Source
r/joinsquad•
test822

820 hours played, some criticisms/feedback

Discussion

SL's having to both SL and base-build

Games are won and lost by a team's HAB building. This job currently falls upon the SL's to do.

But SL's having to worry about both HAB building/supplying and directing his men in combat is too much at once. Toss command chat into the mix and it's no wonder people get overwhelmed trying to SL and end up avoiding the role.

I want to be ordering my machinegunner to set up on that wall and provide covering fire while I direct my other fireteam to flank the suppressed enemy. I can't give this my full attention if I'm also having to keep looking back at main to see where the heck our logis are, worrying about HABs, worrying about ammo, spending all my time driving a truck around, etc.

In the real army, do they make squadleaders build HABs and also command in combat? No, they have special logistics men doing that crap so their SL's can focus on combat. How is an SL supposed to be able to effectively coordinate his men if he's busy driving back and forth to main in a logi alone the entire match.

There needs to be a specific "logistics/construction squad" that's responsible for dealing with all that stuff so SL's can actually focus on combat and their men, and if it's such an unfun job that nobody would ever want to do it, then maybe just remove it from the game, because computer games are supposed to be fun.

Yes, I know it is possible to create a specific "logi squad", but this rarely gets done, and can't be relied upon. Maybe only the commander should be able to build HABs, and to facilitate this, the commander should be able to spawn on any squad's rally. But then you have the issue of crappy commanders ruining entire matches due to Hab building incompetence.

Maybe do something like Hell Let Loose where commanders can either airdrop supplies anywhere on the map at-will, or give a squad member the ability to supply the SL to build a HAB. At the very least, an underpowered "half-hab" that spawns at reduced rates that can be upgraded to a proper one if it receives further supplies. This could take some pressure off SL's to spend half the game playing trucker simulator while their men run wild out in the field not being lead.

Returning logis to main

Returning logis to main sucks. The smartest thing to do after building a HAB is to drive the logi all the way back to main and then open up console and kill yourself and respawn, so your team continues to have access to the logi and it doesn't get stranded. This is an unfun chore.

Heck, even blowing it up and scuttling it is still a better option than leaving it empty out in the field.

I don't care if this removes realisim or something, but give the ability to just "reset" the logi after you're done with it so you don't have to do this whole song and dance. Make you able to tie a giant balloon to it and whisk it away like metal gear solid, I don't give a crap, just don't make someone drive it back and kill themselves.

Half the players don't even know how to open console and kill themselves anyway, I have to explain it to them all the time, and even then nobody wants to do it, so then I can either do it myself, which removes me from the field and leaves my men without an SL, or I can threaten to start kicking people, which makes the kicked people start having a freudian authority figure rejection meltdown and then start TKing me, leaving my men without an SL as I have to spend 10 minutes digging around for the server's discord so I can report and kick the TKer so I can finally get back to playing the game.

Fireteams

how fireteams should be used: command one fireteam to provide cover fire on an objective, command the other fireteam to flank the objective while the enemies there are pinned and distracted.

how fireteams are currently used: your marksman going "OMG GIB FTL SO I CAN MARK, GIB FTL SO I CAN MARK" and then if you refuse to, he throws a shit-fit and starts TKing you. I've had a good handful of people rage-quitting my squad, insulting me as a SL, or TKing me because I refuse to give them FTL so they can mark. Nobody even knows how to give a grid reference anymore because everyone has been so spoiled by fireteam marking. I want to assign fireteams based on kit combinations, not based on which marksman has lone wolfed up on top of a mountain without my permission.

also while I'm at it, who's idea was it to make fireteam colors "blueish-green" and "greenish-green". These are so difficult to tell apart on the map. Make them red or orange. There are a lot more colors that would've worked better here, wtf.

Posted Jun 25, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC · edited

092
memesr2gud•

Dude... You just hit T and select HAB icon, it takes 2 seconds. If you are taking longer than that to build a fob I'm really confused on what you are doing lmao

9
Singha_SC•

He's over there planning Operation Barbarossa.

9
test822OP•

You just hit T and select HAB icon, it takes 2 seconds.

I'm not complaining about the T interface. I'm complaining about the endless logi wrangling.

-1
memesr2gud•

That's why the design of FOBs need to be reconsidered, atm they are too easy to take down requiring SLs to build them all the time cuz they get destroyed in a blink of an eye due to sappers

make them a bit tougher to take down and I think you will have less of what you are complaining about.

6
test822OP•

I don't mind how easy they are to take down. I actually think that's balanced pretty well right now.

What I dislike is having to spend my time driving around in a logi by myself, far away from the rest of my squad, unable to see their situation or give them effective direction.

