Source
r/Construction•
RebelPatterns

How do I deal with a hot head JM? (Apprentice)

Question

I for the life of me can't figure out why he still gets apprentices and hasn't found a way out of having one at my company. The guy is THE BIGGEST HOT HEAD I have had to deal with; he is notoriously hard to work with and yells and swears at a moments notice.

He has moved to going ballistic every time I mess up. I get it I fuck up things, I don't know shit right now. But the constant making a scene when I fuck things up is obnoxious.

I am here to learn man, and don't give a shit if he doesn't want me there. Thinking about asking my plumbing supervisor if there is another site because I am tired of wasting his man hours if he is just gonna scream at me.

Just looking for input if anybody else has been in my spot.

Posted Sep 28, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

118108
M80IWIronworker•

I for the life of me can't figure out why he still gets apprentices

Because they are cheaper, and a journeyman won't put up his bullshit.

The most valuable lesson you can learn is to stand up for yourself. Give it back to him just as hard as he gives it.

155
kburd907•

This!

30
HappyCanibal•

That's been my experience too. Had a guy always lay into me that he could get a dumb money to do my job and there was dozens of people that would like my job, so finally in one of his fits, I just walked away and started putting away my tools. When he came and asked me what the hell I was doing I asked him which person he wanted me to train, I wasn't gonna put up with this shit and if I was so poorly cut out for the job why the hell didn't he just fire me. Before he could answer I said I would save him the trouble and just walk. He quickly started apologizing and went on about trying to motovate me etc etc. He got a lot nicer after that. Turns out I was better then a dumb monkey. Still friends to this day, even though I've changed careers.

60
tb23tb23tb23•

So many people like that are only doing what they received. We do what we know.

23
HappyCanibal•

Couldn't agree more. I don't think it was done with intentional malice at all. At the same time it was completely over the top and unacceptable. One crap confrontation was all it took to put us on the same level and the relationship improved drastically afterwards. The old ways worked when they had to, now they are just holding back good people from teaching the new generation. Can't treat people verbally like shit day to day and expect compete with Microsoft and Amazon, especially when as much or more training is required by the trades these days. Always baffles me when the old timers are like, "why is there no new guys?" and then go throw the apprentices lunch box in the ditch cuz its funny and happened to their buddy 30 years ago.

14
Jaimesonbnepia•

Monkeys

3
mantecastoroil•

That line of “I’m only trying to motivate you” is toxic af.

4
Fabulous_Ad9516•

Yeah but, that’s a slippery slope. He has knowledge and experience, he is holding those things hostage. If you fight back you will lose and end up quitting. Don’t be a punching bag but learn to stand up for yourself with a strategy. You already know this guys play on every issue- he’s going on tilt. Try to play him differently. Or quit.

12
TheFailTech•

No shortage of jobs right now. There are better journeymen to train under. No reason to put up with shit.

27
drot525•

He's not the only fish in the sea. If he's withholding training then fuck him, you're better off leaving. You're not getting a fair shake. The job of an apprentice is LESS MONEY for ON THE JOB TRAINING. They have to train you, then they can berate you on speed, quality, etc. Apprentices aren't like mushrooms, apprentices don't grow well if you keep them in the dark.

15
davy_crockett_slayer•

Learning from someone abusive is a failing strategy unless there are no other options. Luckily for OP, there's a trades shortage right now.

8
[deleted]•

[deleted]

2
SlippedDiscDrive•

I second this. The first time I put my tools down and said “fuck you then” was a turning point. It took a long time to get the gusto to say that but I was also at my wits end of biting my tongue.

Just be prepared for repercussions.

9
88Tygon88•

This is the most Important thing. There are 2 reasons guys are like that. They don't know any better and need to be pushed back against. This will probably endear them to you more in my experience. Or they are just a cunt in witch case it just feels good to tell them off. But again they will think twice before belittling you again because they are just grown up school bullies. Edit: trades men can't always spell great....

