Source
r/fnatic•
darniam

Discussion - What do our team lacks to win a championship ?

DISCUSSION

This 2 last years were extremly frustrating to live as a fnatic fan even more than the 2016/2017 era, because we always unclinch at the last step, so my question to you all is : what do our team lack ?

Is it leadership ? motivation ? diversity ? ingeniuty ? trust ? management ? good drafts ? mages bot ?

I love this current roster so much and i want them at the top, i know that this post won't help with anything but we need at least to shed some light about what our team actually needs and rationaly discuss it instead of all the false hopes that gets shattered every last step by G2 unironically.

Posted May 20, 2020, 3:05 AM UTC

4595
XenololRekkles•

I think it has to do with mentality and draft we always play worse vs G2

27
Azaiko•

I think another aspect is that G2 always plays at their best when facing Fnatic. They usually troll a bit against other teams but go full 100% against Fnatic.

5
darniamOP•

Yea, i agree but mental block is such a broad subject, like u could as an exemple perform group therapies but will it fix it ? we could also be playing worse not because of a mental block but because of a plethora of minor issues that just spike when we're facing a good team : comms/drafts/positionning/shotcalling/trust/strategy. The drafts/execution were also bad compared to the regular split which struck me as odd, why just in the finals?

4
XenololRekkles•

Agree I use mental as a point because it always happens in the finals. Like you said we had good drafts in the regular split and then in the finals we had bad drafts. So it’s pretty coincidental.

4
Ashtarr•

G2 just read us like a book. I think we need to hide tactics/picks until the final vs G2. The players can't pick their best champions and expect to win, G2 would surely have an idea how to counter that.

Remember the serie last year where we won 2 games because of the Jax pick. We need that more. G2 used echanters in the finals and Wunder picked Janna top in the regular season.

7
XenololRekkles•

I forgot which video it was of G2 but they said how they wanted Rekkles to keep playing/play aphelios

5
darniamOP•

Sadly it's true..

3
Kaderloop•

Wasn't just the finals, we also choked both games against G2 in the regular season. I guess the boys are scared of G2

1
Debannage•

You guys aren't even considering the fact that their players are better than ours

5
darniamOP•

they either respect them too much or don't, it's like they don't know what they'll do so they just let them take the reigns but if they're in the front seat they panic and get stressed out. ugh like i watched some sports, and in any rivalry, mental issues are resolved in 1 to 2 months period ; manchester city lost 1/4 CL against liverpool but took home the league title; manchester united lose against city in cup and league upset them in the away match in the league. I think our team can resolve it, but it requires amazing self consciousness and rational diagnosis from the coaching staff.

1
ArcadiaM•

G2 are a very strong team so its not a easy task to beat them but i think its possible.

I think the main issues are the Drafts and Mental issues.

Using the finals as a example games 1-2 were pretty much lost in the draft and by the time a good draft happened in game 3 the team looked like it had mental boomed with people inting all over the place.

17
darniamOP•

assuming the drafts and the mental block are serious issues that are in need for treatment, i feel like there are more issues that makes the team have that shaky feel and not reliable strong feel.

2
luer1001:lol:•

I have heard some Good things now during the break, like the team wanting bwipo to play more 1v9 champs and the like. But i still dont think that it will help against g2. I also think just letting selfmade be more experienced in the team can make a huge difference.

9
darniamOP•

yea same, it's not about 1v9 champs but more about each one being accountable and steping in when needed. Majority of the fans don't want false hopes, if we're worse just say it so we can ask the more important questions : how do we get better ?

6
luer1001:lol:•

Just imagine the memes g2 will pump out if we admit defeat. But i do think this roster scales. With mithy getting better each day as well

1
darniamOP•

well if we don't approach the matter rationaly losing to them will just be as frustrating as ever, at least if we just admit that we're worse we won't be as frustrated at the end of the day + we won't be the typical rage fan who is just driven by passion.

1
luer1001:lol:•

I personally dont see a passionate fanbase as a necessarily bad thing. Seeing as they are loyal and crave results, which could push the team further, but i definetely see where you are coming from. I would also like to see the team try to innovate, like bwipo did the picks in top. i also think comfort is better than meta for our boys.

