Central Europe circa 2021, 76 years after the Churchill Plan
Posted Aug 19, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC
1.8K77
There's no way that Germany lasts 76 years without unifying again. Especially with the USSR collapsing.
120
In a case if Danube States and North Germany had different economic systems, I can see a situation, where they don't unite because of big differences in wealth, especially that in this world in size they more equal, than in our world and bigger than Eastern Germany.
Like many people in South Korea today are against reunification of Koreas, because it would be very bad for southern economy (especially in the short run)
82
Sure, but under the Churchill Plan Europe would be under British-French-American domination (Operation Unthinkable), and the Soviets would be pushed back to Russia. So I wouldn't think the economic systems between the Germanies would be too different.
40
Germany spent an unholy amount of money to reunite historically, I don't think they'd flinch at paying whatever necessary to unite again. Especially since the Hungarians will be chafing under German rule and bring to get out.
21
A similar issue with Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. NI is just so small and was designed to be a region reliant on the rest of the UK.
It has limited ability to generate rather than be a drain, and the RoI would not be able to afford the place.
That, plus the fact that many citizens of RoI just see NI as far too toxic!
7
Between the Danube and North sure (especially considering only south germany and maybe austria would be included meaning you need to split another country). But the Rhine and North? No way. The Rhine is far too economically powerful for the North to pass up and the Rhine would get access to far bigger markets and economic scale
1
You underestimate the desire of Germans to be unified. Just like east and west German unified even though they had different economies/ideologies and there was a huge difference in wealth between them. Germany has spent most of its time apart, it is one piece and you can't divide it. You can't divide it! Dear Lord, what have the allies done?! Where is South Tyrol? Where is Königsberg and Ostpreußen? Oh my God, why can't we Anschluss Austria? Why did the allies put it in Austrias Constitution that they weren't allowed to be part of the Reich again. Oh god...
Germania seis Parier et pro patria!
1
I'd imagine they'd be treaty bound to never unite, like austria and germany in otl
1
It's probably true, although in this case the separation would be based on significant pre-existing divergences. Southern Germany (especially Bavaria) is still a different society either in terms of religions, cultural norms, languages, or even political parties (the CDU/CSU split is sufficiently evocative). The "eastern" identity was much less strident and even then the simple fact of having the GDR existing for 50 years has created a large drift.
The main issue would definitely be Hungary but a southern German state could hold up for much longer, either as an USSR puppet (given the exacerbation of pre-existing cultural identities continuing to evolve in autarcia for half a century) or as an autonomous western state with the same destiny as IRL Austria or Bavarry (wealthy economy, european market integration which would maintain a lot of connections with the Northern German State without needing to reunify)
10
Well, Austria and Bavaria both had strong enough identity to form separate states (Austria did, of course, Bavaria probably could have). Hungary will probably not be happy in this union, but they'd like "reunification" even less.
Additionally, this divide (apart from Hungary nonsense) might be a more meaningful and less artificial one than the East-West; the Rhineland and South Germany have a history of being not-so happy under a Prussian-dominated united Germany. You might see a conservative Catholic south and a Protestant Social Democratic north, and a Rhineland that is Catholic but also fairly left-wing. Religious and ideological differences could perhaps be used to form distinct identities and make people less inclined to reunite.
5
The North German Republic and Rhennish Confederation would probably unify, Hungary would probably secede peacefully from the Union of Danube States similarly to the Czechoslovakia split, with the remainder continuing to exist as an independent state.
2
The German Empire is dead. Long live Austria-Hungary
116
Austria-Hungary-Bavaria-Baden-Wurtemberg
32
##GOTT ERHARLTE! FRANZ DEN KAISER! UNSER GUTEN KAISER FRANZ!
9
And why was he anschlussing Hungary into southern Germany?
45
-
he was Victorian-era man and had a soft spot for the old Austria-Hungary
-
he thought an independent Hungary would be too weak and would fall into Soviet domination, which is exactly what happened historically.
124
I mean don’t we all have a soft spot for Austria Hungary
53
Yeah, but we ended up allowing an independent Austria, which ended up being quite prosperous. If Uncle Joe or Khrushchev had decided to roll tanks on Vienna in 1958, would we have given them a fight? (I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, exactly.)
18
Austria ended up being useful as an East-West interchange because Austria was made officially neutral during the WW2 aftermath. Vienna itself was split into multiple occupied districts like Berlin, and for much of the Cold War Vienna was full of spies and commerce between the blocs.
10
he thought an independent Hungary would be too weak and would fall into Soviet domination, which is exactly what happened historically.
Which to be fair had nothing to do with Hungary being independent, but just the Soviets occupying their territory by the end of the war. And that's exactly why an union of southern Germany, Austria and Hungary wasn't gonna happen unless the US, UK and France would agree with such a state being aligned to the Soviets, and I can't imagine them in a million years agreeing to such a thing.
1
Why wouldn't they. Just slightly richer parts of Germany to Soviets in exchange for Eastern Germany+maybe Allied Poland
1
Borders France and Italy. Can't imagine the allies would enjoy having a Soviet puppet state right there.
2
Why First Vienna Award remained after WW2 (Slovak-Hungarian Border), and why not the second one (North-Transylvania)?
