Muslim weightlifter fights to protect her modesty
msnbc.msn.com/id/43527580/ns/world_news-ameri...
msnbc.msn.comPosted Jun 27, 2011, 6:07 PM UTC
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msnbc.msn.comI may be downvoted into oblivion, but hey.
Two of her passions have rules, which conflict in this case.
Choices: life is full of them, some of them are hard and require sacrifice. Maybe the rules are right, maybe they are wrong, but that's what they currently are. Wrong for some is right for others.
yada yada ad nauseam.
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Which is why she's trying to have an exception made. She's not calling them sexist, bigoted, etc.
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Right... just because the rules are currently one way doesn't mean they can't be changed. At one point, women weren't allowed in the Olympics at all.
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Poor comparison. Apples and oranges.
-6
Yeah, and then someone else comes along and says that's not appropriate and wants other changes made, and someone else disagrees and wants other changes made. Why doesn't she go to her imam (or whatever they're called) and get his approval to participate in the sport as it exists now? Yeah, I'm an insensitive prick.
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You're misguided and believe that set rules are always the correct rules. Is there any sport that hasn't evolved and changed rules for various reasons? All things in life should be open for debate and all reasonable calls for change should be considered.
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Good luck with that if you want to have religious beliefs and traditions integrated into sports. The requested change isn't because of preventing injuries or enhancing the sport, it's about religious beliefs. That crap has no place in sports. Go ahead and downvote me into karma hell if it offends you. The fact that she's Muslim is irrelevant--if she was a Scientologist and wanted a big "S" on her chest, I'd feel the same way. This is a secular sport and if you start bending over backwards to accommodate religious beliefs, there will be no end to it.
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Hey man I'm with you, in the 60s we got rid of segregation and allowed the black man study at our schools. We show them a little love and now they turn around and fuck our daughters, marry our sisters, dominate our sports and become our presidents.
This shit is getting out of control.
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Fuck you. Like I said this isn't about a fundamental right that she's being denied. I never said keep Muslims out of sports. I said that changes to rules in sports should be made for the sport's sake--safety, improved performance, etc. Religion and other BS that is outside the sport has no place being inside the sport. Now go take your strawman and skull-fuck him.
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Yea you are a prick, but on top of that your argument holds no water. And Imams can't just change the rules.
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Why not? Isn't that what they do? I still maintain that requests to change the rules for reasons that have nothing to do with the sport are bullshit. She can choose to participate or not, but this sport (or any other sport) has no obligation to change to support anyone's religious beliefs.
0
When I was in High School, I couldn't run a race with a watch, necklace, hell even a livestrong band or anything but the uniform, socks, and sneakers (compression pants/shirt under the uniform if it was cold was ok). Nobody could for that matter. Guess what we all did?
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Kept your hijab on and did it anyway?
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Something like that
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I may be downvoted into oblivion, but hey.
Come on guys, stop doing this. It doesn't matter if you get up or downvoted. It's not a competition. Don't shield yourself before commenting.
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What's right about the rule? She tried to get around it in a perfectly reasonable way and the response was, "No. Why? Because we said so and fuck you, that's why."
The purpose of the rule is to see locking of joints, she wore stuff you could see locking of joints in.
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I don't think it's a horrible allowance to make. Keeping her religion's expression of physical modesty is important to her/them and the alteration on the uniform would work.
Anyways, I agree with you.
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Choices: life is full of them, some of them are hard and require sacrifice. Maybe the rules are right, maybe they are wrong, but that's what they currently are. Wrong for some is right for others.
Yea man, its like, rules can't ever be changed man its like they're all written in stone and shit and that's just the way it is, you should like never try to change anything...just like, you know, accept it and be at peace
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Rules changes all the time, why not this time?
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I may be downvoted into oblivion
Yep.
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I only downvoted because you asked me to. Not because of your opinion. You're not writing a fucking novel, I don't need a preface.
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Power to her. She seems to be a pretty awesome role model.
I think it's ridiculous that they won't let her compete wearing long sleeves. There is no way they wouldn't be able to see a lockout in spandex or similar material.
I'm quite surprised (and disappointed) at the people saying she should leave the rules as is or leave the sport. The rule change she is asking for is not changing one bit about the lifts or the competition, she's just asking for them to let her wear some goddamned clothes.
And for all the people saying tights could potentially assist her lifts, it's not that hard for her to send the fabric to be approved beforehand( you know, the way all singlets have to be approved), but they didn't give her that option, they just said we don't care, go away.
