Discussion about an ending topic I see come up often, Burning White spoilers.
I want to just put this out there because I still see a lot of comments come out about Deus Ex Machina and the ending, when I don't think it is truly justified because of how the story was set up. This is just my thoughts and I welcome you guys to let me know how and why I am wrong because I want to have this discussion with the community.
So here is the dictionary definition of a deus ex machina:
- a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome or,
- a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty.
Now we can rule out number 1 because Orholam didn't decide the final outcome personally, human beings did in every sense of how it was resolved, and he also literally didn't step out of the machina hence the joke in the book.
Looking at point number 2, the salient section is Suddenly and unexpectedly to provide an unnatural or artificial solution, which I also don't think Orholam's intervention counts for. His actions have been foreshadowed/shown since book 2 with whispers to characters, most prominently Ironfist on the cannons, book 3 most notably when he himself punts Abaddon out of the library revealing his personal involvement in front of a main cast character, and book 4 when Andross speaks about the creation story which goes on to discuss how Orholam still continues to fight against the fallen immortals, it just is on his schedule not theirs.
The djinn that support the side of good in the story, were assigned by Orholam which again shows that Orholam is involved making the appearance and help to a character directly at the end not meet the criteria for unexpected nor unnatural to the story. Lets not fail to mention he also sent Prophets, Mirrors, Prisms (which stopped and were started again) and Lightbringer potentials to provide help and direction. The fact that people ignored, killed, or profaned his help doesn't mean he wasn't already an active participant. When he did get involved as himself he... Carried Ironfist to the elevator, he helped purify a source of luxin (which the mortal still had to use their own drafting talent and will to make happen), he called for a ride to the battlefield (but didn't make the machina nor fly it), pushed a character out the machina (because jumping anyways wouldn't have happened), and he healed Kip (without drafting after his main contribution was done and was foreshadowed happening by prophecy) and Dazen (after the war was over) so.... it didn't really present Orholam himself stepping in and personally resolving what was happening I would say since it needed mortals and could have still failed if mortals gave up.
What a Deus ex really comes down to in modern times has to do with working against the world building to provide a solution that doesn't fit and as such takes you out of the story. This story was already based around a figure that will return and restore the faith proper to Orholam and as such meeting and interacting with him cannot be considered unexpected in a story about a rebirth/revival of faith, especially when we see earlier in the story that he exists and does interact.
If we want to go by the definitions from Wikipedia, it is stated as "a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and unlikely occurrence" which falls into the category of the above point for definition 2. Under the plot device section it states "Aristotle was the first to use a Greek term equivalent to the Latin phrase deus ex machina to describe the technique as a device to resolve the plot of tragedies. It is generally deemed undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of creativity on the part of the author. The reasons for this are that it does damage to the story's internal logic and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, allowing the author to conclude the story with an unlikely ending". Does the inclusion of a god, who we already knew was in the story earlier and an aspect in line with the internal logic of the storytelling somehow work against the story? no. He worked primarily through chosen intermediaries (Djinn, Prophets, Mirrors, Prisms, Lightbringers) and was in fact actively involved by the virtue of constantly doing things to help or fix something, but not directly shoving his face in the story to do it with his hands unless required which is important for why it isn't a Deus ex Machina. That he was more powerful than the immortals (beings he created) isn't a mark against him nor is the idea he can heal or revive a person when the story sets him up as a creator god being responsible for making the multiverse (thousand worlds in this case).
One side note for those who want to point out about the immortal in the condor or the sea demons being sent out ahead of time, they do follow the stories logic and side step being a Deus ex because of the great library removed from time and recorded future history. It demonstrates (along with 'the master' card that Kip saw when he first met Janus) that the future can be seen and to various degrees fixed. We know its not 100% fixed because Lucidonius was meant to be a lightbringer same as a few others who fail, but at the same time some still happen as shown earlier (letter on the boat, Dazens boon, Teia mistwalking). This is also why true prophets, seers, and the demiurgos work in the story because there exists a limited ability to see and change outcomes in the world as presented.
