What do you think of the Avatar tv show, and how the movies changed the pronunciations of names?

I wrote this after reading this thread.

The movie changed the pronunciations of names to sound like how Asians would pronounce them(source).

Idk how accurate the movie's pronunciations were (I kinda doubt that they were accurate), but it always bugged how negatively people reacted to the change.

People are (rightfully imo) mad at the movie for whitewashing the cast, but they also want the movie to use the show's pronunciation. Some people also say that the show's pronunication "should be considered the original", or that it's fine for the show to have different pronunciations since it's a fantasy show.

What do all of you think?

Posted Jun 20, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC · edited

39
Sunandshowers•

The thing to remember about the show is that it was inspired by many real-world cultures, and not all of them are even Asian. None of the in-universe cultures were strict with adhering real-world counterparts, either.

With that said, they do write in Chinese in the show, and the main cast does have canonical Chinese names. Interestingly, here are their names in Japanese. When M. Night Shyamalan did the film, I don't know how many of these names and transliterations were canon, but Uncle Iroh might not have had the overcorrected name had they been.

I've heard that Sokka's name is based on the phrase, そうか (sou ka). His Mandarin name, 索卡 (Suǒ kǎ) is closer to this pronunciation than the Japanese localization, サカ (saka), which closer reflects the English pronunciation.

Unfortunately, since the show is more influenced by Chinese culture and there are fewer media-based cultural exports, fewer people will give the time to entertain the notion of their now canon names. Because there's a blend of cultures, too, even someone who knows one or two of these languages might not know that someone else's name comes from a separate language entirely.

There's not enough discourse for people to realize the mispronunciations, and fans will lend credence to an actor's performance over a creator's intent for something they themselves couldn't pronounce.

Anyway, I'd love if they went with as close to their intended pronunciations should be rather than what was originally presented to us. It would show a deeper respect to the cultures that are being used as inspiration. They don't have to be 100% accurate, but they should be closer to what their actual canonical names are. Ignoring the various real-world cultures because it's a fantasy show would be less cultural appreciation and more cultural appropriation (and I don't mean that in the technical term, since it's still cultural appropriation, regardless). That said, if you need to be a linguist to enjoy the show, then that would push fans away.

Sticking to the original pronunciation would be a way to appease the vocal diehard fanbase, who are already upset that it's getting a live-action production. People are so connected to what they hear first vs what the intended pronunciations are--The few times you want to avoid intended pronunciations would be when their names would be too similar to another word that makes it inappropriate. Apparently, Katara's name had to be changed in Greek because her name's the same word for curse (κατάρα). We're not having these issues with these names in English, of course, so give the names their intended pronunciation.

It's not a "fantasy" series in the same way that Drizzt Do'Urden is a Drow or that there are Dothraki with their own conlang. It's "fantasy" where Frodo and Geralt have real-world cultural counterparts and cognates that follow rules. Anyone who dismisses this because "all languages are made up" are missing the point of the cultural context within these made up systems. It means something to the people whose cultures are being referenced and being used for inspiration. This would also be a hot topic with so many ways to approach it. Good luck to the original creators adapting their work into a live-action medium.

3
AmazingFish117OP•

Thanks for taking the time to respond! You make a lot of excellent points, and I agreed with almost everything you said.

2
tomanonimos•

Sticking to the original pronunciation would be a way to appease the vocal diehard fanbase, who are already upset that it's getting a live-action production.

I disagree on this sentiment that it was only the extreme/diehard end upset. The vocal ones were diehard fanbase but its an overall consensus among fans that the names were not well received.

1
Sunandshowers•

I didn't say it was "only" group upset. You're right in that it wasn't just the diehard groups though. The sentiment I was alluding to were those in both camps though. There are plenty of fans who don't want a live-action adaptation, whether or not they're hyperfanatic about the original series. We're not disagreeing on anything. I was just haphazard in writing a lengthy reply.

If anything, I know my sentiment is definitely a fringe opinion, and it's posted in a group that is associated tangentially to the series. The Asian American voice is drowned out in general. Those calling for a more appropriate pronunciation are those more cognizant of the origins of these cultures.

Even then, I know it'll take me some time to adjust since I don't really say their names out loud, and my own thoughts are still attached to the original pronunciation. But. That doesn't mean I can't change that. We need to normalize closer pronunciations so as to lessen the dismissal of real life examples.

But yes. Thanks for calling that out

1
BSWolf777•

Something I wanna bring up whitewashing in the movie is that the TV show was just as bad about it seeing how almost all of the core cast was voiced by white actors/actresses. The few main characters who actually got to be voiced by Asian actors (one of whom passed away) were also villains or at least antagonistic faction characters.