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Lockout is hard enough to judge without the elbow being covered. Even in spandex it would be more difficult.
The rules are the rules for a reason. If they were to allow this, everyone would end up covering their elbows.
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I'm not a muslim, but it seems to me that a sad percentage of the comments in this thread show a stunning degree of religious and cultural intolerance.
As Voltaire once said, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
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Cultural and religious intolerance having nothing to do with it.
You want to play the sport? Follow the rules. Feel free to be Muslim or whatnot. The rule isn't "Muslims can't compete" (that would be religious intolerance) the rule is that "You must wear such-and-such-clothes" for a variety of reasons. She can't wear her clothes just like I wouldn't be able to wear a giant fur coat because I was cold that day.
I don't see what Voltaire has to do with this. She is saying what she wants to say, which is why we're reading the article.
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Why are people downvoting this comment? Wtf Reddit?
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Why should we tolerate intolerance?
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Tolerance: non-judgmental attitude of mind that others should be free to lead different lifestyles or hold different beliefs.
How is her dressing in a way that she believes is appropriate in any way intolerant? She's not forcing anyone else to do the same. Why should she be forced to conform to other cultural norms of attire if it has no significant impact on the actual performance of the sport?
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But why should they have to go through the trouble of approving fabric and other such nonsense, just to accommodate her idiotic beliefs?
I am a believer in the Lord God FuzzyNuggets, who will send me to everlasting hell if I don't wear a stuffed chicken on my head at all times in public. I demand that you change the rules to permit the honourable tradition of stuffed chicken wearing.
If you don't like the rules, don't enter the competition. It is unreasonable to expect the world to conform to your delusions.
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I don't think there is a rule against headgear. Again, you wearing a stuffed chicken doesn't contradict any part of the sport does it? You still have to lift the weight with proper form, and your chicken doesn't offer you assistance.
Laziness( in sport or all places) is no excuse for intolerance, which is essentially what this boils down to.
And your last two sentences assume that rules never change. Are you saying the sport of weight lifting has never had a rule change? Are you going to use this argument every time someone proposes to change a rule?
No sir, that is not a valid argument. If you oppose the rule change, then you must argue it so, your current position just compromises the integrity of the sport when the rules arbitrarily ban potentially good athletes.
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My position is that religion is not a valid reason for changing the rules. What's more, I'd say medieval edicts on female attire have no place in a modern, civilized society and rather than being accommodated, their perpetuation should be discouraged at every opportunity.
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It's a rule about a uniform, not how the sport is performed. Please keep it within the discussion or go back to r/atheism and whine there.
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You do realize that that this hardline stance only exacerbates the problem? You're further excluding muslim women from western society, as opposed to allowing them to quietly integrate. How do you expect them to adopt western ideals and practices(which is what you want, yes?) if you exclude them completely?
Moreover, the issue sets the precedent for female athletes in other countries who BY LAW have to follow certain dress codes. These women have zero choice in the matter and face serious criminal prosecution if they try to do otherwise. Current IWF policy condemns these women from participating. Does being cloistered in their oppressive countries help their situation any?
Most importantly however you, being a member of a modern civilized society that you uphold so highly,are expected to treat others with at least some smidgen of respect. No one is telling you to go hug a Muslim and memorize the Koran, but calling their beliefs idiotic and deluded is completely uncalled for.
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just to accommodate her idiotic beliefs
You have no right to judge her beliefs.
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Why not?
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It's her business.
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You have no right to judge whether or not I have the right to judge her beliefs.
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Welcome to Reddit, where every subreddit is r/atheism!
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While I can understand the nuances of both sides of this issue at the end of the day I don't care.
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Arn't these rules in place to see angles of the contestants arms/legs/butt?
Gotta play by the rules.
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Couldn't you see those angles fine in tights?
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A point of concern might be that the tights she is wearing could be assisting her lifts.
I didn't read the article and can't really care enough to research this though.
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The USAPL rules specifically disallows even Underarmor (a brand of spandex), so yes, this is a concern.
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Allow everyone to wear spandex and the playing field is still level.
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If they were regular tights and not some kind of specialized compression garment, I seriously doubt if there would be any real advantage. I wear tights and leggings all the time in fall and winter... doesn't help me do a thing! Except stay 1% warmer...
In sports where form is a huge priority (gymnastics, ballet, figure skating), athletes frequently wear leotards with sleeves and/or tights. It seems possible that these could be adapted somehow to prevent people feeling like they can't participate in a sport for religious/cultural reasons.