0†
memesr2gud•

then why don't you have someone from your squad do it? I don't know why you are always driving in a logi truck

5
PhoenixReborn•

Returning logis to main

Supply lines are an essential part of the game. You shouldn't be able to return a truck to main without risk. Vehicles that are truly abandoned will explode after a while. Instead of having people suicide, have them return in a vehicle, or keep running supplies, or just park the thing in a safe spot for later.

If you're constantly threatening to kick people and getting teamkilled, that's not normal. Start looking inward.

5
Stahlstaub•

You're so right!

Haven't seen anyone driving back and suiciding in mainbase yet... There's alway someone to pick you up every 4 or 5 minutes... In most games there's at least one guy willing to do logi runs, sometimes it's just hard for him to get to one in the first place...

Just assign your guys to a general task instead of micromanaging your team.

Like: send one guy to do logiruns on all the fobs so every fob got constant 1000ammo and 500construction at least. He'll be occupied the whole game...

If you just think of your own goals, the team is nonexistent anyways...

Don't ask what the team can do for you but ask what you can do for the team... Most of the time it's just bad or no communication that makes games bad. So if you can strengthen a flank in any means your squad is more effective than being the meat grinder spearhead.

2
test822OP•

In most games there's at least one guy willing to do logi runs

so then the best thing to do would be to return the logi to main and then kill yourself, so that "one guy" can get your logi, and you won't have to manually walk all the way back to the front, right?

send one guy to do logiruns on all the fobs so every fob got constant 1000ammo and 500construction at least. He'll be occupied the whole game...

and if he says no? do I have to threaten to kick him?

1
Stahlstaub•

1st After the one guy asks if he can take the logi he can take it from the fob or he cam bring the guy that just brought the logi to main back to the front... Really no reason for suiciding.

2nd there's no reason to threaten anyone. Because if you threaten someone it's inducing bad gameplay. Better think of anway to encourage someone. Or just ask someone else...

1
test822OP•

1st

I kind of agree with you, but maybe the front will change. It's still the safest to just leave it at main for anyone to use at any time.

Better think of anway to encourage someone.

I will paypal you one dollar lol. unfortunately unlike Hell Let Loose, squad has no infrastructure for positive reinforcement, beyond the good words of a random internet person you've just met 5 mins ago, and most pc gamers are literal sociopaths so that doesn't really hold any value to them.

Or just ask someone else...

sorry but I don't have time for people who disobey SL orders. if they didn't want to follow SL commands there are plenty of other games they should probably be playing instead.

1
test822OP•

Vehicles that are truly abandoned will explode after a while.

not quickly enough

have them [...] keep running supplies

a lot of players don't really find Trucking Simulator 2000 fun, and asking them to do so at threat of kick isn't really fair to someone who probably joined the server to shoot. I think there should always be a dedicated "construction squad" so players who are prepared for that kind of work can join it, and not get "tricked" into it when they join an infantry squad.

If a large and crucial part of your game is considered unfun and undesirable to do by most players, then I'm sorry but your game has a problem.

or just park the thing in a safe spot for later.

safest spot is still main

0
ComradeHXPR v1.63•

Could just give CE the ability to deploy the deployables.

People are retarded at reading maps. They probably don't notice that they can get the precise grid by moving mouse onto the map.

2
test822OP•

what's "ce"

People are retarded at reading maps.

probably doesn't help that OWI makes the map default to the shittiest most inconvenient 2004-era binding that's halfway across your keyboard.

1
ComradeHXPR v1.63•

The clear solution to logi problem is to increase their respawn time so people don't blow them up.

2
MentalTwo2849•

Stop micromanaging your squad members. You shouldn't have to babysit your MG for your MG to know what they should be doing. If your AT needs to be told to "shoot at that vic" they shouldn't be AT. If your CE doesn't know they should be digging, or hunting FOBs or setting up mines, they shouldn't be CE.

Your role as SL is not to manually direct your squad, it is to be the backbone of the team, doing the work to setup the FOB infrastructure. This means setting up FOBs and HABs and the occasional emplacement and rallys and the larger squad-wide strategy like "defend this cappoint" or "attack this cappoint" or "enemy squad West of cappoint" or to setup markers on the maps for your squad/team to react to. Essentially your role as SL is to manipulate the blueberries/squadmates on the team by setting marks on the map, setting up respawn points and managing logistics.

This is not the real army. This is not a milsim. This is a video game with rules and a meta to those rules. By micromanaging your squad you're doing actions that are not intended for the SL in this game and therefore neglecting actions you need to do as an SL in this game.

When I SL, I use FTLs as sort of 2nd in command. I give FTL to those "backseat" SLs that will communicate and most importantly mark stuff on the map when I'm too busy to. Generally speaking, my squadmates hear from my FTLs much more than they hear from me as I'm way too busy doing more important work.

