Source
r/chaosmagick•
esthers

Carlos Castaneda and Chaos Magick

Guys and gals, just started reading Liber Null. So much of it is cribbed from Carlos Castaneda, I am surprised. I fucking love it because I feel like I get it already; already shut off the internal dialog (long ago) and have a quiet mind. Already can project intentions into dreams, and already I am detached from results and laugh at everything because of Don Juan’s teachings. I seriously think you all should read some Carlos Castaneda if you haven’t. So many parallels with “sorcery” and chaos magic.

It’s key that laughter is a tool to cement intentions. This is to negate the indulgences and wishes. The universe is a cosmic joke, and we are the punch line. Remember to laugh folks.

Let’s keep it interesting. Tell me what sources of knowledge you have tapped into that clicked immediately with Liber Null when you first read it. I think it’s fascinating that the book really does pull from so many places accurately. The understanding is there.

Posted Aug 29, 2021, 7:11 AM UTC · edited

5827
Appropriate-Pear4726•

I have a mixed relationship with Castaneda. Some of his work really resonated with me, but he’s a shady figure. It’s one of those truths mixed with a bunch of nonfiction. He basically created a cult of women followers and became addicted to attention from celebrities. He’s a fascinating figure, just needs to be approached with extreme skepticism

11
OmeCozcacuauhtli•

CC's work is a recipe book. Nothing more. Try the recipes. No need to delve into the author's personal history. It's not your business. Your business is improving. If the recipes help, great. But if you haven't tried the recipes your review is worthless. It's really that simple.

Edit: And I just have to add that it's very funny to hear anyone cautioning skepticism to Chaotes!

Have you not noticed we are just as apt to incorporate Superman or the Nina Turtles into their magic as they are to incorporate Castaneda, Jesus or John frikkin Lennon?

We were way past suspension of disbelief as soon as we started entertaining the concept of magic. Forget skepticism!

In chaos magic skepticism will never be your ally.

7
Early-Vegetable-5355•

in chaos magic generalizations are not your teacher. every practitioner has at least a right if not responsibility to inform themselves on the ideas and philosophies of anyone instructing others in the use of magic, if only to verify the ethics involved in the instruction

1
OmeCozcacuauhtli•

Fair. But this is not that.

This is someone who is not informed telling people who are informed that remaining uninformed is better or safer than finding out for yourself. That because he doesn't know you shouldn't either. That's nonsense.

I am saying what you're saying.

Look into it. Try it. Find out first hand! Don't believe armchair deniers who haven't even read all the books, much less attempted the work!

Contempt prior to investigation is more than useless. It's actively counterproductive.

And those who practice it really shouldn't be offering advice. That too is an ethics issue.

1
Early-Vegetable-5355•

As a skeptical person i feel i obtained a more succinct understanding of your position just by positing the original counterargument and reading your response.

as a magician, im tempted to remind you of the potential in any codified instruction to instill subconscious habits and behaviors to produce preferential results, especially in regards to interactions with other people. as OP stated, real powers are rare. its not ridiculous to say however that those who actively seek to produce magick in the world without proper attainment and/or observation can fall victim to the same errs in judgement and subsequent ethical mistakes, not only in their lives but in the impact their spirit has on the world. just like the coward who becomes a bully out of fear and insecurity, it's not hard to imagine that one can influence the minds and realities of others through occult means.

that being said, you're right. i can't say if the author in question is a nefarious black magician intent on creating a sex cult or anything like that until i actually read his work (in my opinion at least) and see how it influences others of like mind, circumstance, etc.

however you're incorrect in assuming it's unhelpful to voice skepticism in a conversation about the work of a practitioner of any kind of magic. the inquisitive mind grows through such discussion.

0
esthersOP•

When I got to the point in Liber Null about “not-thinking” it’s clear. This is a meditation, but changing random behaviors is “not-doing” in toltec sorcery. You decide to change random behaviors to thwart your desires and patterns. Erasing patterns is KEY to magic.

5
PrivateEducation•

why is erasing pattern key?

2
esthersOP•

It’s a backdoor into being in control of your behavior. You have to be able to get out of habits and change your patterns. It’s mentioned in the beginning of Liber Null and extensively in Castaneda’s work. Plus it has personally been one of the most helpful things to me, so maybe I am biased.

4
PrivateEducation•

interesting. thoughts on how to master patterns like some of the legends who only ate one food or wore one color clothes to eliminate the variables and distill down the important stuff

2
kiadragon•

I have read all of CC and Peter J Carroll. If Pete cribbed anyone it was Western Ceremonial Magick.

And chaos magick cribs from everyone.

What source of knowledge clicked? Instinct and then results.

5
esthersOP•

Specifically, shutting down the internal monologue for magical thought to happen, focusing on manifestation in dreams, changing ones patterns in trivial behaviors to control the self, all of these things and more are mentioned by Don Juan.

Ooh, and a big one is to laugh when one is trying to achieve results. Don told Carlos to laugh because if he didn’t at the right time he might die in a ritual (usually at the end), but I believe it was used as a shamanic tool just like it is in liber null. Don Juan was a trickster too and always laughing as a practical tool.

Maybe “cribbed” is harsh, but there is a huge influence there, and probably the reason Shamanism and Sorcery flow directly into the IOT in that flow chart moreso than other traditions (notice they bypass everything and get directly to the IOT).

4
bubbleofelephant•

The things in your first paragraph are found in practically every magical system.

Spare is a much larger influence on Liber Null than Castaneda.

1
TinkerPercept•

u/esthers

I read some of the Castaneda books, and did not hear Don Juan teach Carlos anything in particular except for his happy spot.

Perhaps I read over something, how did Juan teach Carlos to quiet his internal dialogue exactly?

