Source
r/China_Flu•
Foreign_Load

Countries mixing and matching different types of vaccines are experimenting with their public.

:icons8-speech-bubble-24: Discussion

There are different types of vaccines (vector vaccines , mRNA vaccines ) and we don't know what kind of side effects combining these different types may cause but in many countries governments seem to mix and match them without any concern for the health of their public.

WHO has been warning about mixing and matching practices and clearly states that we do not have "the scienfiic evidence showing us that this is okay, yet " but many countries are ignoring these warnings and going ahead with all kinds of mixing and matching practices and unfortunately nobody is even talking about this.

This is not the right way, the proper way of doing it.

Posted Aug 8, 2021, 8:17 AM UTC · edited

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tot1721•

I think just about everything about Covid-19 has been handled the wrong way.

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Foreign_LoadOP•

Yupp. But the weird thing about this one is that they don't even want talk about it. Its like any criticism against vaccines is automatically perceived as being anti-vax and they don't want to hear about it.

Several countries which have been vaccinating their public with coronavac have already switchced to Pfizer or another vaccine some time ago , just like that , without any scientfic evidence showing that this is okay. They are not even informing their public properly . As you said it , its all being handled the wrong way.

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Plmnko14•

The WHO, CDC, and the US government lied to the public from day 1. What makes people feel that they can be trusted now? I just don’t get it. They knew it was a major problem that this virus was highly contagious from person to person and covered it up as long as they could. Told everyone that masks were not necessary and that the risk was low. They are not honest about the adverse effects from the vaccine and use that as a benefit to push the product by saying that means it’s working. Then they lie and said breakthrough cases are extremely rare then stopped counting all breakthrough cases. Then the US pushed the narrative that the majority of our hospitalized were non-vaccinated when reports around the world are saying that 40% or more are fully vaccinated. Now they want everyone to have booster shots. I’ve learned that when you are constantly lied to that you should stop trusting those that lie or you are just as stupid as the ones lying. It seems there are many stupid people out there.

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Foreign_LoadOP•

I am not from the US but the situation is similar in many countries as well, lots of lies and misinformation by the governments.

I am not against the third shot btw but many countries/governments have been vaccinating their public with Coronavac , since they have convinced their public that "Coronavac was a very effective vaccine" but now that they realized that its not that effective as they claimed they are switching to mRNA vaccines as a third booster shot. This is a risky business, and the WHO is warning about such mix and match practices. We don't know yet whether its okay to combine these vaccines , we don't have the scientific evidence yet.

Even though the WHO is warning against it many governments simply ignore these warnings , they don't seem to care and they are not informing their public properly. These governments are simply using their people as guinea pigs for a mass experiment on the public.

But the situation is even worse than this , even the pro-vaccine people dont want to talk about this since any criticism against vaccinations is being perceived as being anti-vax which absolutely is not the case here. Even here on reddit i have been trying to post about this a few times but my posts are being deleted or ignored. People just dont want to hear any criticism against the vaccines or vaccination campaigns whatsoever.

One doesn't have to be anti-vax to criticize the way the vacination campaings are being done in various countries and the way many governments going ahead with all kinds of vaccine combinations "WITHOUT ANY SCIENTIFIC PEER REVIEWED EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP" is simply wrong .

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Plmnko14•

Any questions about the vaccine can get you deleted or banned. Honestly I think it a way of controlling the entire narrative to keep others from asking questions. It’s not any different here in the US. I remember all the posts from people in China warning us about this virus and then they all disappeared from social media. The same is happening here. You are not allowed to have those conversations. I have never been one of those conspiracy theorists but now with everything that I see going on, it just doesn’t make logical sense. I hope you and your loved ones stay safe.

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CatsSolo•

It's happening all over Canada. Mix and match is being sold as a great thing. Cough.

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Foreign_LoadOP•

yeah the great experiment :/

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vr_digitaldictator•

Until March, ChAdOx1 (AstraZeneca) in Germany was only recommended for people under 65 (too less data for older people in trial studies). Now it´s recommended only for people older than 60 due to increased risk of blot clots (especially for younger women). Since April it is recommended for those under 60 who received AstraZeneca as a first shot to get an mRNA-vaccine as second shot. There are plans for for a third dose for people at high risk which should be done with an mRNA-vaccine (with vector vaccines, there could be problems due to vector immunity).

Several studies regarding "mix and match" are mentioned here: https://www.dw.com/en/mix-and-match-vaccines-biontech-astrazeneca-better-than-one-shot/a-57819127

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Foreign_LoadOP•

Thanks for the information. Yeah the biggest concern seem to be the mixing the vector vaccines with mRNA vaccines which is still mostly an "unknown" till now.

There are professional opinions , non-peer reviewed trials , trials on animals etc about various vaccine combinations but so far i haven't seen an actual "peer reviewed trial showing that you can mix a vector vaccine with a mRNA vaccine". However many countries have already been mixing these up as if its nothing to worry about and that's the problem.

