If a person's right to life begins at conception, and a woman becomes a mother the moment she is pregnant, do you consider women who have had miscarriages but no successful pregnancies, to be mothers?
Posted Jul 28, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC · edited
Who is the gatekeeper deciding how someone identifies?
Is motherhood about self-identification?
Is it not? Do you think a woman who adopts a child can not identify herself as a mother?
Yes. For example, someone who gives birth and puts the child up for adoption may or may not identify as a mother.
Is motherhood about self-identification?
It is a significant component
I identify as an attack helicopter
I identify as an attack helicopter
I am not going to police how you identify. I might have some expectations about your skills and abilities that might not be accurate though.
Ps. Your downvotes are not going to impact my ability to post in this sub.
I think so, when we’re talking about woman who aren’t actively being the mother to a kid.
Some women don’t want to be considered mothers if they had a miscarriage, even if they wanted to keep it. I’ve actually heard some women consider it very disrespectful when that that motherhood is thrust upon them when they don’t want it. Some see themselves as mothers if that happens. Some women who had a kid but put it up for adoption or otherwise isn’t the legal mother don’t want to be considered mothers.
How is that anyone else's decision but the woman's? I know several women who have had miscarriages. Some consider themselves mothers, and some do not. It's up to THEM, not random other people.
Yes.
How tho? Elaborate please.
She carried a child, that makes her a mother. A miscarriage is just the death of that child.
Once a mother, always a mother.
But she never experienced motherhood. I think that makes sense if an adult or a young child passes away because in this case motherhood took place, but in miscarriages motherhood was never experienced.
On a personal level I agree with you. However, several women I know lost their children while the pregnancy was incredibly advanced, and they were devastated.
It is absolutely not up to me or anyone else to decide whether or not those women were mothers; that's a decision they get to make.
If she knew she was pregnant, she experienced motherhood.
She had a child. There is nothing else required to experience motherhood. Certainly there doesn't need to be anything else involved for her to love and be attached to her child.
Even if its at a really early stage when the women may not know she is pregnant?
Yes. Having a child makes you a mother. The experience of every mother varies, of course, but she conceived a child, she's a mother.
If she didn't know she was pregnant, then she would not know she is a mother, but that does not change the fact that she is one.
Knowledge of or experience of you child does not change the reality that you reproduced. You had a child, you are a mother or father based on how you participated.
We celebrated my wife's first mother's day before our son was born, so absolutely.
Exactly. Your wife chose to carry to term, that being the case, that's your child in there as soon as she made that choice. I'm glad you had the choice!
Biological realities are not subjective choices.
Ah, but they are. The safe legal option of terminating an unwanted pregnancy is as real as the biological function for which it was created.
Killing a child does not change the biological fact that the woman is his/her mother. She might not want to assume that role or identify as a mother but she still is one.
I'm pro-choice but I think yes, assuming she wanted to keep it
Yeah, whether she actually wanted the child or not is prabably what makes the difference for most people.
That's the entire difference actually....
I agree, and I expect most pro--choice people to agree with this as well. But according to prolife people, it doesn't and shouldn't make a difference whether a child is wanted or not, abortion is still murder to them, which is why I wanted to hear their view.
They say that, but I don't believe they actually think that. It's a powerful catch phrase for derailing conversations, but even when they try to pretend they mean it, they have mentally tie themselves into knots in order to explain it.
But you're right that they don't care about what a woman want (or need). Caring about someone while trying to take away their personal sovereignty would contradict their efforts.
If a woman with no prior children miscarries at 12 weeks, can she call herself a mother?
Yes. From a biological perspective: The embryo/fetus is an organism. Organisms come from at least one “parent” organism who reproduced it. In this case, the woman is (one of) the embryo’s parent organisms. And since she’s a female, she’s considered the mother. So she’s still a mother even if she doesn’t want to call herself one.
Yes. From a biological perspective: The embryo/fetus is an organism. Organisms come from at least one “parent” organism who reproduced it. In this case, the woman is (one of) the embryo’s parent organisms. And since she’s a female, she’s considered the mother. So she’s still a mother even if she doesn’t want to call herself one.
This is really more of a quasi-biological argument. It provides a biological rationale for why a woman who has had one pregnancy and no live births could be considered. There is no purely biological reason that states she must. In biomedical terminology she would be gravida 1 para 0
I’m not sure what your point is when you say that she’s “gravida 1 para 0,” unless you’re suggesting that:
the field of medicine considers that classification exclusive from being a mother, or
medicine doesn’t consider anyone a mother
I might be misunderstanding you. Please clarify (and backup your claim with a citation).
There is no purely biological reason that states she must.
I’m not sure why this is relevant, but biologists already call parent organisms the mother or father all the time. Here is a scientific study/article referring to female parent organisms as mothers. You can find many others like it.
Dictionaries also provide a biological definition of mother that can apply to pregnant women:
the female parent of a plant or animal
I might be misunderstanding you. Please clarify (and backup your claim with a citation).
You might be misunderstanding.
Dictionaries also provide a biological definition of mother that can apply to pregnant women
If your position is that she CAN refer to herself as a mother then on that point we agree. If your position is that biology dictates she MUST be considered a mother, we do not agree.
Agreed.
In my opinion, yes she can call herself a mother.
