As per the title what are the most difficult or hardest nutrition/mineral/vitamin to make your daily requirements or the most that has to be supplemented?
Posted Oct 9, 2020, 7:31 AM UTC
Vitamin K2 is one of the rarest and most difficult vitamins to get from diet. It's exceedingly rare in the vast majority of peoples diet and essential in preventing cardiovascular calcification and preventing osteoporosis. It also helps the brain due to how it affects sphingolipid metabolism in the brain. If you take D3 you need K2. They're equally important. 45ug for every 1kIU of vitamin D.
This is why I make my own natto and eat 100 grams daily. One ounce (~28grams) contains 313ug to 500ug of K2. But there are many good K2 supplements too. Just be sure you're getting natural and not synthetic K2 as described here
good answer, thanks!
pretty much the only food sources of K2 are liver and unpasteurised fermented foods (iirc) and these aren’t present in most people’s diets nowadays so I definitely think K2 supplementation is important, especially if you are supplementing with vit D as you say.
unpasteurised fermented foods
Is it just natto that has K2 or do things like sauerkraut and kimchi have it too?
As far as I know natto is the best source, sauerkraut and kimchi have a small amount in comparison. Animal liver and other animal products have more K2 than sauerkraut and kimchi
Depends on the country and culture. Plenty of places and people still eat unpasteurised fermented foods, just maybe not in the US
Yes when I said “most people” I was mainly referring to a standard western diet. I’m not from the US but fermented foods are not a common addition to the diet in my country at all
It also helps the brain due to how it affects sphingolipid metabolism in brain cells. If you take D3 you need K2.
The combination should be vitamin D, K2 and magnesium which is what I recommend in my stack.
Yes, good point. The magnesium is required for many of the enzymatic reactions promoted by vitamin D. without enough Mg the vitamin D can't do it's job or worse it could cause side effects
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Do you get that side effect from supplement use or from food? If you take supplements which form do you take (MK4 or MK7? Cis or Trans?).
Trans is natural and the CIS form is synthetic as noted here> https://omegavia.com/how-to-choose-the-right-vitamin-k2-supplement/
I've noticed a difference when supplementing or from food. This may be due to the presence of other types of K2 in foods. MK4 and MK7 are what's in most supplements but food actually contains many different types of K2 such as MK7, MK8, MK9 and more.
Before I was using natto daily I was taking Thorne MK4 and after a few weeks any side effects subsided as I adapted.
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No. It's been approved as a prescription for osteoporosis in Japan since 1995. They've given them 15milligrams up to three times a day for a year and no side effects. I think a few people had some very mild side effects such as mild headache. It was less than 15% of those who took it in the study. That's 1000 times more than 45ug!
"Glakay is the trade name for the prescription Vitamin K2 (MK-4) treatment for osteoporosis in Japan. It is manufactured by Eisai Co. It was approved in 2005 by the Japanese Ministry of Health & Welfare which is the equivalent of the FDA in Japan. Glakay is 15mg of K2 (MK-4) taken 3 times per day. The total dose is 45mg per day."
See more studies here https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=k2+japan
You can even buy it on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Klaire-Labs-Ultra-Menatetrenone-Hypoallergenic/dp/B07FSYG2BZ
I eat 100grams of natto three or four times a week and it contains at least 1000ug per 100gram serving, roughly. On average that means I'm getting about 500ug per day (half a milligram). Some studies have found that it can be as high as 3000ug per 100gm of natto but 1000 is a better, more conservative estimate.
Before I formed a natto habit I was using the Thorne liquid k2 and taking a few drops a day for a year with no issues whatsoever. That's about 5 milligrams daily at breakfast. https://www.amazon.com/Thorne-Research-Vitamin-Liquid-drop/dp/B000FGWDTK/
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I have the same reservations with making my own natto as making my own yogurt -- every once in a while a non-wanted culture sets up shop :-(
I am interested in where you source the soy beans you use for your natto...
I've never gotten food poisoning from homemade fermented foods and I've been making them for years. Yogurt (not recently as I'm now plant based), cultured veggies, natto, and tempeh. Or maybe my microbiome is so strong that it just kills anything pathogenic before I get sick? never noticed any off smells or discolored areas in my ferments.
