Women's issues? "Oh yeah!"
Posted Apr 18, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC
2.3K89
As someone who used to be that type of person, it’s mostly a defensiveness thing. People feel like you’re calling them whatever thing you’re talking about, even if it’s something they know they’ve never done. If you make the same argument about a group they’re not a part of, the thought of saying “but not all ____!” won’t even cross their mind. So while they may say “not all men!”, what they really mean is “but not me! I’m a good one! You don’t have to worry about me!”. They’re just trying to cover their own asses. Once you get a wider view of the issue, you stop saying it. Or at least I did.
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Sadly, judging by the comments here, many people have not come to the same understanding.
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Unfortunately, yeah.
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Forgive people for being defensive when the first thing they hear is an accusation.
I'm sorry but if you feel like you have to generalize to make a point and then be upset when people rightfully shit in your face for doing it, you kinda don't deserve support. I'm talking about shit like the "not all men are bad, but enough are so i have to act like all are". Nah. That's the same logic racists use and I ain't fuckin with that
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Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your point is that saying "not all men" derails the conversation about a meaningful issue towards women (or other) and makes the conversation more about the guy saying "its not all men" which is wrong of them to do. If so I agree, but saying "if you make the same arguments about a group they aren't a part off" isn't very helpful or necessarily true in most situations. Be careful not to fall into the trap of generalizing about any group of people please, but you are correct its not needed for people to come onto a post saying "not all men" but its also not needed for anyone to generalize about any group of people, people are their own self, but the important thing to remember is there's a time and a place for that conversation and that place is not when a women is reaching about about her experiences with men being horrible.
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I mean I was really just talking about my own experience growing out of being a “not all men” type of guy. My main point was that, at least for me, that type of attitude stemmed from a combination of defensiveness and lack of understanding of the broader issue. Wasn’t really trying to say more than that.
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If you make the same argument about a group they’re not a part of, the thought of saying “but not all ____!” won’t even cross their mind.
Nah. As a dude I've definitely done it for both genders.
Not that I blame men for only doing it when it's about them. People are naturally more likely to speak up when they are targeted.
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Ah, that’s fair. That’s just what I was like when I was younger.
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I had a similar journey a decade ago and saw it from a similar way, born mostly from my own insecurity. Appreciate how you put it here, nicely done
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It’s true, I used to do it with “white people ___”. It’s like, if it doesn’t apply to you, it’s not concerning you. But that doesn’t mean that a vast majority of white people don’t do that.
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No?? That’s not even close to what I said.
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Fellas, if you ever encounter a lady talking about her awful and traumatic experiences with men, it is generally not appropriate to respond “uh, what about me?” That is what this post is about, and contributing “what about when woman make generalizations about men?” Contributes nothing towards that particular discussion. Also it’s a generalization, so y’know, maybe they do mean you...
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First of all we don't fuck with generalizations here. Generalizations with negative connotation are always bad and there's literally no way to say it's different with this issue.
Anyways, most guys really don't want to hurt anybody. "What about me?" Is a guy asking if he did or does anything that makes her uncomfy. And if she goes "shut up this is about me", sorry mate, that's not gonna earn a lot of support.
Think about it, please. If i go around telling everyone who listens that all women do is lie and cheat, obviously someone is gonna say "not all women" and the shit I'd get if i said "stop derailing the conversation, obviously not all women but enough women", you get my point?
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I don’t agree that saying “not all men” or “what about me” is an invitation for feedback on how they can improve, so much as it is a request for validation. Of course it’s fine for our perceptions of how people are communicating to be different, but I hope we can agree that your support for someone who is talking about trauma should not be contingent on whether they hurt your feelings. I also agree that most men don’t want to hurt anybody, but you don’t have to want to hurt someone to be part of a problem, and I’ve spoken to men with awful attitudes towards women, who would completely brush off anything you said to them about it because “they’d never hit a woman”. And yes, saying “all women are liars” is as bad as saying “all men are rapists”, but nothing to that effect was eluded to in this post or my comment, so I’m not sure what I can do with that. You can count it as a win if you’d like to.
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hmmm maybe i wasnt as clear as i hope i would be.