8
Sko-isles•

Also if your foreman is cool and not a rat tell him he’s hard to work with he’s not teaching me anything. There are more cool guys than dicks in my experience

5
[deleted]•

[deleted]

3
Buffalo-Castle•

Life's too short to waste with such people.

95
[deleted]•

This. Ask someone in a more senior position for a different partner, or a transfer to a different site. There is no reason to have to deal with such people for extended periods of time. A foreman, HR, etc are good to reach out to in this case.

36
theferalturtle•

Had a journeyman beat up another apprentice for changing the radio station once. Also launched 70lbs of steel elbow at me for some reason I can't remember. But he was the owners buddy so it was ok and he just got a reprimand.

21
drunk0Nwater•

You should’ve grabbed a piece of steel and beat him till he got the message! Unfortunately dumbasses like that only understand with a little percussive persuasion

20
Misterstaberinde•

Press charges.

13
M80IWIronworker•

Just fight back.

5†
Crabbensmasher•

I wish I knew this when I was younger

5
frothy_pissington•

This business is full to the top with emotionally crippled, man children .....

People who;

  • are in over their heads themselves

  • have poor planning and communication skills

  • have issues in their past or current personal lives

  • are just purely ego driven assholes

Unfortunately, too many companies and even trade unions enable and protect these people at the expense of everyone else and the jobs.

Best I can say is show up every day, on time, with your tools, ready to work . If the guy keeps blowing at you, you can try talking to him and explaining that you are trying and the yelling needs to stop, or you can try talking to a foreman, super, or your BA.

You may just need to change companies.

41
niesz•

Yup. He sounds abusive. If management isn't willing to deal with it, I'd start looking for another company.

10
RebelPatternsOP•

He is an old school dude not old but learned old school, it is just sometimes cranked to 18.

I show up 15 mins early to open the gameboxes and get everything ready and moved to the area that we are working in, and try when we move to a new area to have everything we need if it is a repeat of something we just worked on. I take time out to look at everything he just worked on and I just worked on.

I dunno, I think I am just beat up from a couple of fuck ups I did in a row, but my stomach can handle everything up to pulling out a crescant so I will tough it out till I quit making all the minor fuck ups. If it gets worse to where I dread work then yeah, I might escalate. Thanks man

8
drot525•

There ain't no more old school dudes working. Period. None. My cohort, late 40s to 50s running shit? We ain't old school. Old school is gone, buried, dead or 80-90 years old. Even the generation that trained mine? Not old school.

The new school is long long long time out and about. We're not doing it the unsafe way anymore. You can't sexually harass, or otherwise abuse each other. Can't be drunk at work anymore. Can't be high.

This dude is just an asshole.

7
RebelPatternsOP•

I feel like I needed this a bit too, realizing that as good of a plumber he is, he really isn't shit to me yet but a coworker.

3
drot525•

Is he a good plumber? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Maybe. But the cost of learning from him is too high. There's not extra money or respect or bonus earned from working with this guy.

3
tearjerkingpornoflic•

One thing I have learned when dealing with these types is to move past it. Something like “I know I have fucked up and I am sorry. I am now asking you how to fix this so we can move on. What are the next steps I need to take?” It’s a little bit like the talking past the sale selling technique. Your mileage may vary. The other thing these types want is to affect you emotionally so if you are just like “yep, it’s messed up” and just agree with them but also poker face them, go back to whistling while you work right after it can also stop them.

It’s like bully’s when you are young that you just agree with or don’t show any affect move onto someone else. Obviously moving onto someone else yourself is a better move but those are some ways that you can deal with guys like that as I have dealt with several. I don’t recommend this but one was a mate on a ship I worked on and I did kind of low key threaten him when he was blowing up at me. “I wonder how far I could chuck you off this deck,” he didn’t mess with me after that but he had also over stepped and had threatened physical stuff before though also in a joking manner. The point is that these guys are just the same old bullies all grown up and much of those tactics that worked on the playground also work now. Other employees would ask why these guys wouldn’t come at me like they did with everyone else and it was through these various tactics.

