Source
r/atheism•
WhoMouse

"The evidence is overwhelming even if it is blind faith" How am I supposed to respond to this?

So, emailing with my dad has succeeded in finally getting a real discussion going (hooray), but I've now come up against this email (warning, really long) and am attempting to go through it bit by bit. I'm asking for help with some specifics, but if you read it and see something else that should be included in the response, please let me know!

First:

As a matter of interest they have taken every one of the prophecies and unless the time frame has not happened they have all been true. Also, science and historians have used the Bible in numerous ways to timeline and date some findings which further proves that the writings are true. It is the most widely read book in world, the most translated and with a few exceptions the oldest written.

What in the world can I say to this prophesy thing? Ridiculous. What can I say about the widely read/oldest thing besides calling out the argument from tradition? What is older?

Next:

You also bring up an interesting idea on IF there is a god he would not want us or send us to go to an eternity of torture. Good point and you are right in that God doesn't send anyone to hell or an eternity of torture. Each individual makes that decision for themselves. It is like if I decide I'm not going to make a decision or I decide not to act on something.

I just need a simple argument against this, because my brain has apparently stopped working today.

Third:

How can faith stop intellectual curiosity? There will always be that drive to know more and to attempt to prove it. I will venture to say that faith in something helps to further intellectual curiosity. The journey is what is important in life and life is all about the journey that we are all taking.

I know I've seen videos that explain this well, and I really should have saved them, but if you know anything that explains this well, please point me to it!

Last:

I've explained that I go to church with them occasionally not because I'm searching for anything that I can get there, but because I love and support my family (all of whom are extremely active at the same church). He completely rejects this idea and tells me that no, I'm really searching. How do I tell him he's being an ass by assuming to tell me what I'm really thinking without seeming like an ass myself?

Posted Jun 7, 2011, 12:17 AM UTC

831
Zeike•

You also bring up an interesting idea on IF there is a god he would not want us or send us to go to an eternity of torture. Good point and you are right in that God doesn't send anyone to hell or an eternity of torture. Each individual makes that decision for themselves. It is like if I decide I'm not going to make a decision or I decide not to act on something.

If god is omniscient, he would have known exactly which people would eventually end up in hell when he created the universe. By continuing to create the universe in that fashion god has condemned them. If he is also omnipotent, he could have also chosen to create a universe similar in all respects, except those people would be spared eternal suffering. Therefore, god has chosen to condemn millions of souls to eternal torment in hell.

3
WhoMouseOP•

Well, I argued that god created hell in the first place, and he came back with this, but I like how you've phrased it better, I think, so I guess I'll try again!

1
alanita•

Not to mention: (In your dad's argument) God created hell, but he didn't have to. He could have created a separate realm where "sinners" go after death to learn the "true" way, rather than punishing them. Or he could have created a system of reincarnation, where "sinners" just keep coming back until they get it right. Or whatever, the point is, he made that fuckin place. Dad's god is The Man from the South.

1
ds2k7Atheist•

  1. Prophecies: it's easy to predict events which have already happened. Name a prophecy which has not yet come to pass, tell me when it will happen and exactly what will happen, and we'll see if you're right.

  2. Oldest written - assertion without evidence. Dates of the bible are - old testament, up to about 12th century BC, new testament between 50-150AD.

  3. People choose to go to hell. OK, you would have to choose to disobey commandments, commit sins. But if I want to boil a young goat in it's mother's milk, what's the justification for eternity of hellfire?

  4. Intellectual curiosity - Faith in something means believing with all of your being that one thing is true. If you maintain that belief, you will not be able to evaluate facts/information/experiments which question that belief. Belief can alter perceptions, also. Read up on Scientific Method; basically you can't believe something and accept only those things which support it when so much does not.

  5. "I go to church not because I am searching for anything I cannot get elsewhere, but because I love and support my family." Also of note: "I go to church because that is where you are. If you were going to a strip club, or a crack den on a sunday morning, I would go there with you. Not to see the naked ladies or smoke the crack, but to be with you."