​

I'd recommend you watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGK6UP4mZjM

1
BucketOfHurt•

Are you really this disconnected with how the game actually works with pubbies? They don't even look left or right if they see an enemy 150m away, let alone they don't fucking deal with most shit you mention or even cross a street without being threatened to get kicked first. Of course you have to fucking micro-manage if you want to be a good squad leader.. Just telling them to "defend this" or "defend this" will make you mediocre at best.
I personally don't have issues with micromanaging my own squad as well as other squad leaders at the same time on a good day, but I definitely understand why most people do.

1
test822OP•

let alone they don't fucking deal with most shit you mention or even cross a street without being threatened to get kicked first

love going "our HAB is getting attacked! everybody turn around and defend it or our team is screwed and we'll lose this match!"

and you look on the map and none of their green player icon arrows are moving or even turning around

then you go "everybody turn around and return to the HAB or I'm going to have to start kicking people"

and then you watch all the arrows turn around and start moving lol

2
test822OP•

Your role as SL is not to manually direct your squad, it is to be the backbone of the team, doing the work to setup the FOB infrastructure.

so I guess I should be avoiding SL and instead trying to be FTL. good to know I guess, I'll give that a try.

setting up respawn points and managing logistics

so spending 80% of the match driving around in a logi. okay looks like SL isn't for me. I'm also unsure how you're supposed to be able to call in arty strikes and strafing runs with your binocs if you're spending all your time driving a logi around. if the SL/FTL roles are really what you claim they are, then maybe FTL's should be the ones calling in strikes?

You shouldn't have to babysit your MG for your MG to know what they should be doing.

what magical game are you playing where your squadmembers all automatically know how to play their roles correctly? let me guess, your marksmen also magically hang in the back and actually support your squad instead of running off toward some random hill alone? tell me the name of this magical server.

record some gameplay footage of your squad's MG taking care of himself and I'll believe you. He must also be a random, and not on your steam friends list.

Your role as SL is not to manually direct your squad

SL's in real life have to direct their MG's where to set up, yes. people playing MG in this game are often terrible about keyholing or knowing where to bipod. this is why we get so many people complaining in this subreddit that "suppression doesn't work, MG's just get sniped instantly!", etc

0
jj-kun•

This is a videogame my dude. Ppl spend hundreds and thousands of hours in combat. No soldier has that.

3
test822OP•

that's kind of my point.

you can expect real soldiers to be able to handle themselves and know how to play their roles without having to micro-manage, but when you're leading pubbies, especially brand new players (which there are constantly a ton of) you sometimes have to guide them more, and you can't do this if you have to spend all your time driving a truck around.

1
ComradeHXPR v1.63•

Why would SL be the one to drive?

4
jj-kun•

I'm saying is that we play this videogame better then real soldiers and thus we don't need to tell everyone what to do. Newbies, maybe but cmon. A guy with 2k hrs will be fine no matter what.

1
PhoenixReborn•

You don't have to drive a truck to manage logistics. Ask for a volunteer to do one or two runs and direct them where to drop supplies. Use rallies when a logi truck isn't available. If you're setting up another base, either have the driver pick you up or go on foot and have them meet you. If it's a really long trek, consider asking a helicopter to pick you up and insert you somewhere safe. Squad leading is a lot to deal with and I'd be fine if there was some kind of system to designate builders. On the other hand you run the risk of FTL syndrome where people just ask for it to build their personal emplacements.

It seems like you have very little faith in your squad's ability to just play the game. I don't know how you can operate like that. A squad should not need babysitting. Give simple directions like "hold on this point and form a defensive perimeter", or "push on this point, hold your fire unless engaged". Place a HAB and maybe a few emplacements if the situation calls for it and then move out. Don't be building sandcastles.

2
test822OP•

A squad should not need babysitting.

like 50% of my squadmembers are always brand new players because this game keeps burning out vets, probably due to a lot of the stuff I mentioned in my OP. I wish you were right but you aren't.

1
MentalTwo2849•

While it's kind of hard to say what role you should play as everyone has their own way of playing and squadleading, in general I would say that if you want to micromanage your squad as an SL, don't be an infantry SL, but an armor SL. Generally at least 1 infantry SL needs to be constantly managing the logistics of the team. If not 1, then every infantry SL (typically 2, maybe 3 people) need to share this responsibility. This often doesn't happen which is why we see so many posts in here about shitty games. The current meta is more FOBs=better game.

When I SL, I'm too busy to direct my squadmates for the most part. When I FTL, I'm constantly running mini-missions with a few teammates I pull into it.