I will check the link. 👍

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moxievernors•

It's based on a South Korean briefing, and not a formal study afaik, (the usual caveats - small numbers, unknown details), but this article on breakthrough rates for different vaccines (including Astra Zeneca followed by Pfizer) implies there's a case to be made for mixing. (Again, caveats with a capital C).

There may be long term effects from any of these vaccines (mixed or not) that aren't currently expected - and with billions of people each with their own unique genetic make-up, it's bound to happen to more than a few of them.

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Foreign_LoadOP•

It's based on a South Korean briefing, and not a formal study afaik, (the usual caveats - small numbers, unknown details), but this article on breakthrough rates for different vaccines (including Astra Zeneca followed by Pfizer) implies there's a case to be made for mixing. (Again, caveats with a capital C).

Yes of course i totally agree. I also think that mixing vaccines will !!! EVENTUALLY !!! probably be a good thing and will have positive effects .

However these are all "OPINIONS" until we test it and we have the scientific evidence to support it right ? And thats excactly the issue here . Opinions are not facts. We should not take opinions as scientific facts and make decisions based on these since its a public health issue and we don't want to risk it.

Basically the bottom line is " All the decision MUST BE based on scientific evidence . They MUST BE tested and supported by trials , tests , peer reviewed research BEFORE we can apply them ". However what many governments are already been doing right now is simply ignoring this and going ahead with GUESSES and OPINIONS. This is not how science works and how health care should be practiced.

There may be long term effects from any of these vaccines (mixed or not) that aren't currently expected - and with billions of people each with their own unique genetic make-up, it's bound to happen to more than a few of them.

Yupp. And when you mix and match all kinds of vaccines the RISK of creating these kind of side effects is HIGHER since these are NOT TESTED METHODS and this is exactly why we shouldn't mix and match BEFORE we get the test results.

Simply put : FIRST you test it , and THEN you apply it but whats going on now in many countries right now is the other way around and this is wrong. Many governments are simply experimenting with their public right now . Most of the time the public is not even informed enough about this.

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corvus7corax•

People mix vaccines for other diseases all the time. Annul flu vaccines - different every year, tetanus booster shots - do you even know what brand you got last time? Measles boosters etc. It’s a common practice and happens all the time.

Of course large corporations that make lots of money from brand loyalty would definitely spend marketing dollars on discouraging mixing to make more money.

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Foreign_LoadOP•

People mix vaccines for other diseases all the time. Annul flu vaccines - different every year, tetanus booster shots - do you even know what brand you got last time? Measles boosters etc. It’s a common practice and happens all the time.

well these mRNA vaccines are rather new for being used against coronavirus and mixing a vector based vaccine with an mRNA based one may create problems so we shouldn't make decisions about it based on vaccines on OTHER viruses. Not every virus is the same and not every vaccine is the same. Not for nothing the WHO is warning us about mixing and matching right ? Its not as simple as "others have been doing it for other viruses so we can also do the same for this virus " .

Of course large corporations that make lots of money from brand loyalty would definitely spend marketing dollars on discouraging mixing to make more money.

I doubt that is the case. In fact it could even be the other way around.

As far as i know most countries who have chosen for coronavac for their vaccinations are now beginning to realize that its not that effective against the newer variants so they want to top it off with a BOOSTER shot of a "BETTER" moire effective vaccine and that "better " vaccine is usually biontech or moderna vaccines .

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Redd868•

I read stuff like this about the J&J vaccine:

Ad26 is from Ad species D and can engage CD46 as its cellular receptor, whereas ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 is from Ad species E and uses the Coxsackie and adenovirus receptor (CAR) ...
In addition, the Ad26.COV2.S vaccine transgene codes for a membrane-bound SARS-CoV-2 S protein (prefusion conformation–stabilized by two proline substitutions) that does not shed S1, most likely as a consequence of knocking out the furin cleavage site (reference S5), which is different from the unmodified S protein encoded by the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine.

That's a level of detail that is beyond my pay grade. Yet someone needs to look at the minute details of how these vaccines work to determine whether mixing them is appropriate.

Even mixing the mRNA vaccines - someone has to look at the genetic instructions to see if mixing them is compatible.

Right now, this mixing of vaccines looks like quackery. And for most of us right now, who are vaccinated and not immunocompromised, we don't need a booster. Want additional protection - wear a mask. According to the hospitals, we're all set for Delta - they're having problems primarily with unvaccinated people.

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Foreign_LoadOP•

That's a level of detail that is beyond my pay grade. Yet someone needs to look at the minute details of how these vaccines work to determine whether mixing them is appropriate. Even mixing the mRNA vaccines - someone has to look at the genetic instructions to see if mixing them is compatible.

Well the thing is no matter how much we may know about the vaccines we still wont know whether its safe to mix them or not UNTIL WE TEST IT . There s absolutely no other way around this. Remember last year when they were testing the vaccines? And we were waiting for the result of those phase 3 trials BEFORE they would start vaccinations ? The same thing here , you first test it and then , and ONLY THEN you know if you can mix them . This is why there are all these rules about doing trials before introducing any medicine or vaccine.