My guy my support of a woman is very much contigent on how they treat me. Because I know my worth and I wont run around and support people who treated me like shit. Thats common sense. (i feel like i have to mention here that its a case dependence with prior experiences. A random woman wont get the same support a friend would receive, the same way that friend can be more hostile towards me before i drop them than a random woman could)
You dont get to expect or even have support from people you hurt. Is that a wild new concept? Where i come from, thats just the norm and common.
You said you dont have to want to hurt someone to be part of a problem, but you see, them not hurting someone is the minimum which they are fulfilling. Imagine it as a traffic light, those are fun.
Red: You actively hurt someone and support others who do the same.
Green: you openly show support for victims of violence and in your freetime you try to help them as much as you can.
But whats yellow? Yellow is doing neither. You dont hurt anyone, you dont support it either, but you also dont go out of your way to support victims.
I hope that makes clear why some men are fed up with a "anything below green and youre part of the problem, literally just as bad as people who actively hurt somoene" narrative.
They dont expect much. They just dont want to be put in a group with people whose actions they never mirrored, neither support nor condone. And if you do it anyways, you dont get to be suprised if they shit on you for that, you feel me?
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I guess those are just fundamental differences between you and I as people. I can not choose to be indifferent to someone’s experiences just because they weren’t kind to me, and I think that if you turn a blind eye to a problem you could easily help resolve makes you part of that problem (I think I got it from Spider-Man). And to be clear, there is a huge distinction between “I do not want to hurt women” and “I do not hurt women”, I’ll put it down to a miscommunication, but then, if you think most men are in the yellow traffic light, please take some time talking to the women in your life and asking about their experiences.
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I have question. What if a woman on Twitter says something like ‟Are men oky?” or ‟Men were a mistake” or ‟men are trsah”. What then?
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Excuse me my good sir. But all men are pigs is something said in twitter on a daily basis
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That saying is much older then twitter lol
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Theres this one thing that gets posted on r/cringetopia every couple months or so where a gal goes on twitter and says "men deserve happiness too" and all the replies are either saying no or heavily implying that its incorrect. Then again, Twitter is equivalent to yelling you opinions through a megaphone on a street corner and then getting beat to death so eh
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nothing, ignore them like any other time someone says stuff like that on twitter. You will live.
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Those posts are most likely TERF propaganda and should be called out as shitty.
TERFs began the "men are trash" campaign primarily to shame trans men for "betraying" their assigned gender at birth and make trans women feel like they're not "real women".
Of course, there are women who started speaking this way because of the saturation of these comments in the spaces they're in. If they're not TERFs, just mentioning that language like this is used to invalidate trans identities (and is just not how men need to be treated) will usually stop the behavior quickly (source: I used to say shit like this, then realized where it came from and how it was affecting people and stopped using it immediately).
So in this case, saying "not all men" isn't going to be more productive than pointing out the origins of these phrases and showing how they actively harm men that are otherwise allies to feminism.
And if the person doesn't really care? Just ignore 'em, my dude. They're not worth your time, anyway.
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idk. because heres my view. when i say "lol what are white ppl tryna do" everytime i see beans n toast, i dont mean that yt ppl suck or anything like that. its just comedy? but then theres also "all yt ppl shud die" when sum black dude got shot up by the cops. and thats not ok.
so ig it depends on the convo?
also id like to add: satire is making fun of the historically in charge, which is why my lol why are yt ppl joke is well taken from everyone and not considered offensive. for example: its not satire if u make fun of gay ppl dying of aids or whatever. its just rude. if that makes sense? i could be wrong
this comment is all over the place idk
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yeah that’s the usual conversation around punching up vs punching down at play
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Not all making fun of people is satire, even making fun of a group in power can just be rudeness.
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you pay attention to poeple in twitter?
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Ignore them, just like women constantly do when men post the same stuff about us. Except that we actually have the entire government against us as well
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Listen, I deeply care about women’s issues, but the second you start grouping all men together as the problem and painting us all with the same brush, you personally lost my support. Like, what does that say to me; that I keep supporting you guys, and then you have a mental image of all men that’s just... so toxic. You can go about being a feminist without completely disregarding all the men that want the same things you do.
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i dont understand this thought process.
