Matchup Trackers and the Matchmaking Algorithm

DISCUSSION

Mort’s announcement that riot is now allowing matchup trackers has sparked a lot of discussion about their value and the overall way match making works in a game of TFT. Mort’s comments as well as discussion in the AMA seem to indicate he is unhappy with the degree to which the matchmaking algorithm has been “solved”. He has also indicated that he would consider adding more randomness to it, as a way to force you to account for all 7 players instead of just the 3 you would to now.

I have a lot of thoughts on this but let’s start with the use of trackers. I am not going to deny that using a tracker gives you an advantage, yes it gives you no information that couldn’t be accomplished with a pen and paper or a notepad app. Hell it only confirms info you could theoretically remember. But it does make the process way simpler and does free up time that could be used for other things. Is it necessary to get better, absolutely not but it is a nice QOL addition? Should they be allowed? I think so, deck trackers have been used in Hearthstone forever and no one seems to care, which is providing a pretty similar service, but it would be nice if Riot was completely clear as to what is allowed and what isn’t. The best solution is to build tracking into the UI itself. Give everyone the info and just let people play. Riot did this with dragon timers, which might have been a small skill expression in very low Elo, but is it an interesting one? No. It feels like pointless busy work.

The fundamental problem here is that the match making algorithm was unnecessarily obfuscated from the start. There was no reason to ever pretend that it didn’t work exactly the way it does from the start. The idea that this is a “hidden mechanic” that people shouldn’t really have full understanding of makes no sense. Mort has talked about how the algorithm is “solved” but it just isn’t that complicated. You can’t face someone twice within 4 rounds (until people start dying). That’s it, its not complicated. If this was just told to players in say the tutorial or in a fact sheet provided by riot, then this would never have been an issue. We would all just know how it works. The problem comes from lower ELO players, simply not knowing that there is a, at least somewhat, deterministic way to see who you can fight each round. Therefore, there is this big “skill gap”, but rather than an interesting one you have to learn and get better at managing, it is a binary did you find out that there is an algorithm at all? but really is that the kind of thing that is interesting for people to learn? No it’s a check, did a friend tell you this when you learned the game or did you watch a YouTube video explaining it, this isn’t something you get better at, or can learn slowly. Take this barrier out of the game and just let people know that yes matchmaking works this way.

As for the matchmaking algorithm itself. The way that Mort has talked about adding to the randomness really scares me. First to make something absolutely clear, randomness is 100% necessary for TFT to function. Rather than taking way skill, much of the skill expression in TFT comes from managing randomness and accounting for the uncertainty it provides. I say to because this isn’t some rant about how RNG is bad and shouldn’t exist in a skill-based game, but rather to say that RNG should be used to facilitate skill expression. Mort’s comments scare me because, adding more RNG to matchmaking could easily take away skill rather than add to it, and that is the point where the randomness is bad.

The current system, ignoring the first 4 rounds and the extreme end game, has a fair amount of skill. You are accounting for 3 other players and need to maximize your change to win (or lose if streaking) against those 3 players. There is not time where you are guaranteed to fight someone, in fact there is never a time where you are more than 33% likely to face someone (again ignoring the super late game). Therefore, this idea that Mort has, where it is just an APM battle between 2 players is not something that is all that common. Yes, there are odd scenarios where 2 players are win streaking, and are laser focused on 1 possible fight, but that is rare, and requires both players to recognize that is the situation. (Again I am totally ignoring the late game, doing something about the actual 1v1 scenarios might be reasonable). With this, account for at most 3 system. You are forced, if you want to maximize the value of your positioning, to always think through the multiple people you can play. But you can make very real choices about what is the best way to play a particular situation. Is there 1 player in your pool who positioning can change the outcome of the fight? Great position around them and get a nice advantage. Odds aren’t bad that with 3 possible opponents, there is something you can do to really maximize you change of winning (or losing) all 3. Those small things add up and a skilled player will eek out advantages and see their win rate go up and their LP go up.

Let’s compare that with a hypothetical world where matchmaking was 100% random, you could, in theory play the same player every single match throughout the game. On paper this would require a ton of skill, every round you would need to account for all 7 boards rather than just 3, and a skillful player would pick the position that maximizes their chance to win against the most people. In practice, you would pick one general position and never move. Why, there is no way you as a player has time to scout all 7 people, process each of their boards and then make real positional adjustments. If each round lasted 5 minutes, sure? But 25 seconds not a chance.