2
WhoMouseOP•

  1. Pretty much what I was thinking, but how he phrased it blew my mind (in a bad way)

  2. Between you and alantia, I have now got it covered

  3. So I should go with the "would you lock up your child in the basement for the rest of their lives for anything?" line of questioning?

  4. Hopefully between what you said and what I know mixed with what wiki says I can put together a coherent response to that. (coherent here meaning I can get it through to him)

  5. This is fantastic. Thanks.

1
grandpa•

Here is a good list of failed biblical prophecies. See what he has to say about that.

2
WhoMouseOP•

I'd seen that before (or at least one similar), and completely forgotten about it. That should prove interesting.

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nautimike•

Here's a Wikipedia article on ancient texts that lists at least 50 texts older than the Torah(old testament).

2
WhoMouseOP•

Holy crap. I've not done a lot of research on the ancient text stuff, but that's a lot of conflicting evidence right there. How to they convince people like my father to repeat such crap? (rhetorical question...I understand the indoctrination, I'm just having trouble breaking through my dad's enough to teach him fact from fiction)

2
xoites•

with a few exceptions the oldest written.

With a few exceptions The San Diego Chargers won the Superbowl...

Actually this could argue against it being accurate and more for why so many are indoctrinated.

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WhoMouseOP•

While he may respond better to the Chiefs, that is a nice simple way of making that point. Thanks!

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alanita•

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/691537/Chinese-writing/255828/History

1
WhoMouseOP•

Brilliant! With an effective site to cite as well...

1
alanita•

bows

No matter how many times a day someone calls me brilliant, it always makes me blush.

Edit: formatting. And now I blush for a completely different reason...

1
flotiste•

If God created me in his image, he knew that I would demand evidence and then reject him. He then knew that he would send me to hell for creating me this way. That makes him the most cruel and terrible dictator imaginable.

1
SuperNinKenDo•

First point:

Jesus prophesised that the rapture and apocalypse would happen in the life time of his contemporaries.

Unless your father thinks that one of Jesus contemporaries is still alive today, this is a major prophesy that did not come true.

Second point:

So by his definition then, North Korea is just as free a nation as any other because people have the choice between disobeying the State and being tortured to death via labour camps, and being good little citizens and hopefully avoiding the state's wrath?

Third point:

Faith is the belief in something regardless of evidence. If you were to hold faith, what possible reason is there to pursue evidence?

Not only that, but faith is responsible for the distruction of curiosity.

If we were to go solely on faith, we would still believe that the Sun revolved around the Earth, it's as simple as that.

Last point:

Just stop going to Church?

1
WhoMouseOP•

Ooh - I really like the North Korea parallel. I will bring that one up for sure.

I did stop going to church for a while, but my mother works at the church, my dad's an elder, and both of my brothers are there as often as possible. Their life is at that church, and if I refused to go there, I'd never see them. It's not like it's harmful to me in any way, it just screws with their perception. If it continues, I will. That seems drastic at this point though.

2
SuperNinKenDo•

Wow, your family really IS heavily religious huh...

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WhoMouseOP•

Yeah, just a bit. How I ended up like I have must be mind-blowing to them.

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SuperNinKenDo•

Just goes to show your strength of intellect =]

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M0b1u5•

Give up; your Dad's a retard.

If religious people had open minds there would be no religious people.

0
WhoMouseOP•

In general, he's a pretty smart guy. He's just part of the masses that let themselves be indoctrinated. While I am fairly certain I'm smarter than him in most of the ways we have to measure intelligence, I'm not going to write him off now.

I wanted to be able to discuss these things with him. To get it all out in the open, and show him how I view the world. If it ultimately leads to him just ignoring the subject, fine, but at least I got my thoughts out there, and he knows he can always ask.

But thanks. I do understand the frustration inherent in that statement, and were he not my father, I would have given up before even starting, since I already know his views and do not expect to change them.

1