"i support women's rights and care about their issues, but if a couple of them start just generalizing men; ALL women lose my support"
like what the fuck. once the entire MOVEMENT becomes like that? sure. but thats highly doubtful and never even happens. if they all become a cesspool of I HATE MEN then yeah, you can stop supporting. but its not like that. not one bit. so you shouldnt.
make sense?
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I never said all women lose my support, I literally said “YOU PERSONALLY lost my support.” You. The person generalizing.
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i thought you were using "you" as a generalization for the movement im so fucking dumb lmao-
^(ignore that) anyway-
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read again
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I can assure you that practically no feminist who is not a TERF genuinely believes that all men are bad. Its just a lot easier and more potent in discussion to say what amounts to “men do be like this” when compared to “sometimes a vocal minority of men do this” the second one makes the problem seem far less severe and less worth paying attention too. If a otherwise rational person complains about “men” than “not all men” is always just kinda implied.
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Saying that a minority of a group that does something does not make it appear less severe, whereas not specifying that and just saying men do this or women are like that does more damage than the former. Context, especially in text form can easily be missed/misconstrued, whether you twist it to agree/disagree with the statement. Its this all men or men mentality (along with various other menyalities) thats pushing many men into these alt right groups and radicalising. So while its easy to say "oh you know we dont mean ALL men", not everyone will get that, and it does do damage to society for not specifying.
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Saying that a minority of a group that does something does not make it appear less severe
Yes it does. It certainly minimizes the problem at least, when you say men (or women), you make it about men or women, about how society teaches people of either gender to act. (the actual systemic problem) when you constantly stress how small a minority is actually doing it, you make the problem about random individuals, which leads to the “thats just life” mentality, making doing anything to prevent it seem
just saying men do this or women are like that does more damage than the former.
Or people could just ignore the former to suit their own victim complex, look at that (Im ashamed that I’m about to bring up what is an ad) the Gillette controversy as an example. That ad consistently showed good men to counter the bad ones, showing that not all men are toxic yet people still responded with “not all men” like some kind of automated response. If you even touch on how society teaches men to act, and don’t just treat everything like a bunch of unconnected events, than you get the “nOt aLL MEn” response.
Its this all men or men mentality (along with various other menyalities) thats pushing many men into these alt right groups and radicalising.
no it is not. right wing propaganda makes people alt right. If a twitter user saying “Men are like blank” hurts you so mad that you actually become misogynistic/ radicalized than you were broken from the start and dont have the right to pass the blame onto victims of racism/misogyny.
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People don't like their identity being attacked through generalisations or stereotypes. It's wrong. Stop defending your bias
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on a side note, this glass jug is scary.
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is kool aid man holding a kool aid baby? is the kool aid baby sentient as well? what the heck is going on in that picture anyway???
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Yeah, how fucking terrible to not want to be lumped together with people who do horrible shit simply because we have the same genitals. Especially when talking about the absolute retardation that is patriarchy theory.
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nobody said that its terrible to not want to be lumped in with terrible men.
its just terrible when a woman is like "yeah i was very heavily abused by my partner... the police didnt believe me, and nor did my friends. i suffered in silence and-"
"YAH BUT NOT ALL MEN THO NOT ALL OF THEM ARE LIKE THAT -
like no one generalized u yet? ur jumping to ur own defense and nothing even happened.
obv if some girl is like KILL ALL MEN THEY ALL SUCK u can be like, "no, not all men"
but thats not what theyre talking about bc its says "any conversation about patriarchy" not "when we insult men" jfc read the meme.
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People here keep going to the defense against being generalized because when it comes to “patriarchy” there’s a lot of people who use it in the correct sense, but there’s also an undeniably large amount that use it when posting “all men are pigs” type stuff (Edit: sorry "correct" wasn't the right word here. I just meant alot of guys hear "patriarchy" or "misogyny" & automatically get upset because of how many generalizing post there are using those terms. I'm not saying it's completely fine, I just figured I'd give my take on an explanation for it)
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It is simple.
I don't view myself with that group.
If I do something that puts me in that group and I am on the agreement with the other group that is bad, I don't do the thing.
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Shitty thought progress, really.
"Oh you're tired of the racism against black people as a black person yourself? Simply don't view yourself as a black person, easy as pie"
Like you gotta know how stupid that sounds, right?
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Well that is not something under my control.
But not being racists is.
