Many people still in the dark over gas boilers, say MPs
bbc.co.uk/news/business-60235709
bbc.co.ukPosted Feb 9, 2022, 10:06 AM UTC
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bbc.co.ukthey really need to make sure new builds and large redevelopments are built with the modern options like heat pumps etc with effective insulation.
There's little to no point moving existing homes from gas to another source if the insulation part isn't dealt with first. In fact the insulation improvements would reduce gas usage by itself a lot.
16
I agree, but I would just add that the drive for insulation combined with hotter summers means that more people will turn to air conditioning solutions in the warmer months.
Some of these new builds are now so bloody hot in summer that it’s just unbearable, whereas an older house, like an Edwardian build, remains cool.
8
That's just because British people don't understand how to keep cool, and fling their windows open in the heat of the day.
Insulation works both ways. If the interior of your house is cool, insulation will keep it cool.
Open the windows at night - get insect screens to keep the bugs out - let the cool air in. Then, during the day, keep the windows shut, and use external shutters and shades to keep solar radiation out. Don't cook much hot food or heat too much water.
12
yeh that is a problem most certainly - I live in a house like this, i'm trying to get the wall that loses the most heat to get external insulation, but at the same time in summer its boiling but i've been working on testing different ways to get a nice breeze through with a small fan to aid this and it's been alright.
flats with either single windows or one wall with windows only is a a different kettle of fish
with the insulation and a heatpump, they can work in reverse also luckily :)
1
They're not in the dark, they just have no alternative you useless fucking suits.
Saying heat pumps is fine but nobody seems to want to talk about how people are to afford them, how they are to afford the massive upgrades necessary to their property and how we really, really need dirt cheap electricity. Given the UKGov show no sign of making electricity dirt cheap these MPs will need to explain how we move every single house in the UK away from gas/oil/lpg heating.
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They’re not practical for most people. Most people live in flats/terraced housing. They are expensive, large and noisy. No one wants them in their gardens.
For my house if I got one I know the neighbours would be pissed odd because they are so loud
1
No one wants them in their gardens
Not everywhere even has a garden, especially many flats
5
You're talking about air source heat pumps there and while they make a little noise it's not excessive.
Ground source nearly always better though and probably more suited to at least getting something approaching decent heat for the average UK house with lots of retrofitting. £10k boreholes though...
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Ah yes, because everyone has a garden for a ground source heat pump.
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A lot of the noise around them was to make Boris look good in the run up to COP26. The government will faff around for 5 years and hopefully realize communal heat pumps are the only way to make this work. Or they'll do what they did with Smart Meters and let the energy companies sort it out and end up with a disaster
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He's probably got friends in the heat pump industry.
7
These discussions do give me a wry chuckle, especially when I look at the VAT I'm paying on the insulation I am currently installing in an effort to be more energy efficient. I suppose I should be grateful though, if I was paying someone else to do the work I would also be paying VAT on that, so every cloud and all that.
MP's can say what they like, I'm convinced they will continue to fudge and edge round the issue till its blindingly obvious its too late, then sigh "oh well, we did our best".
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Removing VAT on green upgrades seems like a very obvious thing to do now we're outside the EU and instead Whitehall is stuck on schemes where the mark-ups of contractors or the faff make grants worth only a fraction of what they are compared to doing things yourself.
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Mr Jones said the government should also replace the failed Green Homes Grant – the scheme providing financial support for people to insulate their homes.
Yeah no shit. It was the most convoluted and useless scheme ever. Need new windows to keep the heat in? Not if it's any day other than the third Friday in February and you fully recant the macarena on your first try into the hotline.
It was designed to fail so they could get the optics of being "green" without paying the bill.
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Also just as insanely complicated for a company to cut certified as an installer for it.
2
To me, heat pumps feel more about keeping engineers busy and transferring the boiler industry to another model that has the same economic value and impact (while being only marginally better for the environment), rather than finding the most economic and most environmentally friendly method for heating and hot water.
While I agree that boilers are not a good solution at all, I believe there are many better methods already available for both heating and hot water (electric flow heaters, solar panels, infrared heaters, energy saving bulbs, modern insulation technologies, even something as simple as thicker carpets make a massive difference ...) that are less costly and don't need regular maintenace the way heat pumps do (they need regular check-ups and the gas, same as used in fridges and freezers, occasionally needs changing, so the boiler companies can charge people thousands for the pumps, another couple of hundreds for disposing of the boilers and then sell the same maintenance contracts and insurances that are currently offered for boilers).
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Heat pumps have a use in new builds that are designed for them, they arent much use if retrofitted into buildings without the insulation required to make them efficient. Electric heating has a long way to go before it can become the standard in homes
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I agree, there's no excuse not to use them in newbuild's providing the developers can be bothered to build them up to heat pump standards.
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Ground source heat pumps should also be more widely used in new builds and upgrades for district and block heating options
8
Don't they require more land to run the loop?
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They’ve worked out a plan they can make money with and dress up as green, like so much else of their response to climate change.
Funny how all the science says we just need to reduce consumption, and all their answers involve increasing production.
They just don’t understand - If we don’t regulate ourselves now, while we have choice, we will be regulated to without any choice, since all the options have gone.