4
PedroLRebelo•

Honestly small stuff... I dont agree with what some people are saying about leadership and shotcalling because good teams dont have a single shotcaller for a while now, sure, having a leader is nice and all but Perkz for instance isnt the only one calling the plays on G2 and web shouldnt have that in FNC and even less on Rekkles if hes not that kind of guy, also, hes kind of the leader still without shotcalling 'cause you can see when the others talk about him that hes just respected as fk and the guys look up to him, so yea, hes kinda of a leader just not an one-man shotcaller. About the things we are lacking, I believe those are: drafts, I always feel we're being outdrafted by G2 and this also means that our boys have kinda of a small champ pool to play against them (cmon, we had to perma ban 3 champs on all games in the finals, is really no one talking about that? That was fkng massive), also, Hyli needs to be on a confort pick (not tahm), Nemesis champ pool being too small to face a team like g2 'cause honestly we all know hes picking mages contantly or in alternative tanks like ornn, G2 knows that, they play around that too...

7
darniamOP•

The thing with leadership is it's not a tangible thing, u can't define it cuz it's proper to each individual but it's sensed, like a culture around a team. I don't mind not having any, cuz it's not a necessary condition to winning. Drafts issues are as u pointed always followed with other issues such as champion pool issues, comfort. But can these issues be fixed in a month break ?

3
PedroLRebelo•

I feel like we somewhat have that with Rekkles really... No, those issues are fixed over a few weeks/months I guess. At this point I couldnt care less if we dropped games at the summer split if that meant that the guys expanded their champ pool and we reached playoffs the same ofc. Also, I dont really know if Mithy is able to fulfill his role 100% YET, being unexperienced and all but im still sticking with him 'cause I love the atmosphere around the team and I like the fact that he is actually more like one of them, that can be helpfull in so many ways.

4
darniamOP•

Same, but it feels hopeless to just wish for something and see it's not fulfilled.

3
PedroLRebelo•

Will see. After the talk when we lost spring split for G2 bwipo started playing more carry champions, maybe the others are trying to expand their champ pools too (not Nemesis though, looks like hes sticking to mages). Always feel like we have the fkng ability to destroy any team, it just comes down to put in the effort and overcome ourselves and this demon (G2)

1
Neygem•

Draft is the issue mainly because they refuse to adapt to a new meta. Lee sin picks? Don't make me laugh, just because it's Selfmade's favorite pick? It's 2020 + not soloQ so comfort pick doesn't matter as long as he ruins the composition. Lee sin is super inefficient pick unless you go full early game and plan to end it in mid game. I don't wanna be harsh but when I look at Fnatic's draft it always feels kinda ignorant to me. SoloQ is place for comfort picks, eSport is a different level.

About leadership. Compare Fnatic when they had yellowstar vs now. So saying that it doesn't matter is ignorant and "best teams in the world don't have a shotcaller" isn't argument to not have one.

-3
PedroLRebelo•

Do you really want to compare league in 2014 to league in 2020? Shotcallers/leaders back then were a thing, not now really and you can fkng do a quick search to find multiple coaches and pro players saying that. About Lee Sin dont being meta... Hm, Im pretty sure Lee Sin is always meta unless they nerf the fk out of him, same thing with playmaker supports like thresh, they dont leave meta unless theres something really OP or they nerf it, but hey, Im only a silver despite following pro play since 2012

5
Neygem•

True, you are silver and that's why you think Lee sin is meta...

0
PedroLRebelo•

And ur probably an hardstuck high rank who fails to accept the fact that ur not that awesome at the game. I may be silver but that doesnt mean I dont understand the game, for sure there are things that I dont know but dont tell me Lee Sin is not one of the champs youncan pick whenever and still be relevant, whether thats on solo queue or pro play. Its true he doesnt fit in every comp but hes good.

1
Nickoleiro9:lol:•

Regarding the improvements which someone could argue that can come through roster changes, my opinion is that they are wrong.
I mean Selfmade and Nemesis are so great and so talented and still have room to improve and aim higher meaning making the team even better. I do not think we can find better players especially mid season and have the team bonded as they all get along pretty well. We need to give the guys time.

Now regarding the G2 thing, it feels to me that G2 has a mental edge in the games. I do not feel we lack something as a team and if you made the players play with no emotions just pure knowledge, mechanics etc, we could/would come on top.
It feels to me, and I get that when I watch the games FNC-G2, that we try way too hard against them, we try to outplay every single thing, we try so hard just to get a kill and overcommit, overextend, over-everything in many situations to be honest, just to win against G2. Most of the times I feel the hunger and the emotions from our players and this year I could feel anger and disappointment in the Final games trying just to get a kill to feel better. They just want so badly to win G2. Against other teams they are chilling playing their game but when it is G2, man, they just want to murder them... And they fail... And all of this has passed though the drafts (Bwipo himself said that GP would be a great pick but he blocked could not think of it) passes though their plays etc etc..