On top of that, if positioning against 7 possible outcomes, the depth will almost certainly be removed. At least the way the game is designed now, there are too many positionally dependent units to account for. Diana, Vel’koz, Nocturn, Nunu, I could go on. All of these units require a decent amount of thought to play around. If you are looking at 3 players boards, ok fine. See what the biggest threat is and deal with that. Even if all 3 have very positional dependent boards, which is unlikely, you can reasonable look and say, player a is strongest, I should position around them, but hedge a little in order to not auto lose to player b. That is something you can process in a relatively short time. But with 7 there is just going to be too many. The change of playing any one player is now so low, 33% vs 14% that you just aren’t getting enough value to use specific position, as in positioning where you are stronger against 1 player but weaker against another. Sure there might be some very general things you can do, same side the 1 vel’koz player for instance, but 1 they could move, and 2 that implies there is only 1 vel’ and not 5 other boards with some big positioning threat. Better to just play the general all purpose position as on average, that will just be better.

Plus this isn’t a single player game. Everyone is moving their boards, with 3 potential opponents sure you can watch and make an educated guess as to where they will end up. But 7, again no just ignore it and hope for the best. Paradoxically By making you account for more players you are going end up accounting for less. Positioning is most fun when its subtle. Putting Lucian in this spot so it can get an angle to snipe the carry rather than getting stuck on a tank. That takes real experience to know how to do. But good luck finding moments like that if you need to look at all 7 players boards, with different types of carries, items etc.

Now this is obviously extreme, but it does to illustrate that a total lack of determinism in matchmaking takes away from the overall skill of the game. Most of the changes I’ve seen floated don’t really make sense. Keeping the system, we have but adding a small chance to get a totally random opponent, really does nothing. If the chance is low, then there really is no reason to ever think about it. Just play the same as now and hope you don’t get screwed by it. Since as proved above there is no way to properly position around 7 players, the objective right move is to simply ignore it you get no added value out of sweating it. Any basic expected value equation will say this, as at let’s say a 10% to give you a random opponent, you are only looking at a 1.4% change to play anyone not in your current pool. It would take a truly absurd scenario where you are actually getting value out of messing with your positioning for that 1.4% to face any 1 particular player. All you’ve done as add a small amount of variance to the game, which no one pays attention to. As I said before, RNG is there to facilitate skill, This would just be variance for the sake of variance, which why? If instead the chance was high, well then we have just moved into the scenario above, where seating positioning is meaningless and you should just pick the 1 position that is going to be generally good vs everything.

Is the current matchmaking system perfect, no but I hope if Riot decides to change it they do it in a way that add skill expression to the game and is upfront about what the new system is, rather than obfuscating it. People will figure it out, Competitive gamers are pretty good at tearing down an algorithm if it can give them an edge. Be upfront and we can discuss whether changes are good.

Posted Sep 21, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

3138
havokx9000:silv: Silver I | Hävók•

Where are the pictures in this book

35
ShiningStarITA:chal: Challenger•

Yeah I think 3 people is perfect, 4 would be very hard, but 5 or more then no reason to scout for positioning at all

17
maxintos:mast: Master•

Of course there is. What side the assasins are, how many thresh players are there to determine if you can corner your carry, which side is statistically best to put vel/zyra on, check for shrouds/zephyrs etc.

Also even if you have no idea who you will be fighting you still can check what are your auto lose/win matchups and focus on the ones where your positioning can actually make an impact.

2
hdmodeOP:diam: Diamond I•

That assumes all boards are static, there is no way to keep an eye on 7 other boards. And while yes it's true you can sometimes eliminate some boards for being auto win or lose, you already do that, so it still increases the things you have to account for dramatically. Look I'm not saying there won't be any situations where you can scout and see some reason to change, but with more matchups is going to becomes a much rarer situation and playing it "well" will lead to less of an advantage.

2
Ykarul:mast: Master | Riven is god•

You can always scout to position against the most dangerous one.

1
BrotherScarlet•

I feel like the issue is being oversimplified in two ways:

First, if the ultimate goal of the dev team was to just have full randomization of matchups, there aren't many reasons I can think of that they would not have just done it already. I also don't know that it gives enough credit to the team, as they are, historically, extremely good at finding interesting and indirect ways of fixing problems. If I had to guess, I would think that either some sort of fog of war idea is being developed (already mentioned by others in this thread and I believe Mort himself as a hypothetical), or we will get something MUCH more nuanced than just "all matches are fully random".

For example, maybe everyone starts with equal chance to be your opponent, but the chance to fight certain opponents is continually changed to accommodate how long it's been since you last fought them. I haven't sat down and mathed out a full system for this, but say, to simplify, you have 4 opponents. The first round you have a 25% chance of hitting opponents A, B, C, and D. Then, after you fight opponent A, next round your match-up probabilities look more like this: A - 10%, B, C, and D - 30% each. Now say you hit opponent B. Your third round possibilities might look like this: A - 15%, B - 10%, C and D - 37.5% each. Essentially, once you fight someone, your chance to match with them goes back to a base value (say 10%), and then increases steadily until you face them again, when it reduces back to base. This would mean there is value in remembering who you've matched with, but there is still always the chance you could get the same person multiple times in a row. However, the weight would always lie with those you have gone the longest without fighting. This keeps the full lobby relevant to track, but allows for prioritization. If this was the case, I would think an addition to the UI that would be really nice would just be a number by each portrait saying how many rounds have passed since you fought an opponent.