In the last 12 months I've purchased one 25lb bag of organic yellow soybeans from trueleaf market here: https://www.trueleafmarket.com/products/organic-yellow-soybean-sprouting-seeds?variant=38818349000
and a 25lb bag from ebay via a seller named hayjockey https://www.ebay.com/usr/hayjockey
I've heard good things from Laura Soy too, they sell the extra small soy that's used by many commercial natto makers http://www.laurasoybeans.com/natto-sprouting-soybeans/
Signaturesoy is a well known good dealer https://www.ebay.com/usr/signaturesoy
another reputable ebay dealer as is SoyPro https://www.ebay.com/usr/2015usfiec
Thank you for the information! I eat natto, but the price adds up buying it from the local Asian market :-)
Yes, it's cheap per pack but it adds up if you eat it daily. That's why I started making my own too. I saw a report recently showing that the frozen imported type has much fewer viable bacteria than fresh natto. It still has some just not as much and of course the freezing doesn't affect the nattokinase or k2.
hardest should be potassium.
4750mg sounds low but, its pretty hard to get.
Depends on your diet. When I was keto I never met that daily requirement without taking extra in the form of "lite" salts. But being 'whole food plant based' I get more than that every day without even thinking about it. many days I will actually get 200%+. The other day I got 7500mg just from the amount of vegetables I ate.
I could never get enough B12 or iron on a plant based diet. Do you supplement?
Oh yes B12 is essential. I supplement. I take a single 2400mcg dose every monday.
But you know what's interesting is that the majority of people who are B12 deficient are meat eaters. Only bacteria can produce B12. In the past animals would get it by grazing on plant matter contaminated with B12 producing bacteria or via contaminated water. However with the advent of cafo farming and the chemical sterilization required to prevent disease from overcrowding they no longer get that bacteria naturally. So ranchers and cafo operations all supplement B12 in feed or as shots or pills. I wonder if the meat eaters who are B12 deficient are eating meat where the rancher cheaped out and skipped the supplemention? Or if it's because they don't eat much meat? probably both cases exist, I would guess.
In either case the B12 is coming from a pill (directly or indirectly) unless you eat free range organic. That was cost prohibitive for me.
regaring iron. I took a baze nutritional test last January but they don't test for Iron. I was "optimal" or "normal" in everything else, except chromium which I supplement. I want to get iron levels checked in the next few months just to check. I have restless leg and one thing that can supposedly make it worse is Iron deficiency but since going plant based my restless leg has calmed way down. When I was keto and eating beef and pork regularly it was 100% worse.
I eat venison and some years elk that i harvested myself.
B12 is nadda problema
No cows for example(and to my knowledge all other land based herbivore)would get it thru bacteria in their stomach which help ferment the grass eaten and produce b12 in that process.
Yeeeeees! #goals
I eat mainly plant based whole foods as well and don't get close unless I try to eat specific things, like spinach instead of kale and white beans instead of kidney. Any tips?
well, generally I try to have as much diversity as possible and try not to eat the same things too regularly but the things that give me the most potassium are some of my regular veggies; cucumbers, kale, collards, parsley, arugula, cilantro and romaine. I will eat 2lbs of those total. For example the other day I had over 200% RDA for potassium and I ate 1lb of arugula, an entire bunch of cilantro, a "bunch" of parsley and 1lb of tomatos and 1lb of cucumbers sliced up; all over the course of an entire day not in one meal, of course. For dressing I used 2 cups of marinara, as well as some balsamic vinegar.
Goes to show how impractical it is and improbable to be hitting the potassium RDA on a daily basis.
However even though I highly doubt I get the recommended daily, none of my blood tests have ever shown me outside normal ranges for serum potassium. I wonder how much difference in wellbeing it makes to hit that amount daily.
Advice on hitting that much?
magneisum,choline,pottasium,b12
I’m here to second choline. Super important but who actually eats enough eggs and quinoa every day to get enough.
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You sure? What egg are you talking about. Ostrich egg?
megalodon egg
A delicacy indeed.
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Creatine
This isn't essential your body makes it. Supplementation is more for personal reasons.
Oh alright. I thought is subreddit about SUPPLEMENTATION. For alot of people this mean going beyond what body can produce.
OP asks about nutrition to hit daily requirements. Creatine needs can easily be hit using endogenous production and eating red meat. The only population that generally has low creatine stores is vegans
To exceed daily requirements for performance benefits, I agree supplementation is helpful
Don’t you get more than enough of this from meats
Hell. To the no no
Source?
The daily requirement of a 70-kg male for creatine is about 2 g; up to half of this may be obtained from a typical omnivorous diet, with the remainder being synthesized in the body
Oh im talking about taking creatine for added performance. I thought this subreddit is about that, didnt know its about people LACKING anything
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B12 and K2 are common ones that vegans need to keep an eye on but it seems like regular diets are quite lacking too.
Magnesium. Barely any foods have it and the ones that do only have 10% per serving
And that is why you eat 10 servings
I've been tracking my nutrition with cronometer.com lately, and I've noticed that I tend to fall short on potassium and vitamin E. Also vitamin D but I supplement it so I don't have to worry about it.