Prolife. Yes she would be a mother
Never been pregnant, but if I would happen to be in the future from BC failure then I'm getting an abortion. It would be an insult to call me a mother before and after my abortion.
Being a mother is a whole experience, not just having the luck of RNG in having a fertilized egg implant.
I consider myself a mother in other aspects, such as from raising turkeys, chickens, ducks, geese, etc. and caring for rescued pets.
I consider myself a mother in other aspects, such as from raising turkeys, chickens, ducks, geese, etc. and caring for rescue pets.
Same.
Though just for my super awesome doggo. Who just happens to be...
My favorite "person" on the planet!
I have a big coffee mug that says "Dog Mom". It's my fave :)
My MIL has the same mug!
I got my hubby a mug that's supposed to be from our dog to him. It starts out with, "Dear Dad..."
Talking about how he misses him when he's away and that if anyone ever tried to replace his daddy, he'd pee on the guy's shoes. If that didn't work he'd bite him in the ass and then it's signed, "Love, Kane"
It's awesome!😋
Isn't is cool that our pets have such great "personalities?"
:)
Uber cool 😋
Follow up question, if proven pregnant, should she be able to claim money from Child Benefit, and should you be obligated to register the death officially?
Yes to the child benefit, and I'm unsure about the second one because it becomes part of her medical history so a death certificate seems redundant.
Why? A “child” just died, their death should be recorded.
Their death is recorded, as a miscarriage. That's why I think it would be redundant to issue both. However there are countries (like the UK) where after 24 weeks there's a "pregnancy loss certificate". I guess it depends on how much government bureaucracy you want. The pregnancy loss certificate could be issued pretty easily, for me, seems redundant in bureaucratic terms.
Why? In your eyes a child died, why do they not deserve their death to be recorded like any other child? Or are you admitting a difference?
I don’t want any government bureaucracy in this, I’m pro-choice, but your side should be consistent. If life starts from conception then the same rules needs to apply from conception. A woman has to mention the death of a child to the government and be able to claim 8 weeks of child death money even if she miscarried at 6 weeks.
There are some insane laws about this being pushed in Poland, I believe, with women potentially being investigated for murder for spontaneous miscarriages. Most pregnancies end before the mother knows she's pregnant, so how they would even enforce this, I have no idea.
Yeah the idea is horrifying but also impossible to implement.
Motherhood is a whole experience, not just a simple matter of conceiving or having a baby.
Biologically yes I would, HOWEVER, if she was to abandon a baby or have it taken away by the state then I wouldn’t consider that person a mother in the traditional sense.
My friend adopted a child and I fully consider her the mother since the biological mother has never been in the picture.
I don’t agree with the implication that those who adopt aren’t “mothers”
Yes. I am one of those mothers.
Considering 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage, that is a lot of women people are claiming to be mothers. Women are only mothers if they want to be and that is how it should be.
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Yes.
So? We're not talking about anthropology or medicine in terms of identifying. We're talking about the fact that PLs seem bound and determined to force people to identify as things they don't want to.
Where does it say that ? Read OP’s question. It’s talking about pregnancy/conception — seems pretty biological to me. Pregnant women are mothers. Whether they identify as such or not. You and I are humans, whether we identify as such or not.
Except the woman's personal identification matters far more than what someone else thinks.
We are in fact talking about society; the question is addressed to pro lifers, who have a habit of ignoring what women want in favor of what pro lifers want.
You continue to prove that point.
If a woman who has had a miscarriage does not identify as a mother, then she is not one, no matter what you think.
Her biology doesn't actually enter the equation here.
I don't concider one to be a mother if their baby was still-born, miscarried or aborted. This concept was totally new to me. She stops being a mother at the moment her children die.
Seriously?
That's ridiculous. If I lost my 2-year-old daughter I'm all of a sudden NOT a mother?
I'm willing to bet there are plenty of mothers that would have a bone to pick with you on that one!
Yeah, probably.
That's SUPER offensive to mothers who've lost children, to disease, accident or anything really.
You are aware that empathy is a thing, right?
I am.
So my aunt would not longer be a mother considering my cousin was killed in an accident when she was 18 by your logic.
Yeah.
I don't necessarily agree that you stop being a mother or even a parent if your child dies.
That's because you don't.
Talk about PLs lack of empathy. I'm sure there are plenty of mothers who've lost children that would be VERY offended by that.
Hell, I'm not even a mother and I'm offended by that!
I don't concider one to be a mother if their baby was still-born, miscarried or aborted. This concept was totally new to me. She stops being a mother at the moment her children die.
I don’t acknowledge you as the gatekeeper of who is or is not a mother. In fact I think most people capable of minimal empathy would recognize the harm of classifying motherhood in the way that you do.
One of the dumbest things I read today.
Agreed. So, when my aunt lost her only son when he died at 47 of an aneurysm, she stopped being a mother?
That's some ridiculous bullshit.
Sure is. Seems like a troll anyways.
Just wanted to say something controversial to get us all fired up.
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Or all week.
I think motherhood is less connected to whether you are pregnant or have given birth and more connected to whether you develop a connection while raising a living thing over a long period of time.
Someone who raises a dog from they are a puppy until death is qualifiable as a mother to me.
Someone gives birth to a baby and then immediatly sets it up for an adoption is less of a mother.
At least in my personal philosophy. Legal definitions of the word are probably different.
Yay!
This describes me...To a "T"
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