And second, I think there is an obscurity being made between removing skill expression and changing skill expression. Just because the match-up pattern changes does not mean skill goes away. The specific skill of scouting mid-game for specific boards goes away, but why does that mean there will be no skill at all regarding scouting? Wouldn't a requirement to pay attention to the full lobby encourage a better understanding of lobby pacing and the development of other's boards? As it stands now, you pay attention to the three boards you could fight, but potentially at the expense of ignoring the development of the rest of the lobby. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying myself, but I just don't understand why different inherently means bad.

Now even with this new framework, I get that the change would take away a mechanic some players have worked to get good at, and that does feel shitty. However, since fighting between top 4 players is something that will always happen, the skill isn't going away entirely, it is just being redefined in its importance.

(edit: formatting)

3
ShiningStarITA:chal: Challenger•

I understand your points, but I don't completely agree with your second one. I think at the moment there are two different type of scouting. One thing is scouting all lobby to see its pace, what comps people are going for, what items they're building, what comp are uncontested, and so on. This kind of scouting is not positioning related and it is something that you do usually either when you have dead moments, or when you need to take a decision. Like, should I build Dclaw? Let's scout and see how many people are going AP. Can I consider rerolling Yasuo? Let's scout and see how many people are rerolling, is there someone else holding my units, how would yasuo perform in this lobby? These stuff are already a very important skill expression and requires you to scout every player in the lobby at different times of the game.

Then another thing is the next fight-related scouting. This kind of scouting is what you do to take decision that impact your board only in the immediate future. Obviously this includes positioning, so scout your possible 3 opponents and position accordingly. However, it is not really limited to positioning. You can also scout your possible opponents and see if they are strong enough that you need to level (or if they're so strong that even levelling u won't kill a single unit anyway). Or, are most of my next opponents playing AP? Then I may replace my nautilus with a 3rd mystic and so on.

4
foxyllama8000:diam: Diamond IV | ME MECH•

Bro being able to going against the same player multiple turns in a row would just feel sooo bad though. It’s super unlikely, but it will definitely happen. Imagine it’s final 5 and you’re sitting comfortably at 35hp. Your board is easily a top 2 board, but one player hard counters you. You match up against him twice and go 5th. That’d be the biggest BG of all time

4
BrotherScarlet•

I'm not gunna lie, you're totally right about that. I'm not saying I have all the answers, maybe I sounded like I did, so my bad. I do think that, if there is something being lost from the design teams perspective by having the system solved, there are ways around some of these really bad scenarios when you alter the format. Maybe you can never fight the same person twice in a row until final three, but otherwise works similar to how I mentioned? Tons of design space to explore. Game design is a big fascination to me, so I get caught up in trying to problem solve these things to meet as many needs as possible, in this case the devs and the players. In the end I'm just spitballin

1
hdmodeOP:diam: Diamond I•

To be clear I brought up the idea of full randomness not because I think RIOT would implement it, but to illustrate making the algorithm less deterministic would be bad.

Looking at the system you describe, all that you have done with is add some unnecessary variance without adding anything of value in return. Really think through how this change would alter your decision making in the midgame. You are still most likely to face the players you haven't fight in a while, (which is true now) so that's who you play around. Nothing has changed, other than this small chance to get screwed (or rewarded). As I said, RNG works to facilitate decision making but this form of RNG doesn't.

I also didn't say their would be no skill in scouting, just less. Such a major part of midgame TFT is attempting to maintain streaks and positioning, leveling and rolling in order to do that. A good player can look at their pool of 3 opponents and say: I'm strong enough already I don't need to roll here to maintain streak, save some gold here. That gives them an advantage because they understood board strengths well enough. While that isn't completely removed with a full random, The ability to do it is greatly reduced as there just becomes too much to account for.

2
BrotherScarlet•

I apologize if I misrepresented or misunderstood your argument. I suppose the whole point I was trying to drive at (perhaps rather poorly) was that we don't necessarily understand the goals that Mort and the dev team have in mind for changing matchup assignment. The team always seems to have what is best for the game in mind, so I can't imagine the goal would be to eliminate skill expression unless there was something much greater to be gained. Unless we know what they hope to accomplish by changing things, I am inclined to give them benefit of the doubt until I see an actual product. It could turn out to be something that actually enriches skill expression through scouting and positioning. I have no idea how, but I also don't get paid to make games for millions of people for a living, so I lean towards trying to be curious rather than fearful. It could end up as another set five type fiasco, but I feel like if that's the case, they owned shadow items as a pretty big misstep, so I'd imagine they'd own any missteps here too.