A lot of different sports do allow the uniform to be adapted for modesty, although you rarely see it at elite levels. There was this sprinter from Bahrain at the 2008 Olympics though. http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123073/2180604/2196424/080820_EX_Bahrain_EX.jpg
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Tights? You've got to be kidding me.
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[deleted]
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The hijab is more cultural than religious anyway.
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This is a hugely important point. Not making rules changes because of the religious beliefs of a competitor is one thing, but as more and more cultures join the western world we need to be culturally flexible. There is surely a way that contestants looking to maintain modesty can be allowed that while still keeping their outfits from providing any sort of competitive edge. This, "Play by our rules or get the hell out", attitude doesn't seem great for the sport. She isn't asking to use drugs or robot arms.
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Sadly this post didn't make me rofl. I only nodded in agreement :(
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Enlightenment first, rofls later.
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[deleted]
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But it should be tit-for-tat, their culture should be more flexible about it's customs too, especially when it comes to something as ridiculous as hijabs.
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But in this case, she is wearing it for religious reasons. In this case, the culture and the religion are one and the same. You can try and whitewash ridiculous ancient ideas all you want but it doesn't change anything, especially in this case. The secular world should not have to change any of its rules to cater to religious belief. Being tolerant only perpetuates the idea that there is something valid and redeeming about an outdated way of thinking.
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[deleted]
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I made that exact argument in another post about 16 year old ref who got fired for refusing to take off her hijab while refereeing and I got down-voted to the 6th circle of hell.
teach me your ways
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People must like me better.
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And my post to you was downvoted.
I also had a person (or people) trying to reset my password for the next 24 hours.
They must really like you better :(
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U mad?
-1
Hark! A voice of reason!
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I actually used to work with this lady a couple of years ago. She's 5 foot nothing and tiny. Never would have thought she was into lifting weights.
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"Lolololol what a fucking stupid religion. Dumb bitch should stop her fairy tales and focus on lifting because that's what should matter in her life."
-Fittit
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Finally someone who can put all the key points in one place. Bravo.
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-common sense
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She must have gotten really strong lifting all that bullshit.
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"In recent news muslim woman seeks change to bikini contest rules to allow the wearing of a hijab."
=/
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You can do it, just don't bitch when you come in last place.
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Thankfully the article includes citations:
"They have every incentive to broaden the reach of their sport … especially this heretofore excluded group,” said Nancy Hogshead-Maker, the WSF senior director of advocacy, referring to Muslim athletes
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Not kosher.
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Not halal either
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Is keto tho.
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Maybe she should stop believing in fairy tales and just lift some heavy ass weight like everybody else, they seem to do ok.
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As someone who has lurked christian and muslim forums on the internet, I can tell you 90%+ of posts are just people complaining about how their religious beliefs interfere with them enjoying life ("I can't masturbate or I'll go to hell!" or "I can't compete in national weight-lifting competitions because I can't show my legs!" or "I can't talk to my best friend anymore because he's an atheist!" and so on).
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When they get to heaven they'll be able to lift a billion kg and compete all the time... and everyone always wins.
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Have you been to r/atheism, too?
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Yup, and in r/atheism it's almost the same thing, people complaining about how other people's religious beliefs interfere with their lives ("I lost my faith and my religious wife is now threatening to divorce me and take the kids!" or "I'm gay and I'm terrified of coming out to my parents!" or "Anti-abortion protesters verbally assaulted my girlfriend on her way into the clinic!" and so on). In very religious areas religion seems to be harder on the non-believers than the believers.
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And, you know, the guy who posted about his nephew being beaten, literally beaten by his mother for coming out as an atheist. Just... just saying.
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Ok- at least you see that both sides do this. It's called being a whiny teenager.
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What a disrespectful and thoughtless comment.
"Fuck what she believes- lift weight, brahmina."
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I think you forget that secular countries treat their women far better than countries ruled by Islamic theocracies. Did you know the punishment for premarital sex in Saudi Arabia is death by stoning? The punishment is still carried out even if the women in question was raped. Do you think you could look a 12-year-old girl in eyes and tell her that although she's just been raped, you think it's okay she also gets brutally murdered if it means respecting her religious beliefs? Or maybe the religious beliefs of those who seek to punish her for her "crime"? I couldn't do it bro, my moral fiber isn't that flexible, but I guess I'm just another dickhead atheist who hates religion and has no soul and blah blah blah circlejerk. The point I'm trying to make is that it's sometimes not only okay, but ethical, to disrespect certain religious beliefs. The women in this article was raised to believe that if she showed her arms, legs, or hair to a man she'd cause lust in his heart and that makes her a sinning whore who deserves eternal torture because she couldn't follow the arbitrary rules of a petty god. How is that worth respect? How is that not absolutely insane?