2
jack2124harp•

“Emotionally crippled man children!” So good and so true.

7
drot525•

Someone told me "adults are just tall children." And since then when I view people, that shit strikes me as true more and more.

2
M80IWIronworker•

This business is full to the top with emotionally crippled, man children .....

People who;

are in over their heads themselves

have poor planning and communication skills

have issues in their past or current personal lives

I'm not sure if you mean OP or his boss.

3
Fabulous_Ad9516•

Boss. OP is actually trying to learn two things. 1) new job skills 2) how to work with a difficult person. OP shows a lot of promise.

3
frothy_pissington•

I meant his boss/journeyman.

It sounds like simplistic psychology, but the longer I’m in the industry, the more I realize a lot of the cockiest, abrasive, angry people are really just putting up a front for their insecurities (either trade related or personal).

3
Fabulous_Ad9516•

Great advice!

1
skinisblackmetallicI-CIV|Carpenter•

There is no way I am going to be yelled and cursed at. I will give one, calm verbal warning, then I'm out. It's ridiculous, childish and unprofessional. There's plenty of work out there.

32
drot525•

Superintendent of one of my projects was yelling at me, well my back really. As soon as he started his shit, I said "that's problem for project management" and dipped out. idgaf. He said two magic words "contract" and "money" and as soon as it was outside my scope of work; means and methods, I'm out.

7
MrBanannasareyum•

What an odd thing for a super to be getting on to you about. I have minimal job site experience, but from what I saw, the super I interned under understood that the foreman and the rest of the guys in the field only cared about one thing: the work.

PM is the guy that you talk to about the money… weird.

3
drot525•

When he's angry he just goes nuclear. "I'll cancel your goddamn contract and get the non-union in here." Me, who's on a job from a PM who's been fired and been given orders from my bosses that sum up to: try to lose the least amount of money as you can, this job is a total dog. He missed x, y, z. No wonder we won "¯\_(ツ)_/¯" Getting tossed might be a money saver for the company.

3
MrBanannasareyum•

Aw man, that sounds like a nightmare. I still don’t get why the super would be upset about that, and it’s unacceptable for him to treat you like that…

As far as I understand it, the GC doesn’t lose any of that money if your company underbid, that comes out of your companies pocket.

What an asshole.

2
Fabulous_Ad9516•

Easy to say but hard to do if rent and car payment and kids, and…. Are all due.

2
f_o_t_a•

Don't quit before finding something else, but I guarantee you'll get hired somewhere after a few phone calls. I'm an investor and every contractor, literally every single one, has told me they're desperate for help.

5
skinisblackmetallicI-CIV|Carpenter•

Emergency fund.. but I get it. I've been in a bind before.

2
croutonianemperorSuperintendent•

As a gc super i stick my neck in to this dynamic all the time. If its a subcontractor i dont care: i dont allow bullying. Its the one time i dony hesitate to pull the "prime contractor" card because i know from experience how much it sucks having your livlihood attached to a bully. When they give me the "kids today" crap i say hes here, on the job, doing this work like us, and that means he/she is a good egg, and we need them more than they need is. Its true: we need apprentices to be on track/training to replace our dinosaurs really badly.

27
drot525•

Yep. I hear that shit about the "kids today" all the time. It was bullshit then. It's bullshit now. Every gen talks trash about the gens behind them. I aspire to not be that guy. I work every day with some amazing teens, 20/30somethings, all ages. If they're working with us, then they're one of us. They've literally voted with their feet, they're standing with you. Stand with them.

Folks we don't fix America until we bring "Solidarity" back. Find the most common ground you can with your friends, neighbors, coworkers, employers, even if it's not much, but stand together on those issues. Sometimes that changes from relationship to relationship. When I'm with my crews, it's us vs the company. I'm going to do whatever I have to keep them safe, and productive. We work for a living, never going to be married to any company. Part of the trade. But when I'm representing the company in a meeting, my common ground with management, is "we gotta make money and not lose money." That's plenty big enough for us to stand together on. They can't pay me if we don't make money.