1
hdmodeOP:diam: Diamond I•

I am simply going off the things Mort has said publicly where he has expressed frustration that the matchmaking algorithm has been solved and players can have a good idea of you they are going to face in the next rounds. I personally don't see this as a problem and am simply expression how I feel haphazard changes could easily hurt the game. I know that Riot would not intentional try to limit skill expression but this is a good example of a situation where things can get counter intuitive. While it might seem like, accounting for 7 boards takes more skill than 3. There are more factors to consider, It takes more time to process etc. In practice, due to time restraints and how scouting other boards work, It actually limits that skill. And this has been an issue I have seen with the development team, where they take actions that end up having the opposite effect.

1
BrotherScarlet•

No flame, can you give an example or two of times the dev team has achieved the opposite effect? I'm sure they exist, I'm just blanking beyond shadow items. I know they sometimes overshoot their goals, like the skirm nuke from early 5.0 and the yasuo animation change last patch, but opposite effect I'm having trouble with examples. I've also only been mainly involved since 4.0, so potentially limits my perspective.

I think I now am on board with the rest of your concerns, they make more sense to me now. I'm not sure if I fully share them, but I get where you're coming from.

1
BrotherScarlet•

Just before I get downvoted to obscurity, I want to clarify that I do understand the relevance of nuanced or micro positioning, and I think preserving that is important. I just feel the team is more than competent enough to find a solution that preserves that at least to some degree while also removing the skill check of match-up tracking without just adding an in game tracker.

1
MicroElf•

In my opinion it is almost always not good to have hidden rules. Doesn't really matter if algoritm is relatively easy or hard - it will be solved eventually. And in the end crucial "skill" required is just awarness (do you know this hidden rule or not).

The best solution is to make rules as simple and clear as possible for everyone. Then players can focus more on playing the game.

For example if color on minimap will change for your possible opponents on next round, then everybody from bronze to challenger will easily know currently hidden matchmaking rules without any pens, notepads or trackers.

1
hdmodeOP:diam: Diamond I•

I would agree that building a "tracker" in the UI would be the best fix here

1
Charuru•

The issue is that the current mechanic is not elegant. Random or deterministic is elegant and easy to explain to people. Semi-random with rules is annoying to explain and it adds interface complexity/busyness and just one more thing for newbies to learn. From a high elo gameplay perspective I agree it's a good middle solution but I still hate it for the first reason.

I prefer a totally random matchmaker, you'll just have to do less precise positioning early and have the positioning precision ramp up over time. That ramp is elegant and adds intensity to the gameplay as well which I like!

-1†
hdmodeOP:diam: Diamond I•

But this straight up takes a huge amount of skill expression out of the game. Now you cannot maximize your chance of maintaining a streak through carful positioning, and it isn't a slow ramp at all, you go from totally random and then when it hits the late game with only a few people you suddenly have to think about your positioning.

3
maxintos:mast: Master•

Of course you can. You can still focus on the strongest player boards and position for them and ignore the weak auto win boards. You can still position for that vel player and you can still make statistically right plays. If 5 carries are on the right side it's obviously the right play to put your diana/vel/shroud/zephyr to counter that. If there are many thresh players in the lobby you need a corner bait. If there is a lucian player you don't want him to have a clear direct path to your carry. etc. etc.

1
Charuru•

I disagree that you don't have to think about your positioning early, you just can't swap as easily. The skill is in knowing what to do not swapping quickly imo. High elo players already memorized what to do so you feel like the skill is just apming out the right thing vs the right opponent... but that's not the desirable skill TFT should be testing rather it's knowing how to position and that skill check will still be present and differentiates gold vs masters.

I don't disagree that there's a bit of skill test lost but it's not the skill we want to test... it's fine to lose it to gain the design elegance and rules simplification of random MM.

-2
hdmodeOP:diam: Diamond I•

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. In a world where your matchmaking is totally random, as I said above, you will not think about your positioning. You will pick a all purpose positioning and never change. once you hit the late game matchmaking will get less random simply because there will be less players alive meaning you will suddenly have to care because you can narrow your options down.

As for the APM thing. this is just not true to the game. Again there is no way to know exactly who you will play so the idea that its frantic apm swaping in 2-5 is not realistic. Not to mention if that is really the problem there are far more elegant ways to fix it (fog of war with 5 seconds left)

4
Charuru•

I actually like the fog of war idea tbh. The game would be better with it!

2
Charuru•

Picking an all-purpose positioning is skill and requires thinking about your positioning... It also changes based on composition, ie if the lobby plays assassins or not or thres or velkoz or not. You just won't need to swap it all the time if the lobby comp doesn't change, it's less work but not less skill (other than the skill of swapping).

0
foxyllama8000:diam: Diamond IV | ME MECH•

“Semi random with rules” is literally a core part of any variance game

3