So I welcome any thoughts or discussion on the topic and will try to talk and provide more directed proof or scenes from the story to support anything I add in the comments as possible.
Posted Sep 24, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC
Can we? Because I remember Orholam changing Dazen's mind about a multitude of things on top of that tower, all of which Dazen was very set in stone on for very, very good reason. And then deciding to fix his eye, and then deciding to bring him back to the Chromeria in record time, and drop him off exactly where he needed to be. Dazen's story was decided by Orholam, at least the ending of it.
The problem isn't with the inclusion IMO, it's with the fact that when he's included, it's in a way that goes "OK, we can fix this problem real quick, then this one, and we can bring you anywhere you want to be, etc.".
Up until this point Orholam had been ambiguous. While yes, some said his involvement was obvious, some said it wasn't. Andross was also quoted as saying that Orholam isn't involved, rather he set things to happen the way they do and left it. Grinwoody believed there wasn't an Orholam at all, rathef a nexus of magical energy. Djinn are known liars, even if they're supporting the side that we consider good it doesn't mean they couldn't be bending the truth to get support.
I've said it very recently on this sub but it's an idea that I believe bears repeating. What if the White Mist Reef had been the white ban? Or where Orholam was was a white seed crystal, and Dazen where able to take control of that? Could have fixed everything, while still leaving it all in Dazen's hand. He could've seen the wink on the way back home, leaving Orholam ambiguous.
This makes all the choices that happen Dazen's. I dont know about you, but Dazen's sudden change of mind is so out of character at the end of the book. Dazen didn't believe in Orholam, but more than that, Dazen was angry at him. Dazen, who never forgets, who was stubborn as a mule, just met him, had one conversation (which, mind you, didn't touch on half the things that Dazen was actually angry at), and in the end if the book he's a devout follower who is fully trusting and not at all upset. And I get you could say something like, "talking to a god will do that to you", but realistically I don't think Dazen would've actually cared if he's a god or not. Dazen is prideful to a fault, and i fully believe he would have stared Orholam down and told him his mind. Even in his broken and hurt state, he was still Dazen.
Mind you, all these complaints are compounded with other parts of the ending that made the book feel like it lacked a good ending. It isnt just about the one part, one thing could maybe be forgiven, but there were a few things about this book that maybe weren't necessarily bad, but just not what we expected. There were also some things I would say were bad. So the psrts about the Dazen ending feel worse because the rest of the book felt worse as well.
Consider that Dazens story has been about him losing faith, losing control, starting to question his own sanity, coming back to a painful truth and eventually going to confront his own god. If he doesn't come back to some kind of faith his whole story just falls apart, and ultimately his whole arc is about Orholam from the moment he gets stabbed and falls off the boat
That's exactly what my complaint is. The story follows a broken man with, at this point, nothing but hatred for a god who he blames for everything wrong in his life, and as stubborn as all Guile men are I'm supposed to believe that he just hard changes stance and accepts everything? And if Orholam himself wasn't put in at the end then Dazen could've come to any number of personal revelations, but by adding in Orholam in the flesh it takes away from his personal mental development that had been building up the whole time.
Actually him being there is what helps him heal. The only way to get over his trauma was to be confronted with it, and there was not another living soul who could do that for Dazen because of his rage and belief in self. The reason he changes his mind is because he literally has the foundation of his rage removed by being shown and explained thing he is mistaken of. He was apprehensive until he couldn't refute, couldn't dismiss what he heard and was shown. After that it wasn't belief it was surrender.
The struggle he has while wrestling i think showcases pretty well that he just can't fight/struggle against/beat/control everything and everyone in his life. That's a pretty powerful realization enough for him to change his mind on a couple things
Yeah, I was expecting for Orholam to be something like Greenwoody said. And maybe for Dazen to take the power instead of "killing it" and becoming the more close thing to Orholam thad had existed. Or any other interesting thing rather than Orholam being real AND good.