On the same logic as Hungary is not independent, why Slovakia is independent, why not united with Chech Republic or both with the Union of Danubian States?
1
On the same logic as Hungary is not independent, why Slovakia is independent, why not united with Chech Republic or both with the Union of Danubian States?
I didn't make this map, and neither did Churchill.
Churchill is believed to have favoured a Zapadaslavia, that is a union of Poland, Czechia and Slovakia.
1
I'm gonna be real I have no fucking idea what Churchill was thinking when making this plan originally, all I could really say is he either had a soft spot for Austria-Hungary or wanted to keep Hungary on a leash.
17
"its all the same" from the British perspective, i suppose...
-2†
its very weird seeing germany owning pomerania and silesia but not mazuria
40
Based
12
If Czechoslovakia can't stay together, I can't see the constituent states of the Danube tolerate being in a union.
9
Czechoslovakia was basically taken over by extreme nationalists who had never won a majority or even large representation in regional Diets in the Hapsburg empire, and then became a Soviet puppet state after 20ish years. I don't think you can really compare it to a hypothetical democratic central European union state. The US did okay having Anglos, Germans, Poles, and Hungarians all living together, there's no law of physics that mandates ethnostates.
13
Also: Czechs and Slovaks never really wanted to separate, it was a political decision.
8
Yes, there's no law demanding the existence of ethonstates, but the "Union of Danube States" is possibly the most artificial entity materialized out of nothing I've ever seen (besides some African states like the DRC). There's nothing besides a river united these states, unlike even Yugoslavia, which was linguistically united by the South Slavic languages. Cracks will quickly form with no national identity to speak of, democracy will just accelerate the breakup as the strong national identities of the constituent states will not be able to suppressed as they were in authoritarian states.
Besides, the US has so many ethnic groups living together because the US aggressively assimilates it's ethnic immigrants. How many American citizens can speak German, or Hungarian? I can't see a loose confederation doing any sort of thing like that.
2
If I had to guess in a realistic scenario Hungary would probably split off from the rest of the Danube states at some point whenever the allies stop caring enough to keep the union together, but I think the German states of this union have a good shot at actually staying united.
2
I don't see why that would happen. Hungarians would have equal rights as anyone else, nationalism was not the most popular of ideals in the postwar period, and the Danube Union would likely contribute much more into Hungary in terms of tax revenue than Hungary could raise on its own. There would be a radical ethnonationalist faction that probably would never represent more than 15% of Hungarians in the Danubian parliament.
1
Nationalist parties tend not to do very well in other democratic multiethnic states. In the Hapsburg era it was common for people to be bilingual or trilingual. I think the problem with this proposal is that the Danube Union is too small to get most of the benefit of larger multi-ethnic states, it would be more stable incorporating Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.
How many American citizens can speak German, or Hungarian?
How many speak Spanish?
1
Hey, blame Churchill. I do it all the time.
1
Someone watched the latest AlternateHistoryHub video.
7
yeah lol
7
The Union of Danube states seems like a pretty weird place to administer
4
Vic2 state borders I see
4
Hey Doc, can you take quick look at my confederation? It's looking a little... Rhein-ish.
3
I'm just going to ask how would the Confederation of the Rhine work. I think the Danubian state may work, but forcibly separating the Rhine from the rest of Germany when Germany is right next to it wouldn't work long term tho, especially when the Soviet Union is next door, which requires German industry. I hope in a world where England has more say something similar to this would exist except Northern Germany is in one piece and Prussia doesn't get its German inhabitants pogrommed out of existence.
3
Maybe include it into a future BeNeLux union? A proper Rhine Republic is an interesting concept at least...
1
Liechtenstein was turned into a lake?
3
just trolling
1
looks like churchill had a few too many at the pub
2
Wtf based Churchill?!
2
[deleted]
1
No way slovaks gain independence without Czech republic support like that. Czechoslovakia was a state of necessity for both Slovaks and Czechs.
More likely thing to happen is Czech republic joining the Austria together in a federative state which was supposed to happen if Czechoslovakia wasnt legitimized.
1
Something tells me, as much as I enjoy alternate histories, that Hungary going its own way and the East of the Oder going to Poland was inevitable.
Austria being reintegrated into Southern Germany is a genuinely intriguing concept though and seemed like a very realistic idea.
1
Many of Stalin's plans to divide Germany had them retain land east of the order it wasn't inevitable
1
He really wanted his East Poland though and that would've meant incorporating millions of Poles if he had nowhere else to put them.
1
He could resettle them in Poland or just deport them to Siberia which he did to many other minorities. Giving all of east Germany wasn't the only solution and it wasn't the best, since it crippled east Germany.
1
I think if East Germany kept its more natural borders then maybe Poland would have a more natural shape too, around the Vistula River Basin and East Prussia possibly.
1
Fuckers took southern slovakia. Cant have shit in Detroit
1
Oh dear god
1
This map was based off of Winston Churchills real plan to partition Germany following WW2, with a few slight changes. When I first saw this proposal I thought it was pretty funny, so I decided to spend a day making a quick map about it.
[deleted]
You Suck
What did they Say? They've deleted their comment.
https://removeddit.com/r/imaginarymaps/comments/p7bra8/central_europe_circa_2021_76_years_after_the/
it was a bot
[deleted]