TL;DR : I do not think that we lack something, we are as a good complete and talented team as G2 and other top teams, and I could easily see us in Worlds Final again. We just need to be more chill and not looking at names, teams and stuff and handle this as just another game that we can win as superior team and it will happen.

6
MadElf1337:mod:•

This is the most complete answer I've seen in this thread

3
full-of-lead•

I agree with the mental part 100% and I raise you with the following statement:

G2 egdes us mentally because they can tilt, chill and re-focus during one game. We seem to be going on the downward spiral of tilt when facing G2. If one map is lost, another one is a disaster.

3
huskow•

Remember guys we are talking about 2 of the best teams in The world and it seems that g2 have The edge right now bcz of diversity they can swap roles and play non-meta champis that fit inte The comp IF they need.

I feel like we did that before with caps but have lost it in some kind of way. The only one that does it today is bwipo. I mean caps bulled out The kog against US and did good on ut bcz The comp they had was really good. He pulled out a vayne at some point and had huge succuess on it.

Get hylli on a playmaker! Rakan, thresh, hus zilean was crazy. Hilly plays better when The team understands him but many Times i see good engages by him but nobody to follow sometime only bwipo. Bwipo just do what you do without The int. Dont die solo or get ganked. Selfamde i want him to be more comfortable that he can carry. Nemesis i want him to play carry Champions more bcz i feel like this guy has crazy tp plays and I rly think he can go of. Rekkles play more carry Champions. Dare to go for The aggressive plays even IF it doesent pay off i just want him to do it. If you watch his highlights last year he did some crazy stuff and at some point he sad im sorry i went a little ham. He has nothing this spring split. Just go ham rekkles.

I also think selfmade is gonna get into The team more in The summersplit so tha Will make a diffrence.

5
GenjDog•

But you gotta realise not all of them can play carry champions at once. Like its okay if all of them can do it and swap around based on opponent and their compisition but not all of them should playy carry champions

2
huskow•

I do not mean all of them at The same time i just mean i want them to play more of the carry Champions.

1
GenjDog•

Yeah it could be good but its also like whats the meta looking like, if bwipo can play aatrox he porbably will but ye more often could maybe pay off for them

1
MyStyIe•

Nothing. G2 just have better players

4
darniamOP•

True, no need to argue over g2 having better players, but if that's the case then they're lacking somewhere not "nothing".

2
MadElf1337:mod:•

SKT had better players than SSG during 2017 Worlds, look what happened.

It's not about having better players, it's about becoming a better team and working as a unit.

There are plenty of examples, EDG 2015, FPX 2019

11
darniamOP•

Also true, hence why i wanted to discuss this, so even if we lose, we'll know why we lost, not just the G2 are better but where ?

I seriously doubt this topic will change anything even if we pinpoint everything that our team lacks but we will at least know if the next step is bullshit or not ? e.g. changing support or changing coaching staff. So we can have a healthy support for FNC not the tribalist shit that makes hearts ache.

2
MadElf1337:mod:•

If you watched Bwipo's off season streams, he talked about this.

They had a sit down after the split, to discuss things to improve, and they agreed unanimously that everyone needed to be a little more selfish and play the champions they thought were better instead of playing for the team.

He said and I quote, "Rekkles basically told me to be selfish and play champs that could 1v9, so I'm going to do that in summer"

5
pedrex21•

I don't believe in this mental block bullshit. Looking at what Perkz himself said about the finals, most likely preparation and drafting. That's, in my opinion, the 2 biggest issues that stops FNC from winning a title. The drafting gap was gargantuan in the finals and judging by what Perkz said, preparation as well. Also FNC can't play losing side. I don't think the players are the problem at all, but Rekkles not playing stuff like Kalista and Nemesis(again, judging by what Perkz said) not playing dominant early game midlaners and only playing scaling champs kinda shows the difference between G2 and FNC

3
Monka_hmm•

it’s consistency.