That's actually my biggest problem, if Orholam is real he can't just be all goodness. In the scenario where Orholam Is real the most interesting ,(and in character thing to happen) is as you said: Dazen hating his guts and maby even attacking the god with the power that Orholam him self gave him.
When I saw that the god was real, I was waiting to see Dazen live the rest of his life as a prism and the head of the church even more resentful towards Orholam than before. Because now he know he is real and is not helpingpeople with his presumably immense power. And you can throw that "mysterious wasy" bullshit around all you want; but that is condescending and you can't convince anyone to believe you in that way. Specially not Dazen.
I don't know, I would rewrite a lot of things to my liking but that wouldn't make it objectively better. I would have to reread it some day because I don't remember the las book very well, I just remember to be very very disappointed.
I would argue he was ambivalent. He has love for his creations even the fallen immortals as proof he didn't just unmake them. We even see it with characters where he shuns the prophet Orholam for denying his purpose or that he didn't save Kip from the rats in the closet.
I would argue that he was framed as good being that can do no wrong. I feel that the excuse of a being that is intelligent way beyond of human understanding was used with Orholam and I don't like that. But I'm not settling on that because my memory is shit. And I kind or recall some Orholam's dialogue that added some nuance to the character.
I like to think that he can't just unmake them, that's more interesting to me.
About the rats, I find that part really weird. Iirc, Kip didn't got help because he needed to learn a lesson or something. That sounds like bullshit to me. But I vaguely remember that the being in charge of watching Kip was distracted or something. Damn I really need to reread it.
You don't like that people who worship something like to believe it infallible and just? Even the followers of the fallen immortals gave rationality to see their 'gods' as right and good and natural. That others push that on them doesn't make them that way, and his actions align more with letting people do it themselves where possible because he isn't going to fix it all or give a utopia. As for intelligent beyond human understanding I can't recall that part from the story but will edit if I find it.
In book 3 chapter 83 Janus was remembered as saying: "In this world, Orholam has given us such power as even the angels have not. It is the power of evil unfettered. It is the destruction of history itself. It is madness and death and being-not. It is void and darkness. It is the lack of light, the lack of God himself—the lack that men rightly call hell. It is black luxin""
Which if its a power given by the creator of "being-not" that would infer the creator would also possess it. This ability to destroy history and unmake/kill things I would assume works on the immortals as they don't have that gift nor does it seem the gift of white. Lets not also forget his religion also once knew how to make the knives of surrender a tool the immortals fear since it can fight/kill them.
I would say reread epilogue 1 in Burning White, the full quote to explain this part from the book is just too many lines to use. But the core idea as Rea saw it was "“I think if your prayer in that closet might have a lesson, it was this: sometimes, Kip, the answer isn’t ‘No.’ It’s ‘Not yet.’""
I disagree with that part though, that would be equating him to our Christian God, which while similar aren't the same. As an Immortal, he is incapable of being in more than one place at a time, as was established by the books. It doesn't open up a plot hole because he physically can't do everything. He can still be fully good and benevolent, which, honestly, i don't remember anyone but maybe a priest here or there telling us that anyways, and they may not have the truth in full.
Hmm, ok I can see that. I still don't like the way Orholam intervened. It's kind of cool that he used the things that were at his reach and arranged them to save the day, like in a 9 kings game, but it was still annoying for me. I'm not sure why, I may have to do some introspection on that. But I think part of it is that the ending was more happy than I expected. Yeah, that's probably it. Don't get me wrong, I wanted happy ending, specially for Karris and Kip, but the way it happened didn't click with me.
But getting back to the tower: I don't like the way Dazen changed so drastically. Yes, there can be reasons for that, but I still can't buy it. And we still have the dichotomy of good vs evil. It's framed like that and I find that kind of boring. But again, my bad memory doesn't let me think of good examples for my complaints so I may be remembering wrong some parts.