14
japroct•

I worked my way up through residential construction fast, and still carry my GC licence of over 30 years. Early on, I learned to teach people while respecting them. This asshole you deal with hasn't. File a complaint against him for harassment. Simply put: he has the right to correct you and bitch about wasted time, that's his job to an extent, but he doesn't have any right or privilege to do so in front of others. That's humiliation---and that is verbal abuse. Set his dick straight and make your own life a bit more livable. Being a supervisor is being a TEACHER, especially is construction where you learn solely from doing a job and advice from experienced senior workers. I have actually pulled supervisors aside and told them if they talked to me the way I heard them screaming to others I would kick their ass right there and then. So don't be a push over, stand your ground. File a complaint and go over this assholes head...you deserve better.

23
drot525•

Being a journeyman is being a teacher. Being a foreman or general foreman is being a coach.

2
japroct•

Who are you leading if nobody will follow you there bud? Did you scream at your kid "I said get up and fucking walk!!!! And I mean now damn it!!!!"?....or did you guide them through it? Like I said, if you talked that way to me you would have woken up on your back and I would have gladly been unemployed. Life is too short to put up with shit from your bosses.

1
drot525•

Needs more exclamation points. We're not arguing. Not every comment in reply to you is a personal affront. Chill.

2
RedNGold415•

Sorry pal. Keep doing your best and you will be rewarded. Forget this dude.

15
xbetterdayz•

I had to deal with one of them the first time I got an apprenticeship. The best thing you can do is leave because there are better JM out there who will teach you without needing to shout at you all the time.

It's hard to quit because you may have never done one before but it sounds like the best thing you can do.

12
Dicks4hir3•

Had a JM freak out on me that I wasn’t working 30 minutes before my start time. I told him I will work when I am being paid. He proceeded to try fucking with me for the next 2 hours. After the 8th water bottle I got him, I told him to come over. I said “Look, I got out of the military to avoid this fuck fuck bullshit you’re playing. I will do what you say in regards to work, but we are both grown ass men and you’re not going to treat me like shit because you’ve worked here longer.” No problems after that and he was actually a pretty good guy. So long story short, stand up for yourself. They’re journeymen, not gods.

12
[deleted]•

IF other people are seeing this and nothing is said, I'd be pissed. I'll run a journeyman off the job for talking to anyone like that.

Being unable to control impulses is what gets people hurt. Try to get put somewhere else.

10
WaytogolarryC-I|UA Steamfitter•

Tell him to cut the shit and stand up for yourself. If he reacts badly, tell your boss that you will not work with him anymore and would like to be moved. If he denys your request, quit.

People like that are all the same and will ruin your work life because whatever shitty reason they have. You are not a slave and are not obligated to take unnecessary abuse. If things are fucked, you CAN quit.

9
maddwarfmatt•

Let me give some commentary on my opinion of society instead. One of the biggest issues people face with their attitudes is that they haven't had a recent enough of an ass kicking.

8
TheTravelingTitan•

This is the most accurate statement I've heard all week.

5
frothy_pissington•

There is next to nothing worth actually physically fighting over on a job site.

Best approach it to confront them verbally, let higher ups know what’s up, and if need be find another job.

There’s ZERO chance I’d let someone stay on one of my jobs that threw a punch.

2
drot525•

Yep. You get on big jobs like an Intel chip fab? You raise your voice in an aggressive tone of voice, they'll send BOTH parties down the road, never to return to Intel anywhere worldwide. Arguing? It's over. Sort it the fuck out and move on. Carry no grudges. Shit's hard enough, hell life's hard enough. Most of us are just here on Earth because mom and dad fucked on night and now you gotta pay rent and work every day. Take it easier on each other. Don't be a doormat, but be an asshole either.

2
Fabulous_Ad9516•

We can’t just fight. Then that guy shows up with a gun. Then someone is dead. And all because we are passionate about our work/ trades.

1
tehralph•

Yell and swear back. Whenever he yells anything just yell random crap over him until he shuts up.

