Source
r/cscareerquestions•
fideasu

Is it really that hard to land a job in programming (especially the first one) these days?

Experienced

Disclaimer: It's not meant to be a troll post or it's not my intention to dismiss anybody's problems. Anyway, please remove the post in case it's not appropriate for the sub.

I see this sub is full of people complaining how hard it is to land a job, especially the first one, in programming. And I'm sometimes wondering - do we live in the same world?

Because most of them mention spending a lot of time in education, many on additional qualifications, some claim doing private side projects, and still being rejected in hundreds of interviews.

On the other hand, what I see in the real life in the company(ies) I work(ed) for, the vast majority of the candidates show up with inadequately low skills in the areas we need. Granted, you can't except a fresh graduate, or someone switching careers, to be a five star developer, but it's sometimes astonishing how people may apply to a job in C++ not knowing it's major syntax elements or basics of the standard library. And people who do know enough often jump out in the middle of the hiring process, presumably due to securing even better offer(s).

So I fail to understand, what's the problem here. Is my experience different because of cultural differences (I'm from Europe, and Reddit is famosly more American), field difference (C++, kinda "half-embedded"), or I just don't meet these people irl since HR rejects them before they reach us ("bad resume theory")? Or do I grossly underestimate how hard it is to learn C++ (or any other language) to a level where it's a no-brainer to prepare a few personal projects to show off?

If it sounds too harsh or dismissing. I apologize. I'm sure it's extremely frustrating to be unable to secure a job for months, and then hear someone basically claiming that it's "easy". I'm sorry, I just genuinely don't understand. But I'd like to understand, and that's why I'm asking.

Posted Feb 26, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

027
MarcableFlukeSenior Firmware Engineer•

I spend a bunch of time over on r/relationships and can't believe we live in the same world; I don't have nearly the kind of relationship issues people over there have

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

13
fideasuOPSoftware Engineer, Scrum Master, (unofficial) Architect•

Exactly what I was wondering about. But you can never be sure if it's the bubble you encountered that's somehow special, or is it your bubble (the one you live in) that's special.

-2
MarcableFlukeSenior Firmware Engineer•

But you can never be sure if it's the bubble you encountered that's somehow special, or is it your bubble (the one you love in) that's special.

I'm not sure about what sex bubbles have to do with this, but generally speaking, any place on the internet that is intended for people to get help will have a disproportionate number of people seeking help.

6
fideasuOPSoftware Engineer, Scrum Master, (unofficial) Architect•

Lol, I meant "live", not "love" (ninjaedited it 😂). What I meant is that I see two bubbles here: mine, where job hunting is easy (under certain conditions) and this subreddit, where it's hard. So IMO, it's the most interesting to know, which of these the rest of the world is closer to.

But you're right, people happy with their careers don't really have much a motivation to join this sub, let alone participate.

0
Evariste-Lovelace•

I applied at 0 places. Never had a dev job. Got a call from a recruiter randomly. Said ok send me email. Did the papers and passed 2 interviews. Had a job within a week. No degree.

That doesn’t mean I live in another world and everyone here sucks.

You also have to realize that when you got a job, you took that opportunity from someone else. Someone who’s been looking for a while, or had no luck.

1
snailv•

"I have a sandwich, world hunger is bullshit."

11
fideasuOPSoftware Engineer, Scrum Master, (unofficial) Architect•

I thought that writing two disclaimers (the first paragraph and the last paragraph) should be enough, but I'll reiterate: I ask because I want to understand, not because I'm trying to dismiss anybody.

1†
snailv•

It sounds like youre pretty familiar already, this sub is full of those posts. Anyone in this industry knows the situation. You want someone to pat you on the head, and spoon feed it to you like a baby. Foh

0†
fideasuOPSoftware Engineer, Scrum Master, (unofficial) Architect•

Whatever I want to know, one thing is sure - I won't get it from you.

1
snailv•

Wow more brilliant insight!

0†
[deleted]•

it's sometimes astonishing how people may apply to a job in C++ not knowing it's major syntax elements or basics of the standard library

I think there is a disconnect. I primarily work in python. I always see employers complaining that applicants can't fizzbuzz. But I always get like medium leetcode problems on interviews. I'd cum if I got a fizzbuzz problem.

8
fideasuOPSoftware Engineer, Scrum Master, (unofficial) Architect•

That's weird, I don't recall ever seeing any tricky code on an interview, neither given to me to solve, nor given as an exercise by any of my colleagues (and I've seen quite a few post-mortems from interviews). I may be unable to objectively judge the exercises I gave, but I always focus on seeing if you know the language (syntax) on a medium level and since general programming concepts. What exactly is the kind of leetcode you've been given?

-3
cheesecakesquared•

Quizzing people on syntax is kind of weird too. Many of us use an IDE to code. We may not remember what the syntax is off hand. Just because someone needs to do 10 seconds of research to solve the problem does not make them a bad developer.

1
fideasuOPSoftware Engineer, Scrum Master, (unofficial) Architect•

No, that's not what I mean. I mean people who claim to be able to code in C++, but then don't know how to dynamically create a class instance and say they never used either "new" or the "std::make_*" functions. Sorry, but on that level it's just wouldn't be able to effectively participate in our projects.

1
[deleted]•

If the hiring team is getting lackluster results, it means that whoever is responsible for recruiting isn’t doing that good of a job.

