How useful are negative level effects for players?

Righteous : Builds

We all know how painful negative levels are when we ourselves get afflicted with them. Especially at low levels, facing energy draining creatures can be quite a challenge.

I'd like to turn the table today and say: 'Don't ask what level drain does to you, ask what you can do to leveldrain!'

As a reference, from the pathfinder SRD:

Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.

For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature’s negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.

The most accessible way to inflict level drain on enemies would be enervation or its big sister, energy drain. The lich even gets a semi-passive level drain aura: Eyes of the Bodak.

Now my question: How useful are these spells in practice? And how do they compare to spells of the same level?

I'm currently playing a lich, and energy drain is right up my alley. I would love to RPly build a bit around that.

But even if we assume best rolls, the effect of a level 9 energy drain (-8 levels) would be, as far as I can see:

  • 40 hit points lost -- okay, nice, but a martial does more in a single round (if they can connect)

  • -8 penalty on ability checks -- I don't really see the practical benefit. The dazzling display spam from the Vavakia Vanguard should be affected (intimidate check), but they roll so high -- in the 50s -- that a 20% penalty would still mean that most of my party would not manage their saving throws. Athletics would be affected and put a penalty on how quickly they can climb out of a pit spell. But eh?

  • -8 levels on spells: OK, so drain doesn't remove prepared spells, the spells just become less effective, e.g. with a view to penetrating SR and saving throws. But again, if we take end-game mobs with 30+ levels, -8 means that they are still over most HD caps. Their spells might fail to stick more often though -- enough to justify the effort?

  • edit: I forgot the -8 to saving throws. This might indeed be a nice boon for us; -8 is significant for most enemies. Still: worth it?

  • The obvious negative level spam. But at 30 levels, it would still take 8 maximised enervates to down an enemy. Not really efficient.

I'm sure I'm missing something. Is there a way that these effects are useful for us players?

Posted Sep 23, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC · edited

1613
Soziele•

You want it for the spellcaster level, attack rolls, and saves. That is a huge increase to your chances to tag them with crowd control spells, and also does a lot to protect your party from damage. The HP damage is just the cherry on top, its nice but not the main event.

15
Danskoesterreich•

A maximized and empowered Enervation will cause 4+1d4/2 negative levels and can crit for double of that. Quicken + empower (with mythic metamagic) for another enervation 1d4+1d4/2, subject to crit.

Aeon allows for casting as move action, trickster allows for "roll 20 for 3 rounds".

Aeon could put out between 12 to 36 negative levels per round, depending on rolls.

Trickster produces 24 negative levels per round. Or you could just shield bash the enemy to death.

10
NotNullTerminatedOPCleric•

I entirely forgot about critting on touch attacks. Mmmm... juicy.

Good info, thanks!

1
Danskoesterreich•

it is definitely a quite niche strategy and requires quite some investment in the form of spell slots and metamagic feats. Eyes of the bodak is 1 level/round, that is not gonna change a lot given how quickly combat usually resolves.

But for certain "unhittable" AC monsters it might be one way to approach the fight.

3
WolfWhiteFireInquisitor•

What is that about Trickster being able to produce more negative levels? I am planning a Trickster playthrough next, and that sounds incredibly useful, but I can't think of which mythic trick would actually do that.

1
Danskoesterreich•

It is their level 7 spell that gives them a 20 on every roll for 3 rounds. Means all spells automatically crit.

2
Smirking_Knight•

It should also apply a penalty to attack rolls, which is pretty nice for those enemies with ridiculous BAB.

6
NotNullTerminatedOPCleric•

That is true -- and I forgot about that. Silly me. I'll add that into my OP after some replies have come in, so it's more easily accessible if others are looking for the same info. Thanks!

2
Sicuho•

It is. The malus to saving throw and attack is good, and the fact that they stack indefinitly (well, unitl death) make it one of the most spammable spell there is. The thing is that it isn't really worth it against something else than a boss, and bosses tend to be protected, and the protection against negative level is binary : it work or not. So against some bosses, you'll find yourself with a crit ray build without your mainattack.

2
WolfWhiteFireInquisitor•

Wouldn't ascendent element negative energy make sure it works even if the enemy would normally be immune?

2
Dreadmaker•

IMO you shouldn’t be casting enervation - kind of a waste - BUT - your aura - eyes of the bodak- is incredible. Passively draining a level from every enemy every round is insane, and it’s only a 4th level slot. It’s just part of my Normal pre-combat buff routine at this point, it’s so good. Worst case, it’s a fourth level slot. Best case, it’s a hard fight and it goes long, and over the course of that long fight you’re just gaining more and more advantage

2
maledictt•

Negative levels were terrifying in D&D 3.5 and lower as they required table rewrites because anything you had gained during those levels was gone. Pathfinder simplified it with a flat -5hp, -1 on D20 rolls, and -1 on level based variables (10d6 fireball to 9d6 fireball, etc..) with the added note that if your negative levels reach your total HD you die.

This makes them far less scary but some mobs have them on their attacks or AOE without action so it can add up quick. This game however is just rocket tag the game the movie. Stats, HD, and immunities are so bloated the entirety of the end game is just delete the enemies before they can delete you.

1
MateKiddletonRogue•

I use level drain as a debuff on particularly difficult to handle bosses/minibosses.

1