There is people that didn't like or really liked the ending. I think that for both sides it was about expectations. I was really convinced that the story was heading in a very different direction and was disappointed when I didn't get what i expected (not necessarily what I wanted). I still think there is valid complaints about the ending (and not just about Orholam), but I'm not sure any more that it was totally out of line how I first thought.
Anyway I'll wait to make a reread before making a "definitive stance" for various reasons: I don't remember very well what happened; english is not my first language and I read the books in english; and also I'm sure I'm going to see the books in a different light in a couple of years. I still think the ending is awkward, but after the way of the shadows ending and then this one, I have come to think that that's becoming Brent's personal mark.
Oh I 100% agree with you there, I have many many complaints about the ending as well. I just think we should remember that this isn't something we have in our world, it's separate in many ways and I believe that it's important to establish that when talking about any series. Especially with one that can get heated between factions like religion
Remember that he is a man who cut parts of his own mind with something he didn't understand, had trauma from childhood and lived for over a decade pretending to be his dead brother to everyone so its less of changing drastically as letting go of the facade. Most of what we see Dazen do through the series is deception and false so why couldn't he instead be unburdened to return to what he truly was at his core?
This was actually established as possible for Orholam as Karris gets Kip revived by naming the Kopi seller as Orholam while he is on the tower with Dazen, which we know because Dazen gets that blast of white from Kip on the tower then begins drafting. No other immortal has been shown to be allowed to heal like that, even Rea merely healing Kip's eyes after the light storm was only allowed her because the other side tipped the scale by sending the storm.
Any character could change a mind, the point is it wasn't forced, its not artifical and all the way up till the end Dazen had agency and it was his decision. He could have denied Orholam and tried to kill him still, he could have gave up after failing with black once, he could have denied Andross the light. That Dazen changes his mind when he learned what he thought was wrong isn't anything that a card wouldn't have resolved the same way, making the fact it was Orholam moot. He didn't fix the missing eye on the tower just removed the black stone. And bringing him to the fight was Dazen's choice. Chapter 139:
"Orholam said, “You came all this way for one reason. Did you forget it already?”
To kill You? Oh, not that. “To save Karris?” Dazen asked.
“You still want to?”"
Every step up there was a correction but with choice, and that is important because it moves agency in what happened from Orholam to Dazen. Lets also not forget he wasn't even willing to see any of this until after fighting an entire day, learning truths he didn't know, and seeing proof.
I mean some of this was long set up like the mirrors, that wasn't Orholam and it needed to happen to get this done, Dazen needed direction which came from Kip, Dazen had to be humbled to finally learn from his little brother truths his broken mind didn't know, Dazen brought a stone he hadn't tossed away to offer which is what Orholam took from him, and he offered a boon as tradition dictated a penitent receives. That his desire would be to save his love and Orholam makes it happen is just part of the deal not anything above and beyond and fits what we knew and expected as the story progressed.
Absolutely we couldn't say 100% "this side good this side bad", but your point about Andross and Orholam is slightly off. Book 4 chapter 40:
"“Let us not mistake their side and ours. This is one battlefield among a hundred thousand for them. Perhaps their victory is complete now that one of the two hundred rebels is banished. Or perhaps by drawing the vengeance of his fellows, they get a dozen of the rebels to waste days or even mere hours here that are critically important to a battle on some other world that they believe is more important.”
“You’re telling me we could just be a distraction?” Karris asked.
“How did the old story put it? ‘When the king sends a ship of grain to his ally, he worries not about the comfort of the rats in the hold.’ Our lives are nothing to the universe, High Lady.”"
And
"“And where is he? And where is the Orholam who saves, who sees, who cares?”
Karris had no answer.
“We’re in a battle alone. And of the immortals, only one side has shown up, and it wasn’t Orholam’s.”"
