Thoughts and Impressions on Midnight and War
I’m back from Holiday! I’ve caught up on the two episodes I missed, and since I missed the last two episode decisions threads, I figured I’ll throw my thoughts and impressions into a post for funsies.
Midnight
Cinder backstory time! Nothing terribly surprising when it came to the elements I was expecting - evil step mother & step sisters, fairy godmother, poor Cinderella etc. What surprised me was how Cinder wasn’t a fully product of her environment; her nature counts towards the monster she became.
She’s an orphan in Mistral adopted by an elite to work in an hotel in Atlas in a brazen way to get around child labor laws. Her treatment is horrendous, it makes your heart ache. At the same time we have a ten year old who jumps to maiming/murder as a solution to her problems. Even prior to that, she was prone to resorting to violence at the orphanage. But with some guidance from a huntsman she instead bides her time, learning everything he has to offer. She plays the role of servant, and at midnight she becomes her true self, a very nice touch from the writers.
The backstory covers a lot of ground in a concise way without wasting time. Nicely paced. We learn how she learned to fight, how she learned to blend into her environment, and motivation for her thirst for power. We also get the first time she demonstrates her power over others, why she needs to make a show of it and takes pleasure in it. Cinder needs to be on top. It was not just a matter of self-defense or revenge. There’s a deep seated need to show superiority, one that was present before her time in Atlas. The terrible treatment she received was like adding fuel to those smoldering embers, and the sporadic attention of huntsman wasn’t enough to quench those flames. Like the fairy godmother’s magic, it was only a facade, a band aid, to help find a better future for Cinderella. This time, Cinderella broke the glass slipper and shanked the godmother with it. She was not going to have her path decided for her.
So Cinder is a muddled mix of nature vs. nurture. An added depth I wasn’t expecting, love it!
In real time, we have a little more on the CEM dynamic. Emerald still cares deeply, while Mercury is throwing his lot in with Salem. Nothing unpredictable, particularly with Mercury.
Back to Oscar & Oz, and I’m loving their development. Oscar is really showing his Oz-ness and the point is driven home when they arrive at the same conclusion to sabotage Salem’s allies. Not help or turn, but sabotage. “We really are similar, you and I.”
Finally, we’re getting stuck into the merge and what like mindedness actually means. Not just being told it, but in actual demonstrations. Oscar is so far removed from the farm boy he was introduced as that I can’t really meaningfully compare the two. At the same time, Oz is changed as well. I actually had a hard time seeing ‘Ozpin’ in his plea to Hazel. Now, I do realize it's a ploy, but there is a streak of genuineness to his words. Ozma would regret what happened to his sister. As Ozpin, he could mute that with logic and bury it under more pressing issues. As Oscar, he’s not only being forced to face it, he’s also incorporating a more hopeful stance. A position colored by youth, not one of cynical maturity. It’s clear that each host has an impact on Oz.
Later on in the throne room, I couldn’t tell if his outburst was Oz or Oscar, the water is really muddy now. Ironwood’s comment on not being able to tell who is who, and Oz’s own assertion that he is changed is really being shown. Awesome!
Salem floats in and I love that she can tell when Ozma is out. I really like how sinister she is, how buried her humanity is. She was quick to dismiss Watts until he showed her he was still of use. She is not attached to him beyond what he can do for her. And that’s also shown in her treatment of Cinder. She punishes her but gives her another chance because she is still useful to her as the key to the vaults. So Watts is getting a rescue and Penny is Cinder's target.
It might just be me, but there is some heavy foreshadowing around Cinder and Salem’s conflict. I knew the whole “Without you, I’m nothing” line had its origins outside of their relationship. When Cinder snapped that shock necklace off, it occurred to me she could do the same with Salem. As the step mother honed Cinder to be her demise, I can see Salem doing the same - she’s given her the tools to do so with the magic sucking arm. And Cinder is clearly never going to be satisfied with accepting a subservient position. We see that with the flashes to her past when Salem is punishing her. Cinder is playing a role with Salem.
Oz’s outburst shines a light of Salem’s motivations - that she’s not just in it for conquering the world. He voiced what I suspected; she’s looking for a way to end her existence.
And then that ending! We see the reason for the delay on Salem’s part and Atlas defenses are taken out fairly effortlessly. Which was foreshadowed back in V6 - bit of design flaw when the devices for projecting hard light shields are on the outside of the shield.
Overall, good episode for the villains, particularly Cinder. Salem also shines and we get a hint at Hazel’s motivations for siding with Salem. Oscar and Oz are such a 180 from their bland V7 portrayal, it’s great. It's a development I was hoping for in V7, a long time coming.