2
darniamOP•

True, but it's hard to be consistent when faced with different styles of meta, in a much broader sense of consistency where the whole process of finding consistently good strategies and ways to win in different metas may be the ultimate goal here. But it's really hard to achieve: if you take football where there's only few strategies but the consistent execution is only achieved by top tier teams because if i recall, Siemone atletico's coach drills into them a discipline of adaptations to the oppenant's strategies.

So u say one word, and i 100% agree with u, but it's also an amalgamation of a plethora of diffrent things that the team need to figure out.

I

2
Monka_hmm•

might also be confidence. they beat origen and mad lions with no problem, probably because they knew they were better. against g2 they kinda felt pressured to not mess up, and that’s what actually happened. also last year, the first games in bo5 against g2 were easily won, but as the finals were going on the amount of pressure might have increased.

1
darniamOP•

I think it's a major issue that needs to be fixed, being level headed andcool instead of playing with emotions is really hard to have. Might need our boys to be self conscious about if first.

1
Neygem•

No matter the meta, you don't play aggressive If you are losing lane (refering to bwipo). I would understand If he was aggressive (push) to pull enemy jungler to top side while Fnatic tries to do drake. But he is aggressive absolutely randomly unless I am missing something.

1
darniamOP•

Well it's a tendency that bwipo had ever since Fnatic got him, he needs to be refined, but u can't argue here that Wunder just outclassed him period.

2
Neygem•

Draft sucks and bwipo being 0/6 doesn't help it. That's my subjective view of it.

They should probably try what has always worked for Fnatic and that's playing around Rekkles while he is on tristana / sivir. G2 has shown more than enough that scaling compositions work so why picking lee sin and other unmatching picks.

They should chose one shotcaller or split shotcalling between 2 or 3 persons. It's better to do a worse play as 5 than good play as 2. You can see that in a lot of situations Fnatic isn't on the same page and this is what they had yellowstar for (beside having best support ever).

2
darniamOP•

Actually true, we should stick to our strengths and have a good and effecient system of comms. Bwipo in the other hand playing strongside and not delivering was a downer for me honestly.

2
AlSapphire•

I think the mentality, they always seem afraid and nervous

2
PulverizeR-•

Mentality. The finals PB was a disaster.

2
Stormgator•

Feels like Rekkles and Hyli often aren't on the same page in the early to mid game

1
darniamOP•

honestly i feel the same, this team extremly lacks a leader, it looks like rekkles doesn't live up to his role as the eldest.

0
crescend0ll•

I believe he once said in an interview that once Yellowstar left, everyone expected him to be the next shotcaller but it wasn't in his nature. He literally said he barely speaks during the game. I don't think he's that type of leader you're all talking about.

4
darniamOP•

Well its empirically proven that teams with good leaders prosper : doinb/bengi/perkz/yellowstar/xpeke/etc we need a good leader, one to create a culture around the team; and while it's not neccessary to win it's still a thing to wish for our team. For shotcalling i think they need to figure out a good and efficient system, we can't have our ADC not speaking up.

1
crescend0ll•

I agree, but you can't put the blame on rekkles because he, as the most experienced member, doesn't have de ability to lead or it isn't in his nature.

3
PluppyBlop:lol:•

I completely disagree with you. Especially since only 2 of jour exemples are modern league (yes YS plats again and has this role with succes but not un top league and with rookies only). Ans even with that, Perkz isn't a leader un this g2. They all are on the dame page. I dont know about DoinB. In all interviews I saw on this topic for the last 2 years the players interviewed say that it doesn't fit the way the game is played now to have only one shotcaller, one leader.

2
Oldwarblues•

You guys all expect Rekkles to shot call but he doesn’t want to... Just have someone else do it.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
bastache•

Mental block against g2

1
zSalsy•

Get Rekkles on a actual carry he can play.

Rekkles so far has a 4-5 record with Aphelios and he’s never at any point had any stand out moments with the champion at all.

Out of the 5 games lost during regular season 3 games were Aphelios and out of the 3 games lost in the finals 2 were Aphelios.

Personally I think everyone on the team actually played very well looking back at it aside from Rekkles.

If he can play something that he can actually hard carry on like his signature Tristana or Sivir or picks he’s showed he’s strong in like Xayah I definitely feel like that Finals would’ve been a 5 gam stretch at least.

One of the reasons they went to 10 games with G2 in summer last year was because everyone was able to play to their strengths and what they were good at.

