water reactors for future space stations and international missions (such as a Mars mission) with multinational crews and complicated rules about what countries the engineers can be from.

Nobody wants nuclear weapons in space, even if they're ostensibly for peaceful purposes. Launching hundreds of nuclear warheads into space for an Orion-style spacecraft will always be a non-starter unless there's some sort of "Armagedon" style imminent global threat.

3
sometimesitripOP•

I wonder what the cost of accelerating a vessel/probe out of the solar system would be compared to the Pioneer craft. I wonder what the upward velocity could be before we ran out of capacity to lob bombs at one, or how many could be stored on the spacecraft with the same velocity question.

2
Wurm42•

You mean Orion, not Pioneer, right?

The math behind Project Orion was very thoroughly worked out; you're welcome to wade through the various government reports if you want the exact numbers.

Generally, nuclear bombs could be a great way to start something moving, but they're lousy for course corrections and it gets very expensive to carry enough to slow you down at the other end.

2
Wurm42•

I think you also need to consider nuclear power for use in other types of propulsion. There's been a lot of progress in continuous-boost ion thrusters in the last decade. With a nuclear reactor for power, an ion drive could be far, far more powerful than any chemical rocket we've built and far more efficient than nuclear-explosion propulsion.

1
syringistic•

VASMIR baby!

3
unrealy2k•

I believe that Ad Astra(The guys build Vasmir) claim that if A spacecraft was equipped with a 5MW reactor it could get to Mars using Vasmir in less than 2 months. I wonder how fast it could get there with a 10-20MW reactor. Does anyone know?

1
notjohndoe2•

obviously you've never seen armageddon with bruce willis?

2
Tunafishsam•

Question: As I understand the Orion concept, nuclear explosions are used to propel the craft. But what generates the propulsion when there is no atmosphere to carry a shockwave?

1
Wurm42•

The high-velocity particles released by the explosion hit the spacecraft's blast shield. You still get action => reaction from the impacts.

3
Tunafishsam•

Thanks for the response. Are you referring to bits of debris from the explosive device or do you mean radiation/photon type particles?

1
Wurm42•

Radiation-type particles. If you set off an atomic bomb and chunks of the bomb housing survive detonation, you're not doing it right.

2