War
Now that was a heck of a way to open an episode! The whale beaches itself to spew out a legion of grimm, holy moly. A minor nitpick is why the Atlas military is so anti-dust. Lining up in neat formations is like setting the dinner table for the grimm to feast. No earth or ice dust to hastily erect defenses. The paladins are not even upfront, and why are they ignoring the perfectly good wall behind them? I do love the concept of a wave of grimm sweeping towards the city, but the military is just set up up like sand to wash over rather than a rock to crash against. Ironwood’s plan to deliver explosives into the whale is sound, and cold reality of a potential suicide mission is plain shown on Winter’s face. Love that part!
Emerald creeping around like a thief brings her to snoop on Oz’s torture session. Here we get disclosure on Hazel’s motivations to follow Salem; a new world without strife. I do like the hypocritical nature of Hazel, that he desires peace and at the same time vengeance. And he’s willing to use violence to get both. It’s twisted logic, but I can see where he’s coming from in a “breaking eggs to make an omelette” kind of way. Still hopelessly misguided though, and that gives Oz and Oscar to work with in their sabotage plan.
Again, it requires both of them to work on Hazel. Neither one could do it on their own. Hazel requires knowledge from Oz and his unique perspective on Salem, as well as Oz's admission to fault. He pulls apart Hazel’s reasons and points out how Salem set out to exploit them. But if only words were needed, this issue would have been settled long ago. It takes Oscar’s demonstration of trust to water those seeds of doubt Oz planted. An action that would be meaningless without the prior work put into it.
Kudos to the writers here for showing us not only the like-mindedness of Oz and Oscar, but also how different this reincarnation of Ozma is to the previous one we’re familiar with.
Checking in with RWB, we see they’re having a nice cuppa while looking after Nora. At first the scene is really flat, their emotions are not there and they seem out of character. But they really are stuck and the shock of the situation has overwhelmed them. Honestly, what is the next step to take? What can they do?
May comes in and delivers a solid performance, seriously enjoying her character. Her motivation is to get back and help Mantle since Atlas holds no love for her. As Ruby points out, it's just not that simple. Defending Atlas or Mantle are both important, regardless of personal feelings. The question is still where can they do the most good?
Back on the whale, not only does Hazel know the full story of Salem and Ozma, but also has been given the key to confirm the truth for himself. Interestingly, so does Emerald. I was wondering how her Aladdin allusions were going to be brought into play, eavesdropping works well for that. The whole Oscar befriending Emerald was a theory I never liked, glad that it didn’t pan out. Instead, Emerald actually has real agency here.
She fills in Mercury who promptly dismisses it. Salem isn’t going to destroy the word, something Tyrian disagrees with. It’s great the most insane character among them saw the truth of Salem’s actions. Mercury dismissed the information because he isn’t crazy and has projected his own selfish desires onto Salem. Who wouldn’t want to rule the world? It takes insanity to see the truth because the truth is insane. Great use of the characters in this scene.
So Tyrian and Mercury have been given a mission to head off to Vacuo, likely to get the ball rolling for the next stage of Salem’s plans. I think that’s the last we’ll see of those characters for a while.
Jaune showing his leadership potential is great to see. JYRO wasn’t a concise team when they went out to help Mantle citizens. Effectively Yang made the call and the others tagged along to help with their own reasons. Because they weren’t a cohesive unit, they lost Oscar. Now we have Jaune stepping up to give some needed direction.
Ren’s development is great as well. He really turns a corner here. While his build up to this moment has been shaky, the emotional payoff is still great. Highlighting the differences between Ace ops and them in regards to the value of teammates was a nice segue into his semblance evolving. Very smooth.
Overall it’s enough to convince Winter to let them go and attempt to save Oscar before the bomb is delivered. The only nitpick here is it doesn’t feel like it’s quite enough, that is saving Oscar because friendship. Pointing out that Oscar is also Oz, and that they know the password to the relic, would have made it a more solid foundation for Winter letting them go.
Back again with RWB, and Ruby suggests breaking out Qrow and Robyn to help. Not a bad idea, but one the May refutes. There isn’t really time to waste on another risky infiltration mission while people need them now. So she gives them a choice; help Atlas or Mantle. An impossible choice at this stage.
They’re interrupted by a knock at the door and Klein is back! First bit of good news is he’s there to help Nora, and we learn that Whitley has done the first unselfish thing in the series so far. It’s a small gesture, but one appreciated by Weiss and a step towards reconciliation. This is a fine way to progress their development. Screen time is still a premium and there’s not a lot to waste on a bit character at best. This gesture works really efficiently. I’m still annoyed that Weiss' conflict with her father ended on a lackluster note, but I was only ever lukewarm to Whitley filling in as Weiss’ antagonist.