Right now, this mixing of vaccines looks like quackery. And for most of us right now, who are vaccinated and not immunocompromised, we don't need a booster. Want additional protection - wear a mask. According to the hospitals, we're all set for Delta - they're having problems primarily with unvaccinated people.

Well it depends on which country you are from and what kind of vaccines they have been using and what they are mixing them with. For example In many countries they have introduced this coronavac as a very effective vaccine but 6 months later they have found out that its not as effective as they thought it was. So this is why they are mixing it with another vaccine to fix this problem . So even though you may not be immunocompromised if you are from one of those countries which have used coronavac in their vaccination campaigns you may still have rather low protection against the virus specially the newer variants of it.,

Basically now they want to fix this mistake they made by using a vaccine with low efficacy by ADDING a new so called BOOSTER shot on top it using another vaccine , like Biontech or Astra zeneca . This is a problem since these vaccines may create complications when mixed together. We still don't know how safe mixing these vaccines is so they shouldn't be doing it before we have peer reviewed research results about it.

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Redd868•

I can tell you this much - they won't be doing it on me. Proceeding with this without trials is quackery.

In the U.S., the pandemic kicked off with advice to not wear masks. I knew right then and there that we were dealing with quacks and liars.

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Foreign_LoadOP•

Agreed lots of quacks and liars on one hand but also lots of anti-science people on the other so we are stuck in the middle of all this.

I am not personally against vaccines when they are done right but we have to stick with the scientific evidence before we start experimenting with all kinds of mixing and matching practices like many governments are already doing.

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Protato900•

This subreddit: "WHO bad, they lie and are in China's pocket"

Also this subreddit: "WHO said no mixing vaccines, I can't believe countries would mix them anyway!"

All vaccines work, the efficacy of mixing vaccines can be made with back-of-the-napkin math based on first/second dose efficacy of both vaccines used. There is no side effects that can result from this outside of side effects from each individual vaccine.

There are studies being done right now on efficacy of mixed vaccination regimes, and to say they are 'experimenting' is about as logical as saying giving out any vaccine is 'experimenting'.

The WHO said there is no scientific evidence showing the efficacy of mixed-vax regimes, not that it is less effective. Once the studies are published, there can be actual discussion about this - until then, this is speculation at best, and fear mongering at worst.

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Foreign_LoadOP•

This subreddit: "WHO bad, they lie and are in China's pocket"

Also this subreddit: "WHO said no mixing vaccines, I can't believe countries would mix them anyway!"

I dont represent this subreddit . If you have issues with others who made such claims take it to them please. dont just generalize like that blame it all on me.

All i a said was if the WHO is warning against mixing and matching of vaccines then there must be a reason for this right ? They are being cautious about the possible harmful effects of combining different types of vaccines and rightfully so. Its not okay to do these kinds of mixing and matching UNTIL we test it .

All vaccines work, the efficacy of mixing vaccines can be made with back-of-the-napkin math based on first/second dose efficacy of both vaccines used. There is no side effects that can result from this outside of side effects from each individual vaccine.

Biology does not work like that . You can ONLY know for sure when you test it.
Example : Vaccine A may have 5 side effects and vaccine B may have 5 side effects but when you combine them they may have 20 side effects . So its not always 5+5=10 side effects . It could be LESS side effects when you combine them or it could be much more than the total , so you can never know until you test it.

with other words, the side effects of each vaccine SEPARATELY does not always add to the total of them COMBINED . You can know everything about the vaccines individually but you still may not know what the effect will be in combination , when you combine the two.

The ONLY way to know it for sure is to test it. That's why trials are mandatory.

There are studies being done right now on efficacy of mixed vaccination regimes, and to say they are 'experimenting' is about as logical as saying giving out any vaccine is 'experimenting'.

Yes there are studies being done as we speak but we dont know the result of those studies YET .

The mere fact that there EXISTS these studies/ experiments to determine their combined effects proves you wrong , doesnt it ? Think about it . :) If we ALREADY KNEW their effects and if it was as simple as back-of-the-napkin math (as you are claiming) then we wouldn't have to test them right ? Why do you think these experiments are being done then ?

The WHO said there is no scientific evidence showing the efficacy of mixed-vax regimes, not that it is less effective. Once the studies are published, there can be actual discussion about this - until then, this is speculation at best, and fear mongering at worst.

1-WE are not worried about their efficacy but more about their side effects

2-When there is no evidence YET , you dont know for sure what the effects will be which means you ARE experimenting . Period. There s no other way to put this.

Simply put UNTIL you test it , until you get the results of those experiements which you have mentioned you should not use vaccine combinations. When you do you are experimenting on your public.

Anyway this is an old post now so probably nobody reads it any more so I am not going to respond to the comments .

Take care .

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