[DQXI] I've been making an attempt at grinding to beat the black dragon with Stronger Monsters. Here's some of my notes.
After 15 hours, I achieved level 20 and made a run at the black dragon to get an idea of its hit values and how much more grinding I'm going to need to do to be able to beat it.
Yes, I've been doing my best to grind up "legit" without switching back to 2D mode on a save later in the game for "new game +". I've clearly gone mad.
With all of the best gear available from Heliodor and the Heliodor region, it's going to take a lot more grinding than a mere level 20. A lot more.
Notes:
The black dragon's stats are not the same as the black dragons seen later in the game. Its attack power is notably lower, at around ~140 or ~150 instead of 262. It's also got an absolutely atrocious agility stat, meaning that you have a very good chance at going first every turn.
The black dragon's moves:
- Standard attack. Hits for approximately 160.
- Double-bite. Hits for approximately 95-105 at level 20, twice.
- Tail swing. Automatic critical hit for approximately 140-155(Needs more testing to get the range).
- Roar. Stuns. Basically wastes a turn for both you and the dragon.
- Assesses the situation and does nothing. This appears to occur somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 of the time in this particular battle.
- I did not see its fire breath - this may have been replaced by the waste-a-turn to make "assesses the situation" extremely common.
Erik has infinite HP as a guest member and it'll probably be fantastic when he takes a double-bite hit for you, but he can't do more than chip damage.
Damage calculations for physical attacks in DQ11 work like so: (Attack/2 - Defense/4)*Range + [0,1]. Where the range for normal attacks is 95% to 105%. So, if an enemy's defense is 2x your attack, you can only do chip damage unless you crit. Critical hits always ignore defense and hit for your full attack power.
At level 20, with 81 attack, I can't pierce the dragon's defense. Even if it was the normal dragon, I would need an attack value of 83(due to its defense of 165) for basic attacks to pierce its defense and start doing real damage instead of chip. This means that Dragon Slash does 0 or 2 damage + 10, because dragon slash does basic attack (damage*2) + 10.
I haven't been able to find out the stat modifications that stronger monsters applies with a casual google search, but I'll probably make a note of the point at which I finally pierce the black dragon's defenses.
Due to the way spell damage functions(It can't be reduced by defense, only by natural resistance, which is usually a % modifier), Zap is likely to be much more efficient than physical attacks(At 0 Mag. Might, it does ~36 base damage. At the mag. might cap for the spell, ~136).
The fight will likely be very RNG until the Luminary's HP exceeds 200(Around level 26 or 27), due to the double-bite attack being an RNG OHKO before then. I'll test the damage output of Zap when I have the spare skill points(at level 21), and then test at around level 26-28 to see if Dragon Slash sufficiently pierces its defenses, or if Zap is the way to go, because MP is likely not going to be a real issue due to having an inventory full of (20) Single Phials. If I have to level up a lot more, Gigaslash may in fact be the highest DPS.
The black dragon will likely be an easy fight if I go all the way to 30, because Moreheal is more than powerful enough to keep up with the black dragon's hardest hits, and it's very likely that I'll be able to pierce its defenses by then, either with Zap or normal attacks and dragon slash. Fully healing for 12MP and one turn is a lot better than healing for ~80 for 6MP.
EXP to level up increases by somewhere around 300-400ish per level past level 11 or so. 18-19 and 19-20 took approximately an hour a piece to level up on the most efficient monster. The most efficient monster, incidentally, is lamplings, who become one-shot-kills around level 12 with a copper sword, and give 10exp each with the Elevating Vest. Rest at the campsite to night time, head east, and fight lamplings heading north(using the horse to go faster between battles to extend night time). At the north end of the road, go in circles to kill lamplings and platypunks(9exp w/ vest), because heading up and down the road is less efficient than around the plateau due to higher respawn rates. When daytime comes around, ride back to the campsite and sleep to nightfall again. Around level 16, enemies can only do 1 damage to you, except for the lamplings frizz spell(7-10) and the hammerhood's desperate attack(16-18).
Grinding to a sufficient level to fight the black dragon also means that I managed to get a full 8 bunny tails from bunicorns, with 763 kills before moving on to lamplings. I also got like 40 leather hoods, and 99 single phials and lamplights, so far. Also, several fine furs from platypunks, etc. etc.
I'm going to continue to spend an hour or two each day leveling up to find out what's necessary to finally beat the black dragon legitimately, the first time you meet it. Wish me luck.
tl;dr: Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards is inverted in Dragon Quest, when you actually want to hunt a dragon.
Posted Jul 18, 2020, 6:05 AM UTC · edited
I believe the best source of damage would actually be Frost Fangs with the +25 strength panel.
Though you would need to use all your available skill points to get there and it would take until level 26 or so. Gigaslash is available a level or 2 later, isn't as MP efficient, and is barely any stronger at that point. I don't know how much HP he has though so MP might not be a factor
Before you have enough skill points for the +25 strength panel or Gigaslash, Zap and Frost Fangs are probably around the same damage
After some testing at level 21, Zap hits for ~48-50. Its minimum damage is 36 at level 18, and it gains about 4 points of damage every level from magical might scaling, until level 42, where it caps at 136.
Additionally, you break the dragon's defense at 100 attack power(Meaning that it has 200 defense exactly on stronger monsters). This means that the 119 attack power we will have at level 30 will do ~10 damage with basic attacks, and ~30 with dragon slash. We could purchase the +10 attack power to swords, but 10 damage to dragon slash only puts it at 40, which is decent for 2MP, but not really the damage values we're looking for.
So Zap's ~85 damage at level 30 will be significantly better than dragon slash(and it will have roughly equivalent damage output to frost fang, for 2MP less). Additionally, Dragon Slash will gain 4 points of damage per level, basically equal to Zap, making it effectively useless until we significantly over-level the damage range of Zap, which should be entirely unnecessary.
The only problem will be whether or not the hero's 112 MP at level 30 can hold up to the guzzle of 8MP/turn to attack and 12MP to heal(Assuming the black dragon has roughly +20% to health, just like defense, it should have 1250-1300ish HP). If it isn't possible with 20 phials, fishing for crits with standard attacks (With +2% crit and +3% crit from swords and swordmastery) during pep may be an option, because we'll crit for 140-150.
Gigaslash will notably not be an option, because Zap does exactly the same damage and scaling for half the MP in the level range in which both gigaslash and Zap scale damage output with your stats(31-42).
So we have three routes to take when level 30 is finally achieved:
Zap's damage at level 30 will be ~75. Frost Fangs will be ~100. The 2 extra MP is worth that much extra damage imo
He has 25% resistance to ice, so they'll do equal damage, if Zap isn't doing more at 30.:((Stat blocked ripped off of the gamefaqs forums)
That's taking the resistance into account. 135*.75