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r/tolkienfans•
CastFromHitpoints

A few tidbits I found remarkable from the preview of The Nature of Middle-earth [SPOILERS]

In the Text A of Section VI The Awakening of the Quendi in the preview, Tolkien briefly discusses how the chronology of the time between the awakening of Men and their entrance in Beleriand (year 310 after the Return of the Noldor) should be fixed according to the intended longer equivalence between Valían and Solar Years (1 VY = 144 SY). Ultimately, he comes to the figure of 64534 years between those events. And then, Tolkien mentions that, it being the year 1960 of the 7th Age, and that around 16000 years had happened since, thus the “scientifically insufficient” but “adequate for the purposes of the Silmarillion” estimate for the time of Men upon Arda was ~80000 years total. And this is what interested me, especially the latest item:

  • The chronology of the later ages gets iffy again, with another possible starting time for the Seventh Age, now it may have begun at the birth of Jesus, not with the fall of Hitler.

  • 16000+310-590-3441-3021=9258 years. Give or take some inaccuracies in his estimate, let’s round it at 9500 years or so. In the secondary-world Earth, the events told in The Lord of the Rings happened almost nine and a half millennia before Professor Tolkien’s time!

  • It may be a coincidence, but the 80k years estimate puts the Awakening of Men quite close (geologically) to our primary-world estimate for the Toba Supervolcano eruption (~75k years ago), a catastrophe that might’ve caused a near-extinction of our species with only a dozen thousand humans left alive after it.

What do you think?

Posted Aug 5, 2021, 2:06 AM UTC

187
Lothronion•

In the Text A of Section VI The Awakening of the Quendi in the preview, Tolkien briefly discusses how the chronology of the time between the awakening of Men and their entrance in Beleriand (year 310 after the Return of the Noldor) should be fixed according to the intended longer equivalence between Valían and Solar Years (1 VY = 144 SY).

I am very curious on why did JRRT consider that Men evolved to be so civilized and cultured by the year FA 310 (First Age Solar Year), when he himself had already provided an explanation for that. And that is of course that the Men had a headstart by being educated and taught by the Avari Elves in the ways of language and living, hence why they were so quick to adapt and spread all over Endor. Not to mention how the 310 dating is not that outrageous for the Edain to have reached Beleriand, if they did so in about 250 years (after the espace of the Edain following the Battle of Palisor), since the Elves did the same journey in a similar timeframe (200 solar years in former version, 420 solar years in later version).

I am eager to read more on the Awakening of Men in this later version, and whether it comes in conflict with the ones presented in the "Tale of Gilfanon" and the "Tale of Adanel", which do not contradict each other.

The chronology of the later ages gets iffy again, with another possible starting time for the Seventh Age, now it may have begun at the birth of Jesus, not with the fall of Hitler.

That makes quite a lot of sense. As a Christian, for Tolkien it would be only reasonable to have a whole age of time start with the Incarnation and Nativity of the Creator. Not to mention how Hitler is utterly and absolutely irrelevant and meaningless in the scope of the Legendarium, since he is merely a Man, a leader of a Mannish nation (Germany) and only one who brought death and destruction after very briefly annexing a subcontinent (Europe). Nothing compared to the eternal menace that was Sauron. I suppose, within the internal narrative of the Mythos, the end of the Seventh Age should be expected to be Dagor Dagorath and the Apocalypse.

16000+310-590-3441-3021=9258 years. Give or take some inaccuracies in his estimate, let’s round it at 9500 years or so. In the secondary-world Earth, the events told in The Lord of the Rings happened almost nine and a half millennia before Professor Tolkien’s time!

That version is far far better than the one that the War of the Ring took place 6000 years ago. It explains why there are no Sumerians wondering about all the Dunedain, Elves, Trolls and Orcs running around. But seriously, the time distance makes things a little easier to make believe of the mythological past of the Legendarium, and gives time for the massive geologic destrution that would have marked the end of the Fourth Age (which is also implied by C.S. Lewis to be the Ice Age, and reason for the end of Numinorean Civilization), and how the West-lands became Europe.

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Neo24Pity filled his heart and great wonder•

I am very curious on why did JRRT consider that Men evolved to be so civilized and cultured by the year FA 310 (First Age Solar Year), when he himself had already provided an explanation for that. And that is of course that the Men had a headstart by being educated and taught by the Avari Elves in the ways of language and living, hence why they were so quick to adapt and spread all over Endor.

I think the bigger problem - and one that Tolkien found more pressing - is that 3 centuries does not seem enough for Men's languages to have diverged so much (the language of the Haladin being completely alien to the other Edain, and the Easterlings speaking yet different ones) starting from zero. There's also the matter of differences in appearance (the Druedain especially), though I guess Men might have already woken up with them completely present. But he was at that point in general attempting to make the Legendarium at least a bit more scientifically plausible.

EDIT: Also, if Men are able to develop and spread so quickly just with the occasional help of the remaining Avari Elves (and despite the dangers of a Middle-Earth under Morgoth's influence), it kinda lessens that other idea that the Valar made a big mistake by removing the Eldar from Middle-Earth, instead of leaving them to act as permanent teachers to the Men.

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maglorbythesea•

Interestingly, this moves the "historical" date of the Downfall of Numenor from around 7000 BC to around 10,000 BC. Recall that Plato puts the Downfall of Atlantis at around 9500 BC.

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derezrThe Reckoning of Years loremaster•

I think I need to add another synchronization setting to my Middle-earth calendar simulations! :)

FYI, to see YS310 = 16000-years-before-1960C.E. in my calendar simulations now, you can manually set the Shire Calendar to "Start reckoning from" Dec. 23, -13760, and the Reckoning of Rivendell from Mar. 22, -14349.

That puts 1960 C.E. in the 16310th Year of the Sun, or S.R. 10679; and that puts today in the 16371st Year of the Sun, or S.R. 10740.

 

edit: That also puts the end of the Second Age around 10320 BCE, and the end of the Third Age at about 7299 BCE.

I agree that we probably don't have to take his "only ... 16,000 years ago" as meaning exactly 16000 years before 1960 CE, so consider those dates only as close as that 16000 years-ago estimate.

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ibid-11962•

Oh is that what Tolkien meant by 310 Bel? I just assumed that the 590 years start at VY 1500 like in the Grey Annals, and so that the 16,000 years start 266 years before YS 1. (122 years left of VY 1498 + 144 years of VY 1499).

Thus I got 8,682 years.

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derezrThe Reckoning of Years loremaster•

Right, the note says "The Atani entered Beleriand in 310 Bel." Since Men first entered Beleriand in the First Age Year of the Sun 310, then he's using "310 Bel." for some reason as an abbreviation YS 310. Since he's saying here that YS 310 is "22nd Sun-year of VY 1498", I guess that means YS 1 starts at the beginning of VY 1496 in this version.

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ibid-11962•

The new google books preview has the abbreviations page, which says that Bel. means "Year(s) of Beleriand (i.e. since the arrival of the Exiles in Middle-earth)"

I think in the Annals of Aman the years of sun did not start until VY 1500. So either Tolkien was changing the timeline here, or perhaps Bel. counts from when Feanor arrived, while regular YS counts from when Fingolfin arrived.

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