I know all of that jazz about the holy trinity, but how is threat going to be passed around in GW2? It can't possibly just be randomized. As far as I can tell, there aren't any threat generating abilities currently, so what's the deal?
Posted Oct 25, 2011, 3:13 AM UTC
Aggro – Aggro is handled in a very simple way; the person closest to a mob gets aggro. Though this doesn’t mean you can just stand there and take a bunch of damage because you will die. Everyone is going to have to take turns soaking up damage and switching roles while in combat. So a Guardian could be up front taking some hits, if he’s going down quick he can roll out to the back lines and pull out his Scepter and start firing away while a Warrior switches from a 2h Hammer to a 1h & Shield to take some hits. Though aggro isn’t something only plate wearers are going to be dealing with, all players will be expected to fill this role, obviously the squishies can’t stay in there too long, but they do have abilities that allow them to soak up damage while others roll out and heal up and see what’s going on in the fight.
It isnt the closest person to the mob; thats placeholer ai for the demo. It will likely be similar to gw1: a combination of armor, aggression, remaining life, and item held among other things.
However, we dont curently know for sure.
At Comic con someone asked about aggro and Colin said it's proximity based with no mention to any mechanics otherwise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wyYe1JKdrdI#t=2938s
You can also look at the GW2 wiki that also backs up my info as well.
I'll try to find the reference to the placeholder AI, I know that was a takeaway from the gamecon spree this year.
Why the fuck is this guy getting downvoted? He's speaking the truth, the devs confirmed it on the forums, and furthermore it makes zero sense for them to have a more regressive AI system in a game with even less emphasis on tanking than GW1.
Don't believe everything written on the wiki. The devs don't write that stuff, users do. The forums are more accurate sources of information, if you follow them.
Can you find a link to that post? I'd be really interested in reading what the devs take was on it.
To be fair to the wiki the info put on there comes directly from the dev in some form, whether it be from the GW2 site, interviews, podcasts, conventions demos, forums, etc. I'd have to think if it was confirmed on guru or something that it would be in the wiki, the people who edit the wiki are very thorough and consistent. Anyways if they had said this on the forum at some point then why did they go ahead and only mention proximity when it comes to aggro at comic-con if there's a lot more to it than that?
The wiki for guild war 2 isnt as well maintained as guild wars 1 yet, just because we have trouble keeping up with the fluctuations :) as soon as the game stabilizes out you will see the wiki as a much more stable source of info. Right now its a really good guess, but its not 100% true.
So a Guardian could be up front taking some hits, if he’s going down quick he can roll out to the back lines and pull out his scepter and start firing away
FTFY
Oh thanks.
The hell? If I'm playing mage, it's for a reason. BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO BE HIT. Yes, I get that overnuking can lead to pulling aggro, and that's expected, so I'm hoping that's what you mean here.
Otherwise, everyone might as well play Guardian.
I think you might be missing the point. Its not that everyone is GOING to take turns taking damage, its that everyone has their own way to deal with taking damage if the need should ever arise. If your rolling with a group that has a guardian and a couple warriors then you may never have to "tank". You can deal damage from on high and pop a couple healing springs every now and then to keep em topped up.
But what if your rolling 5 mages deep? does that mean you all scurry away like small woodland creatures when one of those tree things show up? No.. you pop earth attunement and you look that bitch in the face and say... "These aren't the mages you're used to buddy"... and that's what GW2 is going to be all about.
Don't forget about weapon switching so you can dynamically switch roles between the five mages. They can cycle through turns using melee weapon skills and then to ranged, in some giant yin-yang of mage massacre maelstrom.
mage massacre maelstrom.
I smell a guild name...
The very fact that mages used daggers, the very epitome of close up combat, should tell you not to expect the same old same old.
If I'm rolling with a group five mages deep, some party dynamic has gone horribly, horribly wrong.
In almost any other MMO you would be right... not so in GW2. That's the whole point of the "no holy trinity" thing. No matter what the group makeup there are still many options for how to tackle any objective.
If you mean Elementalist, you can switch to Earth Attunement, it has loads of defensive skills.
Necromancers are already durable. They have the highest health of all the profession and that does not include Death Shroud.
The problem is, Thief. So they may have to use Sword main-hand for defensive role.
See, given the normal life-cycle of MMOs, I can see these lasting all of about....three months. Three months, until the classes normalize, and the Mages become mages, the Thieves become DOT only, and tanks have their rightful place getting their asses spanked by mobs.
Wishful thinking says that "yeah, go for it Elementalist, you show that mob who's boss", but reality is going to scream with throbbing jugular, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING YOU STUPID NUKER GET BACK"
Absolutely wrong. They build and designed the whole game without the Holy Trinity. There is zero chance of
Three months, until the classes normalize, and the Mages become mages, the Thieves become DOT only, and tanks have their rightful place getting their asses spanked by mobs.
because the game wasn't designed to be balanced like that.