Then Penny drops in unexpectedly. Literally. And with Cinder tracking her down, so it’s looking like conflict is going to find RWB.
Overall another really decent episode. Besides a few nitpicks, I still want the main course of RWB to deliver. I’m enjoying all the other courses but it all needs balanced out with the central plot line of the protagonist. Pacing does remain on point though. There is little waste in my opinion.
Anywho, that’s my thoughts, feel free to add! Or just catch up. Any drama I've missed? New theories? What's r/RWBY been up to?
Posted Jan 6, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC
Err...
Yeah, I'm gonna go with no.
Seemed pretty clear to me - what 10 year old resorts to murder her way out of a problem as their first solution?
It's not only nurture in play here, Cinder behaviors aren't fully explained by her environment. There is something abnormal about how she acts. And it's supported by the writers very deliberate choice in subverting Cinderella's themes, particularly with the midnight allusion.
But it also requires her environment to really polish those inherent qualities. If Cinder was taken out of the hotel, adopted by a nice family, I'm not convinced she would be a well rounded individual or even a good person. Her thirst of power and domination may be channeled into something productive, like being a CEO or a politician, but will never be quenched.
Cinder's environment counts for a lot in how she turned out. It's her nature that's the foundation though, that's all I'm pointing out.
Probably not many, to be sure. They might resort to it as their 100th solution, if they are being enslaved and tortured. Or did you believe that she stole the sword on her first night there?
I believe that can be explained by being an abused and traumatized child that was a victim of human trafficking and torture. But that could just be me.
It's her first action in trying to remedy the situation she's in. Not running away, or alerting the authorities, or even making a scene in front of guests. Yes, I can see violence as a an option when others have been tried, but jumping straight to it?
I'm also not implying the torture and literal enslavement is anything less than horrendous. And it can drive people to take drastic actions. All I'm pointing out is that Cinder's nature is also a factor. Not the only factor, just a factor. She quite obviously needs more than just a stable home. She needs therapy, tons of it, and be given the mental tools to function in a society. Her rough environment is the exact opposite of what she needed. It sanded her down to her core. Her treatment didn't break her, nor did her really mold her. It took away any chance she could keep herself in check.
There's a proverb about two wolves being inside of you, one evil one good, both warring against each over. The one the wins is the one that's fed. While Cinder's environment starved her, it was feast for one wolf. And that wolf wasn't exactly weak when it all started.
Absolutely. But I just think it's really creepy to look at a child in such a horrendous situation, struggling to get any kind of power over their life, and say "obviously there's just something in her nature that made her violent".
Nurture is absolutely sufficient to explain Cinder.
Because she took stock in Rhodes' solution is wait and train until you're 17 and lashed out when that solution was threatened.
I think you're expecting Cinder to be a rational actor in the story when it's pretty well explained why she wouldn't be.
Your acting like the Hotel was the first environment not the second. Even your main post, your saying she's prone to violence when really the only context we see that in is when she is already being attacked.
Nothing about Cinders backstory says nature to me. She literally never starts a fight. Overall I think that carries throughout RWBY with only Tyrian just being nature based, everyone else is nurture
I meant a board stroke when I say environment, the orphanage could also play a part, for sure. The issue is we don't linger there. Why she was scrubbing floors and fighting the other kids we don't know for sure. All we can say for certain is she was prone to using violence. Which can be provoked, I agree.
The Hotel is where we get the real focus, and that's where I'm basing most of my impression of Cinder's nature. Again, not saying it's the sole cause of how she turned out, just a part of it. It's also in line with how she acts now. It's not controversial to say the Cinder lacks empathy, compassion, is antisocial and egotistical. She displays a lot of psychopathic traits, origins to which can be genetic. Combined with the boldness/lack of inhibitions to murder, and her impulsive killing of her step family later, Cinder does seem like a text book psychopath.
But you could also be right, that Cinder is merely a product of her environment and under different circumstances she could be a well adjusted person. Heck, if she shows remorse and empathy later on down the line I'll happily climb aboard that bandwagon. Currently I'm just leaning towards Cinder's nature as part of the reason she is who is.
I think I just don't agree with prone to using violence when the trigger shown for the orphanage is being attacked. That's not prone to violence, that's being pushed to it.
I just think if you showed the flashbacks to someone who had no conceived notion of Rwby or Cinder telling them only it's a villian origin story, they wouldn't think, this was nature in anyway