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But she is an American and what Muslims do in other countries is completely irrelevant.
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There have been honor killings of muslim girls in pretty much every western country in the world. Just because it's not enforced by the state that doesn't mean it's not enforced by families. Also, even if poisonous beliefs don't damage someone physically they can still damage someone emotionally or psychologically.
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It is a pretty stupid belief to have when you need to "hide" your own body.
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Why? Because she thinks of self respect differently than the way you do?
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Self-respect = must hide yourself?
Thats not self respect, thats self loathing.
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[deleted]
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"the rules require arms and legs to be bare so judges can see when elbows and knees are “locked” to determine if a lift is successful."
There's a reason for it. If it's against your religion to wear a helmet to play hockey, you still have to. Suck it up.
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You don't need to show your skin to see if someone's knees and elbows are locked. Judging by the picture of her clothing when she weightlifts, it won't be difficult to judge that part.
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Well she has to follow the rules as anyone else should.
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Christ, why the fuck is this an issue in this day and age? Provided (and granted, this is a biggie) its because she wants to, who the fuck is anyone else to tell her how she can and can't dress.
The excuse that they can't see her lock out is bullshit. She's wearing spandex for Christ's sake, not a fucking burka.
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why the fuck is this an issue in this day and age?
Yes people should have given up their belief in ancient fairy tales long go and it shouldn't be an issue.
As much as I feel for her, the rules shouldn't change to accommodate anyone's random belief system and maybe she will realize the she is following a belief system that severely restricts her ability to function in life.
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Major religions are not random beliefs and I think her call for change is reasonable and ultimately won't affect the sport. Let everyone wear spandex for all I care.
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except spandex can be used to assist in lifts and give the wearer an advantage.
her archaic beliefs shouldn't be used as an excuse compromise the integrity of the sport.
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Maybe you're right and there is no way to let her compete clothed as her religion requires her to be while being assured that she is not gaining an unfair advantage.
But for your own good, get a little perspective. Unsub from r/atheism.
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How does spandex help?
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The disrespect redditors have for people of faith is one of the main reasons I'm embarrassed to say I come here. So I don't admit it, typically.
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[deleted]
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And another competitor could challenge that she has an unfair advantage if the suit's compression gives her an assist in the lifts.
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...and when the burka wearing weightlifter decides that the rules are too restrictive should we change the rules again for them?
If you love your sport more than your religion then, conform to the sport - if not, give up your sport instead of making everyone else change for you.
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Do you really think "God" gives a flying f#ck if he see's your hair? If "God" didn't like hair YOU WOULDN'T HAVE ANY F#CKING HAIR WHAT ABOUT WHEN YOU ARE IN THE SHOWER, GOD CAN'T SEE IN THE SHOWER?
Religion is so retarded It's like they are making it up....oh wait they are.
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Are you saying god doesn't exist?
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Yes, unfortunately son god is made up. It's like a imaginary friend for grown ups. Since we are on the subject I should say Santa, the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy are also made up. I know it's a lot to take in all at once but it's better that you know this now instead of getting your heart broken later.
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Well how about this, you let me believe what I want to believe and you can believe what you want to believe.
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I have no problem with people believing in made up things. My problem is forcing those beliefs on other people. I would say the majority of the world's problems and conflicts is a result of this.
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Condescension was a nice touch. Ok, dad, how do you know there is no god?
Ok I don't have time for this. See, you already lost but I don't want to go through the motions with you. So, I asked how you know there is no god. You respond by saying, "Well, how do you know there is one?" I say that I didn't say anything of the sort- you asserted there is no god and I'm asking how you know that. "What, are you going off of faith?" I say. You say because there is no evidence. I say that's the logical fallacy, and I'm not making up the name, of arguing from ignorance. If you're smart, which I don't think you are, you spout something about occam's razor and think that's all the proof you need. I say, "Ok, so there is no proof that god doesn't exist, therefore it's probably that he exists," much to your chagrin. Point is, we basically get to the point that theists have no proof of god and you have no proof there isn't one. The difference ends up being that you like to claim the logical high ground when you believe that there is no god and that's equally as ridiculous- theists at least attribute their belief to faith.
If you want to be an agnostic atheist and you think logic and reason are the most important things in life and anyone who doesn't think so doesn't deserve respect, fine; at least you're being consistent. But don't be a hypocrite and say there is no god and act like you're being the logical one and the theists are just stupid children.
