Source
r/dignitas•
Elarial

What's wrong with Froggen?

I have been a follower of him since season 2. He has always had this slow style where he would gain advantages through adding small things together, then would use it in the teamfights. What happened to him? I am one of his defenders but starting last split he started to play like a NA midlaner. Nearing the end of the spring split he was doing Froggen things again but this split he is worse than his worst i have seen so far. This is so uncharacteristic of him where he would get cought in a weird spot/not landing skillshots properly/not timing stuff properly/not gaining advantage in the lane/way below his level of teamfighting.

Does anyone know if he had some kind of psychological problem or anything else that is blocking him?

Posted Jun 21, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

612
NarvaezIII•

If we're talking about season 2 back then team's were still figuring out macro.

Mascow 5 introduced ideas such as priority. Teleport buff introduced things such as TP advantage, lane-assignments, and legitimized split pushing. Scuttle crab, rift herald, elemental dragons, turret plates, they all slowly over time changed how important macro is.

I remember the days of 5 mid trying to win a teamfight through death balling, and taking over the map. Orianna, and Anivia were really strong for this. Orianna ult was meant to destroys deathballs, and Anivia could almost indefinitely hold back and defend the 5 man mid startegy.

So these micro advantages such as CS, and towers taken down were important.

Now we've got more mobility in champions, more objectives, and more skirmishes. The incremental CS advantages don't cut it anymore. In a game state where skirmishes decides who gets the objectives, Froggen either hesitates when the enemy mid is missing, or is too slow to match them.

His match history still shows he prefers champions like orianna, Viktor, velkoz, and sometimes Anivia), and the few mobile mid-laners he has chosen he hasn't won in.

I love the guy, I started maining Anivia back in season 3 because of him. He needs to adapt, and be more risky, start limit testing, or he will eventually fade away further

5
NarvaezIII•

Looking on this, I realize I'm writing about him as if he's a caveman whose been frozen in time from season 2 and just got back in season 10. Honestly, it feels like it.

I want to add that sometimes people are their champions. They learn through trial and error what the most optimal way to pilot their champ is, and this mentality carries over sometimes. Champions like Orianna, Anivia, and Viktor have to position well, they have to prioritize dealing safe damage, and not getting caught out.

It's possible this leads to playing mobile champs less optimally, from hesitating to leave lane CS, to not limit testing when behind. People like to meme that term. Limit testing. However that's the best way to learn what you can do, and what you can't do, mechanically. It's why Caps, and Perkz make magically plays that somehow works. It's why Blaber was known as a mid-to-late game inter. They go from coin-flip player to "best in their role".

3
ElarialOP•

Im not talking about season 2 i am literally talking about summer 2019 spring 2019 when he was in NA. Although i do agree that he hesitates or underestimated his skill against the opponents from time to time.

I am just talking about what changed from the last season or even the end of the last split. He is kind of a person who would not put himself at such risks or took wrong decisions. He is not a kind that takes risky chances sure but he would almost never makes wrong decisions. Its almost like someone else has taken Froggen's name and playing instead of him because this again feels so unfamiliar. Again i am biased obviously but i have literally watched every pro game of this guy. Seems odd

1
Asome1997•

His style is outdated and he’s not that good at it. He plays this lane control pressuring style where he focuses on good cs and being the carry but he’s just not that good at it. Look at Nisqy, Caps and DoinB etc etc they all make plays across the map. Unless you’re like Rookie or Knight, you’re not gonna win the game solohandidly through mid lane.

Froggen’s inability to change either indicates arrogance and stubbornness about how to play the game, or that he doesn’t have the depth to play more than one style.

I think Dig should have moved for Damonte- sure his laning is worse but he’ll actually make a play to try and win rather than bleed out slowly like Froggen.

Simply put, Froggen just hasn’t adapted to S10 league.

2
TheRealConorsz•

Froggen comes from an age when high cs could win the game alone. I remember watching his karthus game live when he set the record for fastest 300 cs in pro play. That record might have changed, idk, but he was a god at that play style whereas the meta mid style has changed pretty drastically. Take a look at the team that won worlds, he was not the "best" mid but he roamed and propped up everyone else on his team.

2
GodofSteak•

That slow style is extremely outdated. He needs to pick up champs that isn't Orianna or Anivia. Mid role too important to not have pop up potential champs. PoE was the same exact player as him, but he adapted and improved himself to be more well rounded.

1
jackkiwi•

Drafting incoherently between mid and jungle, and actually having a gameplan is the main reason.

Froggen can play Le Blanc in better drafts. He's played Talon very effectively.

1
omersafty•

I'll still blame the draft and coaches. You can't do shit when your team is solo queue picks vs lcs picks.

0
omersafty•

U can say what you want, but give this team good draft then judge him please.

0
Asome1997•

Nah, teams have won with a lot weirder drafts because they make it work. Nisqy played Karma and did this oppressive force Kassadin in and back up the Olaf strat. Froggen does 1 style and that’s it.

2
omersafty•

U listened to yourself when you said

and did this oppressive force Kassadin in and back up the Olaf strat

This is called good draft. I'm talking here about Elise first pick, leona and orianna vs a full mobility team. Trundle in a team that doesn't need him and the full enemy team counter him.

I'm talking about not making use of Froggen OP picks like Anivia or Karthus. This is the first season that Froggen doesn't pick Anivia and Karthus so he make the enemy team ban them every game making your team win draft easy because enemy team lose 2 bans.

I'm talking about the oblivious picks that pull your team down.

Let's be honest. I want you to look at the picks then ask yourself. What can the team do now? What is the condition to which they can win objectives/lanes/games ?

If condition is relying on "IF" Then easily you've lost draft. And every game there is "IF"s.

1
InnommableEuw•

Karthus is super bad right now, need a perfect setup to be worth picking as a midlaner.

Even last season before Karthus got nerfed and it was banned against Froggen's team, I swear it was a flex pick and the one game he actually played it in the midlane had a really good setup for it.

Source : high elo Karthus main since s2. I'm not as expert on Anivia though I used to play her too but I'm guessing she's equally situationnal and pretty weak pick overall for competitive play.

On another note, I think Froggen is underperforming lately. More mistakes than usual and less clutch play. Hope he get back in form.

2