Also do you really compere racism with being called racist or was it just for example?
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I use it as an comparison to what you said. And yes exactly, it not under your control. Idk how to explain that to you, but you can't claim independence from a group that you're part of purely by existing.
It's common knowledge that humans are destroying the earth, right? I myself try to minimize the impact my existence has, so in a discussion i could very much say "yes but not all humans destroy the planet, some are trying to save it, some are trying to minimize their footprint", but i can't say "this doesn't apply to me simply because I'm not a human", you feel me?
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Could you elaborate on “the absolute retardation that is patriarchy theory”?
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Bruh... imagine thinking we don’t live in a patriarchy
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And then when MRAs or antifeminists react to videos of a handful of "feminists" being cringey: "This is why feminism is terrible".
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DUDE I JUST REMEMBERED THAT FEMINISTS WERE A THING! i forgot all about them for like a week and then i see this. shit now i dont know how to react to the fact that people actually believe that patriarchy is a thing
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You can leave the conversation to the adults, that's fine
You'll grow up to understand one day, dont worry
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why would i grow up to understand something which i dont believe in? i wouldn't need to grow up but to drop down to the level of a toddler who still thinks santa is real to understand. all the idiotic ideas of radical feminists have been disproven hundreds of times. why believe in myth when the fact is right before my eyes- radical feminists are dumb. feminism in healthy amounts is required for any country but how do you expect to call 50% of the world's population pigs and rapists and expect nobody to disagree?
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Why the hell does he never use the door
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Yeah , i agree that it shouldn't be the first that comes to my mind when woman open up about a traumatic experience but it doesn't mean it's okay anyway because of how fucking easy to do it is to say ''some men''. If an islamic terrorist attack happens and a family member of mine dies because of it does it mean i can start generalizing all muslim ? Words matter, if you say all men then every men have the right to feel called out. What's even worst is that gross generalizations made by adults often affect and influence young children a lot.
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My only problem with this, is that some people that support the Feminist movement will fill alienated when put in the same category with those part of the problem, personally i trie to not pay mind to it, but sometimes its hard when you're supporting people that still thinks of you an enemy. I know not all members of the Feminist movement think like this, but the ones that express generalizing views of men tend make me feel accused of something i didn't do and something im not.
And i have the same views when someone says all women.
Because man and woman aren't saints and devil's in disguise. We're human, and theirs going to be bad and good people on everyone. We like it or not theirs going to be good man and woman on the levels of saints and more, and, horrible man and woman that would put the devil to shame.
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Not trying to be for or against but here is one more key part of this whole debate (i am a white man btw so feel free to hate) some men actually a lot although wont do or agree to anything bad they simply don’t care if it happens to someone else... sadly I am one of these people not by choice but by the fact I am a diagnosed psychopath and do not have the ability to empathize or care aboot anything but can we agree the whole men just not giving a shit (besides mental illnesses) is also a problem?
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all men
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"Gamer"
yeah, the prophecy is true
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what
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Imagine not realizing that saying ‟not all [individuals]” in response to a discussion of systemic issues is simultaneously hand-wavey and gaslightey.
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I fucked your dad
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Not all dads!!!
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I fucked them all, Peepeepoopies.
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Fuck
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Could you explain to me how it's gaslightey?
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‟What about men day?”, every year, weeks before international women workers day.
‟What about straight pride?”, every June.
"What about mens day?", they say completely oblivious to the fact that mens day do exist. It is on the 19th of november.
I think your missing the point they're saying? not trying to defend them but
what they mean by that is that men's day, while yes it exists. is NOT celebrated as much as women's day.
On men’s day I see a lot of feminist accounts posting about men’s issues etc. On women’s day I see men posting about how women don’t deserve the day and when’s men’s day.
that does contradict what most of the internet says. and google. and studies...
can you show you me an article or maybe a study that says that father's day is celebrated as much as mother's day?
Then celebrate it
They can celebrate it, but Women's Day gets more traction on a larger scale. 'Thing that sucks about that is that it's corporations & big political figures that use Women's Day as a marketing/popularity ploy that's what makes it so big a lot of the time :(
They don't want to celebrate it. They just want to shit in people who celebrate international women's day
bruh
Interesting.
Google should change their logo on men's day like they do on women's day though.