Source
r/allthingsprotoss•
anon1moos

Advice on Skytoss vs Skytoss

[PvP]

Just to get the preambles out of the way, I am currently ~2700 on NA (and have been for quite some time). I know I miss probes here and there, I know I don't have a good build for PvP it is by far my worst matchup, so there is no need to point out those things.

I just had a pretty confusing game that I don't understand.

https://drop.sc/replay/19129075

It seems I am missing something fundamental about the way Skytoss units interact.

There is a big Skytoss interaction at ~20 min, I go into the fight with 3/3/3 10 tempests and 10 carriers, my opponent has 6 tempests, 13 carriers and is on 2/2/3. I lose this fight pretty dramatically. I know to focus fire the carriers with my tempest. Was I also supposed to focus fire with my carriers? It also seems my tempest do a lot of overkill damage, I guess I need to micro each tempest here? Any advice about this fight would be appreciated.

There are two other big fights later that I lose in similarly spectacular fashion, but by then my opponent is on 3/3/3, so my main question is about the fight at 20 min. Thanks!

Posted May 25, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

1428
otterfamily•

tempests are worse than carriers in a straight-up fight. Their value comes from their range. Based on the speed at which the tempests die each fight it looks like you're not microing them beyond focus fire. It's kind of like blinking stalkers into stimmed marines and a moving rather than kiting and blinking injured ones back. The main part of their utility is their ability to inflict damage without ever taking a fight. And the longer you remain at poking distance, the more that value increases. Your money would have been better spent on carriers it looks like in this game.

16
anon1moosOP•

Thanks for the stalker analogy, I will keep this in mind.

9
Yaegz•

I haven't checked the replay but I am assuming you didn't utilize your tempest advantage. Since he has more carriers he will win in an a move fight. You need to poke with tempest, snipe a carrier, back up, snipe another carrier and don't engage for as long as possible. Keep him at an arms length and let your tempest kill some carriers before you a move into him.

7
anon1moosOP•

I definitely did not do that, this is good advice thank you.

I thought the Tempest would be able to eat through the carriers over the course of a fight, I can see now that is incorrect.

5
Yaegz•

At your mmr it would probably be better to not even make tempest and go pure carrier in late game Pvp. You can be the one a-moving your army and force them to be the fancy one microing tempest.

6
anon1moosOP•

I think this game might have even been a win if I did that. A lot of people say things like “at your mmr” but even if I can’t actually just play like PartinG, I like to know how certain things in the game should be done. Even if I can’t actually do it myself.

3
why_am_i_so_sad•

The thing is, if you try to replicate the stuff parting or Has do, you probably will forget to macro. And honestly, speaking from experience, if you stop trying to be cute with some crazy micro moves and focus on getting your macro-mechanics and scouting down, you should steamroll your way to D3/D2 pretty quickly.

2
Reddit-Book-Bot•

Beep. Boop. I'm a robot. Here's a copy of

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2
anon1moosOP•

Good Bot

Lol

2
a_load_of_crepes•

I am not much better than you (3800), and I can see that you are acknowledging your macro issues and lack of opening build, but I am still going to say this - working on your macro and build is so, so, much more important than the tactical work of microing your tempest properly. I would recommend spending as much of your attention as possible on proper macro and then instead go for a-move type armies. So if you get to a late game skytoss army, just make them all carriers, a-move or shift click the opponent carriers, then go back and keep working on your macro. That's a better use of our limited APM.

If you start trying to kite with the tempest and keeping their army at a distance, your macro will completely fall apart. By the time you take your fight, you will have 6000 minerals and gas in the bank.

3
anon1moosOP•

My macro wasn’t perfect, and i acknowledge that, however I did our macro my opponent through most of this match. I had several thousand minerals and gas in the bank when I took this second engagement, and in a much better position to remax than they were. By the time he finally breaks me I’d lost 19k more resources than they did. It legitimately surprised me when I lost this fight between two maxed out Skytoss armies, and I wanted to know why.
Even if I’m at a low MMR, I enjoy following the game and trying to grasp the details even if I can’t execute them properly.

2
Kappadar•

Like the other commenters said it's because you built tempests and didn't micro them. You would've been better off just going mass carriers and focusing on macro

1
anon1moosOP•

My macro wasn’t professional level, but I in this match I outmacro my opponent up until the late game where I couldn’t hold onto my sixth and seventh bases anymore. By the time I’m finally dead here I’ve lost more resources than my opponent by 19k. There are only so many very bad fights that you can take and still have better macro win the game for you.
My question was about -how- to micro these tempests, which I think has been cleared up.

1
Kappadar•

Your macro was literally nowhere near pro level so idk why you're even saying that it wasn't. So I watched your replay and your overall macro was better than your opponent, there were obviously pretty big errors but it seems like you care more about losing the fights which makes sense

The first fight that you lost, you engage into batteries + cannons. You never focused down the overcharged battery, and as soon as his carriers attack you, your voids and stalkers are useless (Attacking interceptors), and your reaction to seeing the carriers is way too late, your tempests start one focusing them too late. You also had an Oracle which you could have used to scout where the carriers were and just kite them instead of a moving. That fight was basically 5 tempests vs 12 carriers, so no wonder you hard lose the fight. You even had upgrade advantage.

Second fight you had 3 tempests afk at your fourth, had upgrade advantage, but hard lost the fight since the fight was your 10 carriers and 7 tempests vs his 13 carriers and 6 tempests, with batteries at the end of the fight AND you attacked your own carrier to boot. If you had your 3 tempests with you, and kited, (and didn't attack yourself) you would have destroyed his army.

Third fight, 3 tempests still afk at your fourth, 11 temp & 8 carriers vs his 5 temp & 13 carriers + Battery + 10 stalkers + cannons. Again, having your 3 tempests + kiting would have let you win the fight. Tempests will never win a straight up fight vs carriers. You need to oneshot a carrier, run away + revelation, as they chase you, you oneshot again, etc as that guy recommended.

Also your tempests kept randomly attacking his interceptors every couple shots. And small thing, add 3~ archons and let them afk attack the interceptors. This is specifically for the first fight though, later on in the game you don't need to.

Anyway you get the idea. You would've won the game if you just went mass carriers and didn't try to micro, or you microed the tempests correctly. (Which is just more difficult, and should only really be done in higher elo)

Edit: Last fight you legit did not shift click ANY of your carriers. They would attack one, then the interceptors would move back, then attack again, then move back and attack his interceptors, then back again. You need to queue a move onto each of his carriers like he did.

2
Antares284•

Focus fire your carriers on his carriers. Also, ditch the tempests.

2
anon1moosOP•

ty!

1
Antares284•

You're welcome, but I didn't do it for you.

I did it for Aiur

3
Krexington_III•

"I know I miss probes here and there, I know I don't have a good build
for PvP it is by far my worst matchup, so there is no need to point out
those things."

Fix those things then?

2
cababacab•

I think it's clear that isn't what OP is asking...

2
Krexington_III•

Yes of course. I would argue that what the OP is asking is a distraction. At 2700 you should be murdering your opponent before skytoss VS skytoss is ever an issue.

1
cababacab•

Agreed in terms of what should be happening, but they acknowledged their general shortcomings and this was a question about winning a fight, not winning the match.

You're completely correct in general terms - but it wouldnt be helpful if everyone who responded to Qs simply said to macro better or to improve EPM etc.

3
Krexington_III•

You have a point! Maybe I'm just grumpy.

2