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You started your imaginary debate all wrong. The first order of business is to define what "god" is, otherwise both parties spend the entire debate arguing against their own strawmen. Second, the logical gap between deism and theism is impossible to bridge. Believing a god exists is one thing, but believing that god also answers your prayers and cares whether or not you eat pork is something completely different. I don't think it's hypocritical for agnostic atheists to call theists stupid, because theism is simply an untenable position, unlike deism or atheism.
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You are wasting your time here buddy because I really couldn't give shit about this topic. You are free to do as you wish but don't cry when other people don't accept your B.S.
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What a terrible religion she belongs to.
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Huh?
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[deleted]
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.......What the fuck?
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Didn't realize the mentally ill competed in competition league sports.
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Fuck this whiny bitch.
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Wrong- you're supposed to make fun of her religion with that level of disrespect; that's how you get upvotes in the community, apparently.
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Yes, she "lifts weights" in her "gym". I'm really glad this "journalist" got an "education" so she could "write" articles like this.
Ah, yes. Let's attack a journalist again because they cover dozens of topic a week and they're not an expert in my personal hobby.
Thought I was over in r/guns for a minute.
This is not a lack of expertise in weightlifting. It is a lack of expertise in writing. I'm criticizing her use of quotes, not her use of terms.
The quotes in my comment are meant to be an amusing display of what the quotes felt like to me. Next time, instead of being funny I'll make sure to carefully explain the full range of pressures that people are under as they make decisions affecting the journalistic end-product, being fair to all involved.
No, you're criticizing a lack of expertise in your hobby. You either don't realize it, you're trying to deny it, or perhaps you don't know anything at all about writing. One of the three, clearly.
The writer is quoting the person who used a term they weren't personally familiar with. It's common to quote jargon. Most people don't know what a snatch would be. They would need it explained to them, and that article isn't the forum for that explanation because the details of the movement aren't relevant to the story.
The writer follow AP Style guidelines in that statement exactly.
You were trying to make fun of the writer for not knowing what a deadlift or a snatch was. Don't back down now.
Exactly.
For those without a copy of the guide:
UNFAMILIAR TERMS:
A word or words being introduced to readers may be placed in quotation marks on first reference: Broadcast frequencies are measured in "kilohertz."
Do not put subsequent references to kilohertz in quotation marks.
Wow. This little train has gone from good times to pissy so fast. Let me try to bring it back around.
Why is my comment at the top of this thread? Just laugh. I will have already forgotten about it by morning. This is mostly a serious thread touching on how religion interacts with other aspects of culture and society -- quite a lot to chew on! Let the tension be broken for a moment while I poke fun at something that doesn't matter.
The ambiguous overuse of quotes is becoming more and more of a thing, and I promise you that is actually a literary matter that I poke fun at. Here, have some more:
http://www.unnecessaryquotes.com/
I actually laughed at several of those despite the fact that they don't have anything to do with fitness. Cool, huh?
Now I'm going to "peace out" and go back to my "work", which involves finishing an "academic" presentation before I drink some "beer".
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Haha. I was wondering about that too. I have no idea why those would be quoted.
I guess you can put jargon is quotes and it would be ok. It seems strange to us, but it's not that wrong.
Yes but if the target audience doesn't know what deadlift and snatch mean, then there have to be better ways to go about it. The way it is phrased, if you know those terms then it comes off as snarky and alienating -- maybe even sarcastic, like you don't really believe she can do it. You could even just say it in normal terms and it would work fine for the article:
She can lift 240 pounds off the floor, and get 100 pounds up over her head in a single smooth motion. But, as Kulsoom Abdullah recently learned, she can do neither in a national competition unless she agrees to bare her arms and legs.
Yeah, the author could have done it in a much better way. Name the deadlift and then describe it. Give a comparison to other weight lifters so the numbers have meaning.
Exactly, take skating for example: He did a "kickflip" followed by a "bluntslide" and landed it perfectly.
Quotation marks tells us that the terms are related to the sport in question. It makes the article easier to follow.
The quotes, in this case, serve as a signal that the word is a piece of technical language, and signal that the reader might reasonably expect not to be familiar with it.
For example, in computer science, the "halting" problem (deciding whether a given program ever stops running) is "undecidable" (cannot be solved for every case by any possible algorithm).
[deleted]
When I saw that I immediately went to the comments to see who else was angered by that. I wasn't dissapointed