the likelihood of the roc peacefully joining with the prc via economic dominance

Educational :jiangwut:

i've often heard that once the prc's economy is large and strong enough, the roc would eventually willingly join. i haven't been convinced. the trend has been just the opposite - as the prc's economy has grown, the roc has become more and more pro-independence than ever before.

u/WheelCee summed it up in a comment, which i will share here.

I want to dispel this notion of "economic reunification". There is no possibility of reunification with Taiwan without force, or at least the threat of force. None. Let that sink in.

There is a common belief that as China grows in economic power, the people of Taiwan will just voluntarily want to reunify with their motherland. What does the evidence say? As China has grown economically, Taiwanese have become more and more anti-China, especially the younger generation which will shape the future of Taiwanese politics. 72% of Taiwanese under 40 voted for Tsai in the last election.

Let's take a look at Taiwanese celebrities, Dee Hsu for example. These people love to make money off China's growing economy, but they support Taiwan as a separate country. How will China economically reunify people like her? All banning her from the mainland will do is make sure other celebrities are more discreet about their public opinions, while still making money off the mainland and secretly voting for people like Tsai. Every celebrity like her represents millions of Taiwanese fans who support her and think like she does.

To dispel this notion of economic reunification once and for all, let's take a look at Mongolia, which was part of China during the Qing dynasty. Mongolia's GDP per capita is about $4050, China's is about $8400, more than double Mongolia's. 88% of Mongolia's trade is with China, far exceeding Taiwan's 26%. Are Mongolians clamoring to be reunified with China?

Let's say China threatens to ban all trade with Taiwan unless they agree to reunify. How well have the pineapple and apple bans worked so far? Has the Taiwanese position on reunification budged at all due to these bans? All a total ban will accomplish is drive Taiwan to further diversify its export markets. It won't change their mind on reunification.

Peaceful reunification still has a chance, but it has to be backed up with the threat of force. There is no other way. That is the cold hard reality.

the threat of force, as it has been for all of human history, will be necessary. and as difficult as it may be for some to admit, a military invasion of tw is not yet in the prc's favour.

Posted Nov 15, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

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SuddenTale2984Ximp:ultratears:•

I believe in voluntary reunification. I think that two things are needed for it to happen, first China needs to be more advanced and developed than Taiwan, and more powerful than the US.

I think that once China becomes more developed, taiwanese will be attracted by China. China and Taiwan speaking the same language and being close makes it easy for culture to be shared.

Also, rn the investment rules are very strict for China in Taiwan, those could be eased in the future under a KMT gov.

It's pretty dumb but, a few years ago a Chinese TV show became very popular in Taiwan and the percentage of taiwanese people wanting reunification jumped. Then the Hong Kong riots happened and it went down again. It's as dumb as that. When China will have maglev trains going 600kmh and people having a higher standard of living etc, Taiwanese will look at China in awe.

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Quality_FunOP•

I think that once China becomes more developed, taiwanese will be attracted by China.

why? they're fine living on the island already, which is already developed. never underestimate how decades of animosity can foment dislike and hate.

let me reiterate:

the trend has been just the opposite - as the prc's economy has grown, the roc has become more and more pro-independence than ever before.

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SuddenTale2984Ximp:ultratears:•

Because the ROC sucks ass, wages are low with no opportunities and it's decaying and corrupt, and people over there, especially young people, hate that.

It's not about raw GDP numbers, it's about attractiveness. No taiwanese wants to be part of China when they see the pollution and things like that. But all of these things are temporary and will be dealt with.

China will have better social policies than Taiwan, better wages etc, meanwhile problems in Taiwan will accumulate without being dealt with as they do in all capitalist societies. China will have common prosperity and high technological and cultural development which will be very attractive for Taiwanese people living in a bleak decaying society.

You don't really believe in XJTOSWCCFANE do you ?

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Quality_FunOP•

they may hate the prc more.

It's not about raw GDP numbers, it's about attractiveness. No taiwanese wants to be part of China when they see the pollution and things like that. But all of these things are temporary and will be dealt with.

fair - but pollution or not, negative propaganda about the mainland will never, ever stop, and this will prevent many taiwanese from wanting to have anything to do with it.

this is also assuming that the roc doesn't manage to sort its issues out and start improving its standard of life.

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SuddenTale2984Ximp:ultratears:•

You really think the US will keep it's influence on the world forever, I don't. I think US influence will diminish, and Chinese influence will increase. I think that Taiwanese will consume more and more Chinese cultural products, and will want to live in China, they will be influenced by China, they will follow Chinese trends.

I don't see how the ROC can solve its problems, big companies have too much influence on their politics.

rn under Tsai, Taiwan is constantly trying to create scandals and frictions with China. That wouldn't be the case under a KMT gov.

But yeah I very firmly believe that voluntary reunification is possible, mainly because I firmly believe that China will develop and become more attractive in all respects, while the West will decay and will become less attractive.

Now if you don't believe in that, yeah I get why you think taiwanese will never want to be part of China.

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Taiwan will reunify with China when the US collapsed and is no longer interested in "defending" Taiwan in the future. Taiwan does not have the capability to defend itself from the Philippines or Japan's invasion as a sovereign nation.

Or the US can simply sell Taiwan off to China as a bargaining chip for some debt reduction by helping the reunification process.

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Quality_FunOP•

yes - the us is very relevant to this topic. i don't see it not defending the roc, though.

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You are assuming the US empire will last forever. Unless you think a balkanized US will still defend Taiwan.

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Quality_FunOP•

it's safe to believe that it still has decades left in its existence, and we can't just hope that the us collapses/disappears and call it a day, because it will still be around for a good while yet whether we like it or not.

you are assuming that the us empire won't last long enough to prevent unification at least in this lifetime.

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TserriednichHuiGuotoo simple, sometimes naive :jiangwow:•

And you are pretending like it won't be a miracle if the us survives another 10 years.

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Fodedor_de_Rabos•

I agree.

China is capable to reunify without war, but some kind of pressure and hybrid warfare will be necessary.

And it will certainly not be a "one struck deal". It will probably start with China pressuring Taiwan to agree to some kind of economic deal, and then things will slowly escalate towards total unification in the following decades.

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Quality_FunOP•

what pressure would this be? and how would unification result from this escalation?

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TserriednichHuiGuotoo simple, sometimes naive :jiangwow:•

a military invasion of tw is not yet in the prc's favour.

​

Why not?

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Quality_FunOP•

because its military is not yet as strong as the us's, which is the biggest threat. if military force must be used, it's best for the prc to wait two or so decades for it to become much stronger than it already is.

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TserriednichHuiGuotoo simple, sometimes naive :jiangwow:•

If you think the us is actually going to engage in war with a peer power and win you are an idiot.

You simply are too uninformed to talk about this subject, the us has lost to much weaker powers.

Your various posts and comments are suspicious in general, you always overestimate the us and its allies whilst underestimating China and its allies when China has continuously proven you people wrong.

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Quality_FunOP•

it's dangerous to assume that the us wouldn't. its presence in the region relies on the other countries believing that they can rely on the us for defense. even the prc clearly plans around the us doing so - why else would they be developing anti-ship missiles and strengthening its military?

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TserriednichHuiGuotoo simple, sometimes naive :jiangwow:•

Reread what I said.

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