3
jeekiii•

No it is not. This subreddit is representative of people who struggle to find work, either because of the location, their skills lr something else.

When i finished my master every day i would get calls about offers, furthermore, everyone who studied with me has found a job as far as i'm aware.

It's just a product of the subreddit. This sub is highly attractive to people who can't find jobs because, well they want help for that. This means the sub's pooulation is highly skewed. This is just my opinion/theory though

2
fideasuOPSoftware Engineer, Scrum Master, (unofficial) Architect•

That makes sense and was what I thought too. Decided to ask anyway because, who knows, maybe the world is different outside of my small bubble?

1
NewChameleonSoftware Engineer, SF•

So I fail to understand, what's the problem here

because people often fail to include details

especially for the 1st job, details matters, a lot

from a European viewpoint (assuming both has 0 YoE), it'd be similar to saying a British citizen who's aiming for a 40k/year job in UK-London vs. an Egypt citizen who's aiming for a 100k/year job in France-Bordeaux, #1 could say "I found a job, no problem" and #2 could say "I've sent out 500 applications yet I got 0 callbacks"

same idea in the US, every city is different even if they're in the same state, if you asked "do I need leetcode" for CA-San Francisco I'd say yeah 100%, for CA-Vacaville I'd say "meh, probably not"

2
fideasuOPSoftware Engineer, Scrum Master, (unofficial) Architect•

Very interesting, thanks! I've never considered that, perhaps because I assumed someone who just enters this market should be ready to compensate for the lack of experience e.g. by accepting lower salary (for now) or being ready to move. Apparently not always the case?

1
NewChameleonSoftware Engineer, SF•

false

your salary is dictated by your exact city, company, and sometimes down to team

someone with 15 YoE in CA-Los Angeles might get paid $200k/year while someone with 5 YoE in CA-Mountain View might get paid $300k/year

where I come from (non-US, if converted to my local currency), your 1st internship's salary could be anywhere from $10/h to $65/h, both person went to the same school, both had 0 YoE, the biggest difference is 1 stayed and the other 1 moved to the US

1
fideasuOPSoftware Engineer, Scrum Master, (unofficial) Architect•

your salary is dictated by your exact city, company, and sometimes down to team

And by what you ask for. So if you ask less than average (not below some minimum, sure, but we all know that there's a lot of space between average IT salary and survival minimum), you could make yourself attractive even without professional experience (some amateur projects would still be nice to see IMO), don't you think?

1
NewChameleonSoftware Engineer, SF•

I was saying you'd still need to be aware of your own local market's price

imagine if I was a new grad and I ask for 150k in total comp, 150k USD TC is a totally fair TC for US-CA-San Francisco, but would be (laughably) insanely high for US-CA-Santa Cruz, that's what I meant when I said every city's different, so it's not as simple as "no exp = low salary, lots of exp = high salary" because it depends on your city

also, I don't know where you got the notion that by asking a low salary you'd make yourself more attractive: if I was a hiring manager and a candidate said to me "I know you're offering $100k/year but I'm willing to voluntarily take $80k/year" that'd be a giant red flag to me, I'm not thinking "person A wants $100k but this guy is okay with $80k, let's hire this $80k guy", I'm thinking "this guy must be shit, see? even he himself knows he's shit, no hire"

1
Im-Always-Lost•

My View may be a little biased because I am still in school so do with that what you will.

IMO it is pretty difficult to get that first job/internship when you want that first job to be at FANG. My first job was at my University Office of Tech working on some internal app which I got after showing I could reverse a string.

The attitude on this sub is more of a FANG or bust attitude. I am still in school and have secured a summer internship but I spend around 15 minutes each day looking for for a fall internship/part-time job. Every single day I see new postings for summer internships at many companies I've never heard of. I think students should of course apply to the FANG internships/jobs but also be realistic. If you don't have any past experience getting into FANG is rare, so focus on gaining experience wherever you can and reapply to FANG in a year or so.

Whether you have graduated or are still in school, gaining experience is king and goes a long way to getting that interview with FANG but FANG is the end all.

0
fideasuOPSoftware Engineer, Scrum Master, (unofficial) Architect•

I see. But tbh I find it a bit weird. When I was studying, it was quite obvious to look for a job or intership or whatever in any company, often small local companies. People were doing simple things, like apps or websites. Of course, everybody would be happy to get a position with one of the big companies (not necessarily the ones you mentioned), but the small ones were seen as at least a good starting point, and often as a place where you can have more influence than in a huge multinational.

As a side story, I actually once got an interview with one of the FANG companies (not directly after studies - a few years later). They considered me for two positions, but ultimately I didn't meet the requirements (skills) for these. And it was actually a good thing, since already during the interviews, I felt I'm not a good fit for these specific jobs. At the end I landed in a bit smaller (still huge) company and what I'm doing here fits me much better than what this previous one could offer me (totally different field).

Also, there're internship students working in my company too, and from what I see, this is quite popular and seen as very helpful. We give them (relatively) simple tasks; actually making students write unit tests is a kind of a meme now :D but they still learn A LOT on that and eventually usually land a permanent job either with us or other companies in the same field.

There's actually a student starting in my team next Monday. Looking forward to see how it'll work out, especially in the age of pandemics and work-from-home.

0