That a character hadn't believed or experienced it doesn't preclude other characters or the reader from it, which is important for the argument of if it met the criteria. To Grinwoody proof that Orholam exists would be near impossible but to Kip? Absolutely proven. This is also a world with much lost history but we get glimpse of it as we go which removes it being something beyond the suspension of disbelief. So that characters in a faith that is dying and needs correction back to true faith, not believing he is real or cares is by design but also not a proof to the reader who sees more.
I do however think given what we hear of the creation stories and the 200 fallen, that there is some credibility to one side being very much against mortal worlds and one side being against those.
As far as we see and hear White and Black don't form a bane, but can make crystals. This is also why the fallen immortals top rank was referred to as the 9 and Orholam discussed that Dazen hunted 7 Chromeria colored ones but couldn't find Chi or Paryl. This also aligns with the memory Dazen has in book 3 from Janus saying that black is denied to the angels/immortals.
How many non-wight drafters have we seen use a crystal instead of just gleaning things from it? 0. The closest we saw was Ironfist/nuquaba with the Orange who could use it as a lie/feeling sensor but that still wasn't enough to actually use it entirely. How would the man who still didn't believe white is real or remember drafting it going to suddenly master it and use it to an extent others couldn't be used? That would be a Deus Ex.
But he wasn't ambiguous since book 3, why make it that way at the end? We certainly knew and learned of the higher realms and all their stuff through card history and the immortals so why keep Orholam out, but the immortals in when its a book about renewing the faith and belief in him?
And Kip was angry at Andross and learned to move passed it because it was important to do so. In Dazens case he had to basically be shown how broken his mind and understanding was and even then he was still fighting it, but surrendered to that sense of duty, to save others which he has always done. Why do you think he fought all day against Sevastian.
Remember it was mostly the conversation with Sevastian not Orholam that gets him to the point of even giving it a shot. He was broken and on the edge and was shown truths he wasn't expecting. After he came to terms with that he is ready to listen mostly because he had no other option but to go with it. Chapters 117, 120, 122. As for not being upset can you prove he isn't? You say he is a devout follower but its more that he is a man who honors his oath: chapter 122 again:
"“No,” Orholam said. “If I wished to rob humans of their will, would the world be so full of trouble? No. Slavery is what happens when men act on their desire to be gods, and slavery shows what kind of gods you’d be. How about a son who strives to be the best son he can be?”
“Then I swear to honor and obey You with all my strength.”
“Really?”
“I’m Yours. To spend as You will.”
Orholam kept his end, Dazen is now working to keep his.
Which is why the fight for an entire day with his brother happened. That whole time leading up to Orholam coming was to prepare him, and his little brother did it the only way he knew would work. Chapter 115 all together actually does this well but this one part is important:
"“Dazen!” Sevastian said. “Elrahee. Elishama. Eliada. Eliphalet. He sees. He hears. He cares. He saves.”
Gavin snorted. “And yet here I am, on His front porch. Knocked on the door. Hell, I even punched a hole in it! He isn’t here, brother. Never was. This tower’s a monument to nothing. And you’re nothing but my madness.”
“Dazen, if Orholam came to speak to you in the flesh, you still wouldn’t listen. Didn’t, for your whole climb and for your whole life. But you listened to me. So who’s the right messenger to send to you?”
“You’re not a messenger. You’re a hallucination.” But tears were flowing. He was so ashamed and he could hide none of it now.
“A hallucination who tells you things you don’t know and kicks your ass?”"
After he goes through the mirror and meets Orholam on return it wasn't until he saw his dream again after taking his hand he even begins to believe that was God himself.
I am not saying all of the ending was good or not, or that there wasn't things that felt bad, merely that it wasn't a Deus Ex Machina because of the way it was set up and that the mortals set the choices and made them happen not God, he merely supported what they wanted in the same way the immortals supported those who seek godhood by helping them ascend the bane. As for expectation that is a personal thing and not the entire reader base.