3
esthersOP•

I would definitely recommend re-reading because shutting off the internal dialog is like repeated constantly in those books. It is the core concept in becoming a man of knowledge to Don Juan.

Quote:

“The internal dialogue is what grounds people in the daily world. The world is such and such or so and so, only because we talk to ourselves about its being such and such and so and so. The passageway into the world of shamans opens up after the warrior has learned to shut off his internal dialogue.”

Another quote:

“When a warrior learns to stop the internal dialogue, everything becomes possible; the most far-fetched schemes become attainable.”

There are possibly a hundred similar quotes in the books about this and “stopping the world”.

Those books are full of practical exercises in magick.

Caveat, I also fully believe Castaneda was full of shit and a fraudster. I think he studied shamanism very thoroughly though and invented a magical system that is phenomenal on his own and claimed he learned it from a “Toltec”.

10
littlethrowaway101•

There are possibly a hundred similar quotes in the books about this and “stopping the world”.

Those books are full of practical exercises in magick.

Caveat, I also fully believe Castaneda was full of shit and a fraudster. I think he studied shamanism very thoroughly though and invented a magical system that is phenomenal on his own and claimed he learned it from a “Toltec”.

Castañeda reminds me of Lobsang Rampa, after reading the first book i was like: - Oh, i know this isn't real, but it's fun.

2
esthersOP•

It’s a ton of fun. Some of it is useful too, and some of it could be harmful.

1
A_blindfox•

What book would you recommend for starting into Carlos Castañeda?

3
Spiritualfoenix•

His first book Yaqui way of knowledge is the best place to start. Imo. I read all his work sequentially.

7
esthersOP•

Journey to Ixtlan is where I started, and I definitely recommend it. Then The Second Ring of Power.

6
OmeCozcacuauhtli•

The Wheel of Time is best for an overview of the philosophical framework. The rest have the instructions and Magical Passes (books & video series) has the physical work.

3
OmeCozcacuauhtli•

Glad you saw this too and broached it. I think there's a lot of borrowing in both their work, but (unlike PJC), CC doesn't pretend to have invented any of the strategies himself. He is simply conveying what he was told (which is why I am baffled by the interest in the man as people overlook the actual instructions. That approach profoundly misses the point, but you can't mention CC without someone chiming in that they once saw a BBC show and are therefore an expert. But I digress.)

I am also very interested in the magical passes. That's something unique to Castaneda (or more correctly to that Toltec lineage, as you note). Most magical traditions are so interested in transcending reality that they ignore the body's wisdom and the practitioners are so often physically weak or unhealthy. I love that CC's teachings, like a few Eastern traditions, have a strong physical component. It's almost reminiscent of the Shaolin who, although they wouldn't call themselves a magical tradition, can perform truly astonishing feats of physical and mental acuity. That is a truly worthwhile goal.

3
esthersOP•

Yes, what makes me so interested in his work is how effective all of the techniques are. 99% of books written about spirituality tend to lack practical knowledge and techniques at all. His books and chaos magic are founded on them and testing everything yourself.

3
littlethrowaway101•

Reiki could help you ?

1
Vromies•

Yeah, i ve read all Castaneda's books, is there a specific one that you think has more chaos magic vibes? My personal favourite is Journey to ixtlan, that book really changed me.

2
esthersOP•

I would say that one probably has the most useful stuff in it. I would need to go back and brush up on the other books, but the foundations are built in Journey to Ixtlan.

2
styroshark•

liber null clicked immediately for me too. the entire concept of chaos made complete sense, and i rlly appreciate the focus on getting results and the accessibility of it as opposed to classical ceremonial magick. a lot of the concepts fit with what i already subconsciously believed and practiced. meditation is amazing but i struggle with quieting the mind, so it’s cool that liber null provides some strategies for working towards that.

if they’re that helpful then i’d like to read castaneda’s books eventually. it’s fascinating that there’s so many similarities lol. i’m not going to pretend to be an expert on him, but i’m a lil wary of him bc of the history behind his cult and seeing current followers tryna recruit ppl online (??). did his work connect to liber null in other ways than silencing the mind, and did he suggest any other techniques? i think the fact that so many traditions put such weight on the practice of meditation and clearing the mind is telling. liber null discusses the concept of coincidence and surely meditation has value since it’s practiced in every tradition. i’m glad you’re feeling everything click too bro

2
esthersOP•

Glad it clicked for you too. I do think the Castaneda books are worth reading, and I am well aware of the messed up stuff that he did later in life. There are many techniques that are similar and I mentioned a few in this thread. I think Liber Null taps into shamanic tradition, and so does so called “Toltec sorcery”, so there are lots of similarities.

Another one I haven’t mentioned is how to hold images in one’s mind and control dreams, and then eventually combine the concepts to create things in dreams AND hold them and focus on them. The concept of the will and the intent and how to refine them is heavily focused on too. I would maybe avoid some of the stuff about erasing ties to family as it seems cultish, but I think it does tie in with shamanic tradition where the shaman was an outsider. It’s all stuff you can pick and choose from if it strikes you as useful.

2
OmeCozcacuauhtli•

Any mention of Castaneda always leads to what I am naming the Castaneda Paradox of the believers and the naysayers.

The delicious irony that the believers think his books are true - he had experiences and wrote them down.

But the naysayers think that he wrote 12 books, invented an entire spiritual system, created a system of movement 5 times as complicated as the 108 movements of Tai Chi, had 3 simultaneous female lovers (which is considered bad for reasons I will never understand), and incorporated a publishing and teaching company too.

The believers think he's a scribe.

The naysayers think he's a God.

The Castaneda Paradox, kids. Tell your friends!

1