"WHAT ARE YOU DOING YOU STUPID NUKER GET BACK"
Man, wrong again. Unless there are groups who want to roleplay holy trinity scenes and "pretend" that Elementalists can't hold up to a mob just as well as a Warrior could, then there will be no group worried about an Ele sharing a bit of melee damage from the enemies.
Did you play MMOs before the WoW era? The last one I really played and enjoyed was Asheron's Call, which was totally classless and basically your character was whatever you put skill points in to. To be successful in that game everyone was some variety of mage/melee; it was a blast, and it worked very well. Things never really "normalized" because there was no best build and people were constantly coming up with new theories on how to fight and of course new items being added to the game would shake things up. This is why I can't wait for GW2, it doesn't offer total freedom with skills but there is enough variety to keep things fluid for a long time.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Proximity is just one indication. Current health levels, armor levels, buffs (like regen), and damage output will all certainly play a role, in some part, in the aggro system. We have no details as to how this will work out in practice, but this is pretty much exactly the same as the GW1 system, and it works out just fine (even without dedicated tanks, which are a rarity in GW1).
Also, they confirmed that the "proximity only" system in the demo was just a placeholder.
I am not sure about this but in the case of boss battles I am pretty sure the designers cooked up some interesting mechanics where the whole team will have to be on the ball not just the person closest to the boss.
If threat is determined only by proximity, then group PvE will be stupid in this game. Ranged classes like Elementalists will do awesome DPS and not have to worry about threat, while classes that require melee for optimal DPS like Thieves will be fucked. Yes, I know they can ranged DPS too, but their best PvE DPS will come from double daggers which require proximity.
According to the devs, a) there's a varying level of AI, with higher-level mobs using more advanced tactics, b) at the moment, at the basic level, proximity is one factor along with who's actually doing damage and how much, c) the current AI system available in the demos (simple proximity) is a WIP and mob balance/AI is what they are currently working on.
If I had to guess, it might end up similar to GW1's aggro system. Enemies often targetted the backline/healers first, followed by low-armor classes (casters) and generally attacked in a very logical pattern.
I hope it's something like gw1's system. Enemies in hard mode focus-fired (non-tanky) healers first, followed by DPS, and then would finally mop up anyone stupid enough to dedicate themselves to tank. They'd run out of AOE and snare/blind melee fighters so they were less effective. It was actually pretty sophisticated.
Of course you could theoretically trick it into making a dedicated tank work, generally that wasn't how it was played.
I'm thinking Tank from l4d. he'll gun for one guy, but if he's getting pounded on by anyone too close he'll switch.
I may be being dumb but what is meant by threat? Is this another WoW mechanic that people are applying to GW2?
A little late, but threat means basically how does the AI determine who to attack.
Probably who ever is doing the most damage. Every class has a way of dealing with threat in their own way.
Threat in GW does not work as you describe (contrary to a lot of other MMOs). There is no "threat score" you accumulate by doing damage; for GW1 the creatures chose their target based on the health and armor (low first), position (closest), and so on.
GW2 threat is simply whoever is closest to the enemy.
This isn't WoW. There is no 'threat'. Stop treating this game like others. It is Guild Wars and it will work like Guild Wars.
[deleted]
Threat will be dealt with by proximity. Whoever is closest has the aggro. I hope its not 100% like that though. I think it might be too easy to just change up positions to keep the mob occupied all the time. Maybe a small chance of gaining the attention of the mob if you do a particularly devastating move. You know just to keep things interesting
EDIT: It seems I was 1/2 wrong about the proximity thing for the final release. Proper aggro info here. Its not the only factor that determines threat. The more I thought about it and read the other comments the more I realized what a nightmare it could be if that was the only factor. I stand corrected... thanks for the knowledge reddit!
It makes sense in context though. Remember how much ArenaNet has hyped positioning in battle and how important it is.
Yeah, one thing they would need to watch out for is players all bunching up and potentially confusing the mob, it would have to commit to one of them though.
I'm pretty sure it's a huge combination of different things. Position, damage, etc. They are trying to make it make sense, like who would really be holding the attention of the creature/monster.
Currently it is exactly as ralgo said.
This would imply a dedicated tank role and.. ow wait yeah they want to get rid of that.
But they have stated that no one can take sustained damage over a long period of time and be "tank" for the entire instance. Everyone must rotate around and grab attention and tank for a short bit while they can, then someone else comes in. Self heals are the most powerful and will keep you up longest, but heals for others are considered weaker and possibly longer time between. So because theres no dedicated healer, no one can be a dedicated tank. They may be better at tanking and last longer tanking, but they will need someone else to switch over so they can recover themselves.
And why are you explaining what I said and am I getting downvoted... Sarcasm doesn't seem to hit home with everyone x)