​

Yes, not everyone is going to be good in this game and know how to play their role. This is not for the SL to "fix". Could you imagine having to babysit a player like that, no way. If you find yourself "herding cats", you're already in for a shitty time.

​

I would encourage you to stop trying to take real world situations and apply them to this game as it just won't work. The variables are just not the same.

1
BucketOfHurt•

I don't really understand how you can just give up like this. I can't even count how many times I've successfully applied real life situations and tactics to good attacks in-game. If people don't follow me I warn them once, then I kick them 20 seconds later if they still haven't started running. Then the whole rest of the squad understands they should not fuck around. Speed and initiative is key. Getting close and personal with the whole squad before they've even realised you're there is the ultimate way to attack.

3
MentalTwo2849•

I don't really understand how you can just give up like this.

What have I given up on?

I can't even count how many times I've successfully applied real life situations and tactics to good attacks in-game.

I guess I think of it in a different way. I don't try to apply one set of rules to a very different scenario. I don't take lessons from real life and apply them to this game. Instead, I look at the rules of this game and make up my own lessons.

​

If people don't follow me I warn them once, then I kick them 20 seconds later if they still haven't started running.

Is this a tactic you took from a real life situation? /s
I agree, that can be a good tactic.

​

Speed and initiative is key. Getting close and personal with the whole squad before they've even realised you're there is the ultimate way to attack.

I would agree with all of this, though I'd replace the words "whole squad" with "teammates". I don't really understand how this is related to the topic at hand.

2
AnotherLightInTheSky•

I always say something like "guys guys guys...NINJA mode...we are sneaky ninjas...let's all open up on these dudes at the same time...sneak in reallll close"

When it works it's so satisfying!

:D

1
memesr2gud•

Look bro watch good squad leaders on twitch or YouTube play... They aren't in a logi 80% of the time.

Go watch Doctor Hammer play, the guy is a bit of a cunt but fuck me is he a good SL.

1
Doormat--•

There is a workaround. If you have an experienced player in your squad they can drive the logi around and setup FOBs on your behalf. Promote them to SL temporarily whenever they are ready to drop a FOB. The squadmate can then get a crewman lead kit off the logi, place the FOB and then promote you back to SL. Works well enough if you have an ammo box nearby.

1
test822OP•

If you have an experienced player in your squad

that's a big "if" these days, and an even bigger "if" that they're a kit that can afford to be away from the front

Promote them to SL temporarily whenever they are ready to drop a FOB.

this is kind of a bad workaround, I wish it didn't rely on this. the last thing I'd want is for my squad to get hijacked by some malicious troll or pubbie.

1
Doormat--•

The absolute majority of Squad players nowadays are grateful if someone steps up and creates a squad. I promise they won't hijack your squad and will toss the SL kit back to you as soon as practically possible! Besides, you can transfer SL to the players you know or to your friends.

Malicious players will ruin your day in less obvious ways (feeding intel to the enemy team, draining ammo points by switching kits, wasting vehicle assets etc.)

The workaround is bad, I agree, but it works and it might be useful in some situations.

In one case we lost our assault HAB and rally, SL could not respawn but four squadmates including me were still alive and FOB had construction points for another HAB. We followed through with the temporary SL transfer trick and in three minutes our SL was with us, new HAB was set up and the assault continued.

1
gamer_osh•

I know it is possible to create a specific “logi squad”, but this rarely gets done...

So what’s stopping you from creating a “logi squad?”

1
test822OP•

because I don't play squad to drive logis back and forth

1
gamer_osh•

So when you say there should be a dedicated logi squad, what you really mean is somebody else should form a dedicated logi squad. Either way, artificially creating a dedicated logi section doesn’t solve the problem—someone on the team still needs to be willing to lead the logi squad (which, if they wanted to, they could do anyway).

1
test822OP•

Either way, artificially creating a dedicated logi section doesn’t solve the problem

it does in post scriptum. people who enjoy playing the game that way fill it up all the time, and it frees up regular SL's to focus on combat.

1
gamer_osh•

Hmm... perhaps - I can see how having it built in might cause people to actually do it more often than if it weren’t built in... sort of a “supply creates demand” type situation.

2
BucketOfHurt•

You're not incorrect.FOB/HAB building is the most boring part of SL'ing. And when you've placed thousands; your seething hatred for it just grows.
If you have the mental capacity: micro-managing is the way to go. People who disagree don't have that mental capacity or authority, meaning they fail at micro-managing even if they try.
You should usually not drive yourself though, unless you're already driving with your whole squad inside anyways, or you're on the way to pick them up..Well... sometimes you do have to drive with one guy a bit aways to put up a FOB/HAB, but then we're back to the first point on FOB/HABs: I hate them so fucking much

0
test822OP•

word. I want to play this game for the combat, not for spawn point builder simulator.

1