7
Coolace34715•

He's a bully and you need to stand up to him. Tell him to fuck off and eat shit.

7
Pilebut1•

Tell your supervisor you refuse to work with him. You may not be the first. You’re an apprentice, not a bitch or doormat

4
MAGALITHIC•

#1 The thing that ALWAYS works for me is humiliation. Humiliate that man and make him realize that other people are aware he is mentally unwell and socially stunted.

"Look at you...throwing a tantrum like this."

"Get ahold of yourself for Christ's sake! We've got a job to do here!"

Basically, treat him like a scared soldier in WW1

#2 If you walk off the job then he is going to have to answer some questions.

#3 Accidents happen ALL THE TIME on the job.

4
drot525•

What you allow is what will continue. Stand up, bark back and tell that motherfucker to either treat you according to the Golden Rule, or stfu.

When I was a first year apprentice, a 19 yo kid in my apprenticeship class, had a JM yelling at him all the time. He whacked him with a shovel, not hard, like on the leg but enough to feel it, while the kid was down in the ditch digging out some underground shit (union plumbers.) You know what happened? He got ran off the job, maybe fired. You know what didn't happen? No one yelled at him again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Didn't lose his apprenticeship. I'm sure the JM gets laughed at about it every where he goes. lol.

3
xfiefax•

All I can say is it your unionized just call a ba and leave. I've been there done that best thing to do is leave. Your mental health is more important. I dealt with a shitty as journeyman then a terrible foreman all at the same time. Going home frustrated isn't worth it

3
PCNUT•

Ive been an apprentice sprinkler fitter comin up on 4 years in the union. Ive had one foreman pull this kinda shit with me. I had worked with him several times before and he always sang my praises but for whatever reason he wanted to be a dick back to back days.

He gave me a list of things to do, prep work. I finished all of it and then some so went outside to smoke waitin for him to come back. When he pulls in hes got his window down yelling at me for smoking on the job. I told him i did everything and was waiting for him to come back. He kept shit talkin the rest of the day here and there and i just ignored it.

Next day i pull into the jobsite and start walkin over to it as hes pulling up. Immediately he starts telling me im late. As hes still in his truck parking and im walking up with all my tools already. I argued with him pointing out that im here literally ready to work as hes still in his truck. He keeps carrying on saying he should send me home or what have you. I told him straight up if this is how youre gonna be today then fuck it send me home. He obviously doesnt but keeps goin on and on.

Keeps goin on about it as we are working. Im doing shit by myself that requires 2 people but he doesnt want to have someone else help me. Still yellin at me. I just started askin him in front of all the other dudes if he was bullied in highschool or somethin. Told him that he cant one day say how im an awesome worker and thinks highly of me then the next treat me like some green moron. He finally shut the fuck up and later was like "i was just messin with you".

He ended up gettin fired or stealin hours.

3
StoicalStateCarpenter•

You have to figure out if it's you, or him honestly.

Everyone makes mistakes in the beginning, JM some tend to forget that, and get frustrated because they forget the struggle, and have their own set of pressure/requirements from the boss.

Are you repeating the same mistakes, are you not retaining the info?

Is he moving to quickly (sometimes it's necessary), yelling at you for stupid things? Is he a decent guy when not working, or does he walk around like an asshole all the time?

If it's you, this company may not be the right one for you to learn with, and that's okay. You have to find the right people. Unfortunately In the trades you'll find a lot of riff raff and people that don't work well with others.

On the other hand if this guy is just an ass to be an ass you gotta stand up to him. Call him out, treat him the same way he treats you. I've had to do this personally with a couple of guys in the past. Now obviously this can cause a confrontation, and some of these guys just want to fight so be careful. If he's not going to respect you and talk to you like a human he can get fucked.

If you have respectfully told him what's up and he's still being a douche, talk to management to be put on another site. If that can't be done, leave. Life's to short to be working with a miserable cunt 40+ hours a week.

Construction companies are a dime a dozen and there's always work, especially once you get your skill.

Keep your head high kid.

3