In general, the fact that the show and movie both touched on real-world cultures, places, and events (Lake Laogai, the genocide of the air-nation and the destruction of their culture, etc) but didn't actually take the time or resources to include the people affected by it is the larger issue, and the name pronunciation is another symptom of that.

Yes, it's a fantasy show, but something like say "Tenzin" is a real name people have and not something just made up out of nowhere. The fantasy races within the show are coded and based off of real cultures and even though the show is fantasy, fantasy writers still need to be conscious of racial coding in their work because the conflicts and events they come up with rarely aren't coming out of nowhere.

More authentic pronunciations would have been better if you're going to have a bunch of people who aren't Asian mix and match a bunch of different Asian cultures and then not actually include many of those same people in the writing and acting process. It really comes through that this was written and heavily influenced like white people when you have things like portraying a woman who was kidnapped and had her people seized by colonizers and is a literal camp survivor. There's also the fact that Asians, alongside many other marginalized groups of people are discriminated against very heavily in the entertainment industry.

I'm not trying to pick on Avatar specifically because this is an industry wide problem, but the show is also a good case study for seeing some of the consequences that come about due to those inequities.

3
AmazingFish117OP•

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

The whitewashing in the show is definitely an important point. It reminds me of Apu and the Simpsons (I think the way Apu was portrayed was a lot worse, but still).

I think the show did have some Asians working on it, but the more prominent positions (like the voice cast or directors) seem to be mostly white.

The show's whitewashing seems to be something that people don't talk about. I've only started to hear discussion about it in the last few years, and even then, there's not a lot of it.

I know this isn't really related to this sub, but I think the show also takes influence from Native American and Inuit culture, and I think those groups should have had been included more in the creative process as well.

1
BSWolf777•

Absolutely. It shows with characters like Iroh and Hama where they can portray a man who literally led the genocide of numerous people (and only stopped when it affected him personally) as sympathetic, but a camp survivor who wants revenge on the people who starved and kidnapped her people is a one-off evil witch.

Apu was a mess for sure and I think the conversation is a lot easier when you look at it as employment discrimination on racial grounds, which is pretty much what happens. The Simpsons showrunners also had a similar issue. I wish I could remember who it was, but there was this woman who spoke up about some of her brief experience on the writing team and how she had been shut out of some opportunities because of the climate.

Just thinking of a number of animated Asian characters offhand, so many of them aren't actually voiced by Asian people nor do episodes that supposedly explicitly deal with Asian culture in some way involve anybody to actually discuss it.

A lot of times showrunners will at most hire a consultant for a single episode or have actors who aren't white, but they have such small roles in the series that it's not really noteworthy. A lot of times analysts will map this kind of data by spoken lines to show like a show could have 10 non-white actors but they only get one line in two seasons or something.

I admittedly know more about the disparities with the way Hollywood treats black people since it's my heritage and all, but it's all cut from the same cloth. Some other issues if you're curious are when directors are given smaller budgets despite consistently being more profitable with less money, being far more demanding in script preparation and pitching, and looking at other demographics combined with race like gender, disability status, etc.

It's a real shitshow of an industry when you start looking at a lot of the research done

2
AmazingFish117OP•

The comparison between Iroh and Hama is interesting, but I don't know if I agree with it. On a fundamental level, Iroh started as a general, but he develops into a kinder man whereas Hama becomes the evil that she experienced and hates.

I think it would have been interesting if the show focused more on Iroh's development though. If you look at Iroh closely, I think he does change over the course of the show. But going from a general who inevitably caused death and destruction to the character that he is at the end of the series is still a big change, and we don't really see that in the show.

1
BSWolf777•

Developing into a kinder man after committing actual atrocities is the issue though. They write the darker skinned characters in such a way that chastises them for rightfully being angry at their oppressors when it would make more sense to still characterize someone like Jet or Hama as ruthless if flawed, but given more nuance than a single episode.

I don’t deny that Iroh changed. I’m saying “why would you pick an actual war criminal for this character arc?” It’s a narrative that’s really comforting to white people that minorities showing anger or desiring revenge is wrong, which is why they have Hama stupidly taking revenge against randos.

If I’m writing someone who endured abuse and was kept in a camp, the last thing I’m gonna do is act like that person is a one off evil, mindless witch obsessed with revenge because I want to show off this cool action scene.

That’s what I’m getting into though, especially when a number of events in the show like the destruction of the air tribe is based on real events in history. There’s an episode where Aang’s temples are being destroyed and they pretty much brush him off later despite him being right to feel upset about sacred religious areas being destroyed.

When you start lining it up or using the trauma of real people for entertainment, you have to be very cautious and it’s why it’s valuable to include people who aren’t white guys copying and pasting their favorite fantasy stories together.

2