Also magnesium: Subclinical magnesium deficiency: a principal driver of cardiovascular disease and a public health crisis
Vitamin C, if you consider the evolutionary arguments put forward not only by Pauling but also evolutionary biologists: Nutritional characteristics of wild primate foods: do the diets of our closest living relatives have lessons for us?
Creatine isn't a nutrient but you won't reach optimal levels from food alone
What does creatine do, mainly?
It’s used as an energy source within your muscles. It benefits athletic performance, anaerobic exercise. Over time it leads to greater development of muscle, more strength, more speed. It also leads to lower reaction time and supposedly has some nootropic effects. It has no side affects if you stay hydrated.
It’s one of the only supplements that actually has a significant effect on muscle growth and athletic performance. By far the most effective.
as far as i know, it doesn't actually affect muscle growth. It only affects muscle performance, which allows for more training. The training is what increases protein synthesis.
Good enough for me! I just started taking creatine this week. Maybe its just in my mind, but i did some good sets of pushups the other day and feel like i recovered fast from the soreness, ready for another pushup workout tonight when i might have waited another day for recovery orherwise.
Omega 3 fats. Almost nothing of what I eat contains it.
I think that would be Magnesium. Because research proves that most people are not intaking the RDA for magnesium in comparison with other nutrients. visit https://realpeoplewin.com/benefits-of-magnesium-supplements-for-fitness/for reviews
It is strange since my government information is that it is very rare in my country to be deficient in magnesium.
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Magnesium.
Trace elements and minerals have to be high up, modern farming methods and hybrid or gmo crops stuff is depleted from soils. Selenium is one, important for thyroid. Brazil nuts x2 per day fulfills that. Zinc may be another.
B vitamins b6 b9 b12 commonly deficient, the other b vitamins are common in foods
Vitamin C. Most mammals can synthesize vit c, humans cannot. we only need small amounts to prevent scurvy, but that doesn't mean thats enough. Under times of need, oxidative stress we lack the ability to make up shortfall. Its well tolerated and cheap so seems good idea to supplement.
Vitamin D-E-K, Potassium, Folate, Magnesium, Omega 3+6. Is what I supplement for the most part. Plus other non essentials such as leucine, creatine, turmeric, coq10... many many more
It depends on your diet. Vitamin D was never a problem until I went dairy free, Vitamin K has never been a problem, etc.
Magnesium
Vitamin K
Vitamin D
Boron
Iodine
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Boron + Potassium
I'd think vitamin D3 is pretty darn hard to get from food, mostly found in dairy.
D is well absorbed from sun. Supp needed in winter for sure.
No, it is not. Old wives tale. Sun does not emit Vit D. Your body does not produce a lot of Vit D from sun exposure. Again, old wives tale.
Lol what? Vitamin D production is highly dependent on solar exposure, and it is estimated that between 80% and 90% of our vitamin D status stems from UVB-induced production
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Why you talking nonsense.
Got any sources to back up that claim?
We just don't get efficient Vit D production from our lifestyle. Everybody needs to supplement if they want good levels.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3030826/
Photosynthesis of vitamin D in the skin: effect of environmental and life-style variables M F Holick PMID: 3030826 Abstract Exposure to sunlight continues to play a major role in providing adequate vitamin D nutrition for most of the population of the world, including those who live in countries that practice fortification of dairy, margarine, and cereal products with vitamin D. During exposure to sunlight, the high-energy UV photons (290-315 nm) penetrate the epidermis and photolyze 7-dehydrocholesterol (provitamin D3) to previtamin D3. Once formed, previtamin D3 undergoes a thermally induced isomerization to vitamin D3 that takes 2-3 days to reach completion. Melanin effectively competes with provitamin D3 for the UV radiation that enters the epidermis and limits its photolysis to previtamin D3. However, this is not the major factor that prevents excess production of vitamin D in the skin of people who are constantly exposed to sunlight. During the initial exposure to sunlight, provitamin D3 is efficiently converted to previtamin D3. However, because previtamin D3 is photolabile, continued exposure to sunlight causes the isomerization of previtamin D3, principally to lumisterol. Thus, no more than 10-20% of the initial provitamin D3 concentrations ultimately end up as previtamin D3. Aging, sunscreens, seasonal changes, time of day, and latitude also significantly affect the cutaneous production of this vitamin-hormone.
My dr literally prescribed me vid D and told me to sit in the sun more
Could You provide proper answer?
Fish liver is rich in vit d and vit a.
vitamin D is added to dairy