0
darniamOP•

So u think rekkles can't pilot aphelios as good as other ADC ? i seriously doubt that our issues lies in that, i think there are more serious things that needs to be addressed.

Even though our drafts were seriously bad in finals, strangely enough they weren't in the regular split.

4
parkourman01•

I don't think the Aphelios is the issue but rather the comps it forces the team to play is the issue.

If you just look at the finals, as soon as he picks aphelios, they now have to pick something super peel for him which ended up being TK.

It's not a secret that Hyli is best on engage supports. G2 said after that they were happy to let fnc take the Aphelios cus it meant Hyli was likely gna play TK. When fnc don't have Hyli on an engaged, we always look worse.

2
Oldwarblues•

It’s also known that he’s probably the best on the champ in the LEC...

3
darniamOP•

So it's ultimatly about us playing more to our strenghts, which is just another facet to draft phase.

I 100% agree with what u just said, hyli is insane on engage supps and i think not giving it to him is downgrading him a lot

1
parkourman01•

I think so yes. The drafts in finals were straight int but it's problematic for the team when one of our primary engage tools and engage players is on TK duty to protect an immobile carry.

Honestly we just got our drafted and outplayed in the finals. We could talk about "what needs to change" but the reality is, we lost that series off bad drafts and bad play. We were not drafting how we did all split and we were not playing like we did all split. Idk if this was complete mental boom against G2 but if you listen to the Comms as well. They're a complete mess. It's Bwipo and Hyli calling for fights, Nemesis asking if he can do X or Y with nobody answering him and rekkles being totally adverse to taking a lot of the fights BC he knows they don't win them cus their comps are shit.

A big change has to happen in Comms. They are messy and have too much chatter going on from some people with not enough from others. People should talk if they have important information to feed or a call to make.

Inted drafts is easy enough, just get LS on the phone. Comms however need to be properly worked on and organized. We have to appreciate as well that we had a lot of behind the scenes changes this split, new coaching staff is huge and changing jungler too so 2nd place in spring is a good sign. We had 1 bad series and we don't need to go changing every role and every decision, just tidy up drafts and Comms and we should be good to go.

2
PluppyBlop:lol:•

I didn't agree at first, but with this comment I get you

1
zSalsy•

Rekkles has the lowest DPM and the second lowest DMG% for all ADCs in the spring playoffs.

Sure some of it has to do with the fact he played fasting Senna however, his DMG% for such a talented player he is should never be that low.

His DMG% during Summer 2019 playoffs was the second highest behind Perkz and it had to due with the fact he was able to play more hard carry oriented champions like Ezreal, Xayah, Tristana.

Also if you feel that there are other issues with the team then state them, don’t just make a blank statement.

2
darniamOP•

I really think is a seriously good adc, i think analytics can be a bit misleading sometimes cuz it's due to the team performance, team strategy and game state.

What i meant is that the issue is not rekkles, cuz we know his worth and his highs ,the issues that are worthy of discussion are those who arose in serious games : like the g2 games; how can we perform better with our players strengths ?

The issues that I noted in these recent games : communication, strategy, draft and focus (broad themes i know, but it's up to the team to discuss it extensively), my objective with this post is for us fans to know how our team can get better, not nitpicky stuff, but a general direction.

We're still a really good team, the problem is how do we get to the next stage.

I think first we need a new strategic coach, we need good communication system in game, and a more intelligent approach to the game (maybe through our boys speaking up and discussing strategy, trying new stuff in game and not be scared to try stuff like our game vs og) plus we need to be more gritty.

I'm 100% sure that the team know of it, and i think it's really hard to get them right in just one break, but if we're willing to improve we'll improve. And i think we can beat them, we just need to try improving thorough this split.

1
Not1v9again•

A support that doesn't int

-2
darniamOP•

what do u suggest as a replacement then ? the EU support pool is pretty limited, we can also import but we lose in coms.

1
Not1v9again•

There's alot of EU mids that would benefit greatly from swapping to support. Also there's no point in comms when you can't mechanically follow it up

1
darniamOP•

i guess so but who do u suggest ? and did anyone ever swapped from mid to support and got signed by a big org ?

As for coms, i think they're more important than mechanics, but still u'll have to find the equilibrium not someone with bad mechanics.

1
GreedyAd9•

Hyli is a good supp, ints sometimes but his proactive and aggressive play nature is needed, his high is surpassing Micky easily.

1