But people still won’t believe that to reduce supply, you reduce demand, because they want an excuse to keep being part of the end of the world party the rich are throwing.
7
I see it exactly in the same way -- we cannot solve the problem of overconsumption by building and buying more things and different things. It's all about the holy economy and keeping the money spiral spiralling into infinity.
I always get sick when I hear people talking about 'growth' -- we don't need companies to 'grow' but to get to a sustainable level where everyone can make a reasonable living of their wage and keep it there.
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My flat doesn't have gas or a heat pump, we just have electric oil-filled radiators. It doesn't cost much at all to heat as we're well insulated and on the top floor. So yeah heat pumps do seem like a bit of a gimmick, that £5k grant could surely go a lot further in other ways.
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What peeves me is that we have the ability to produce lots of perfectly green electricity. While it's really cool that heat pumps give such insane efficiency, the reality is that our primary focus should be on electrical infrastructure and green generation.
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You're conflating energy sources, heating devices and insulation.
Heat pumps are an energy source - sure they use electricity but they return 3-4 times as much energy as you put in.
Electric flow heaters, infrared simply convert electrical energy into heat energy, therefore they are 3-4x as costly to run as heat pumps
Solar panels - produce electricity sure, but largely NOT when you need heating.
Given the price of gas is about 1/4 that of electricity, for people switching from gas-heated homes to electrically heated ones (not heat pump), they'd be looking at a huge increase in energy bills. A heat pump should in theory work out about the same running cost.
Granted, currently the costs of installing the first round of heat pumps are high when you factor in that the rads need to be changed and the insulation substantially upgraded. That may change though with newer designs - I've seen one design that is supposed to heat water to a much higher temperature meaning no need to change the radiators or run a separate hot-water tank.
Your comments about maintenance are right though - currently the shortage of heat pump engineers means that repair costs are high. That'll eventually change as the designs become more robust and more people are trained to maintain them.
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Heat pumps are an energy source - sure they use electricity but they return 3-4 times as much energy as you put in.
I think the first law of thermodynamics disagrees with you here...
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I suggest you look at how they work idiot.
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So for every Joule you put in they "create" 4J? Lol. Do you have a perpetual motion machine as well?
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I don't conflate these things, I have just listed measures that are, in my eyes, better for the environment compared to heat pumps, because they don't require production and purchase of a massive 'unit' outside every house.
It does not make much sense to produce energy (at a large initial cost and constant maintenance) while at the same time paying an electricity provider as well for doing the exact same thing. It would be better for the environment and everyones wallet if electricity providers were to provide fairly priced, environmentally friendly generated electricity instead of making people spend money on converting energy they have to buy into more energy.
This in combination with energy saving appliances would over time have much more positive impact on costs and environment.
-1†
I see, so your "solution" is simply "make electricity cheaper".
I wonder why nobody else thought of that?
FFS
3†
No it is not. I am just arguing that I do not think heat pumps solve anything except for the question where the companies that build them get their next tax-subsidised billion dollar profits from.
Spending 10k on a heat pump does not 'bring down' your energy price, it takes YEARS to ammortise a heat pump and that's before repair, insurance and maintenance costs kick in.
What I am saying is: Buying an expensive device DOES NOT save you money and producing hundreds of thousands of heat pumps is NOT good for the environment.
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They have a role to play but the installation and conversion costs are too much for most people. When our boiler gives up the ghost, I think we will probably use infrared panels, a couple of oil radiators and immersion heater for hot water. We are fortunate in that our house is already well insulated. We have already experienced this when our old boiler packed in and it was tolerable. Our main lounge was perfectly comfortable during the evenings. Our electric bill was manageable without the boiler for 3 months of the winter like that.
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What makes you think heat pumps aren't more environmentally friendly? They're about 3-4x as efficient as gas, so even on a pure gas powered grid they're about twice as environmentally friendly as a gas boiler. Given that our grid is about 40-50% zero carbon, it's clear that they have 3-4x better emissions.
0†
Looking at the big picture, they are neither economic nor very environmentally friendly -- even though they might in some aspects be better than other solutions, they are far from a 'good' one.
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Can you please backup your assertion with a justification?
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Well I just converted from oil to gas few months ago. I think I'm good for another 20 years or so.
Although now with new thermostat that manages boiler's flow temperature I can see how heat pumps can work. So apparently heat pumps run at very low flow temperatures of like 40C. My heating right now runs pretty much all the time during the day at 35C and this maintains perfectly stable indoor temperature of 20C.
Saying that, it stills need an hour or two in the morning of running at 60-70C to bring the house up from 16C to 20C, which is something heat pump can't do as far as I'm aware.
4
Politicians still unaware that:
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There is no workable alternative to gas boilers
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No one is actually doing anything about climate change so nothing will happen in 2030 except moving the target to 2040.
3
5 grand isn't much towards the cost of a heat pump. Cheapest are about 10 grand, IIRC.
ED: Then there's upgrading insulation.
3
Well, yes, you're right - I am unprepared because I haven't got tens of thousands to chuck on another solution which simply will not perform as well as a gas boiler, especially in an old house where the concept of contiunous, moderate, heat just isn't feasible.
No joke, much as I think this is right and the right thing to do, as it stands currently if such a deadline gets created I'll be getting a new boiler with a long warranty just before.
I'm in the same situation, it's not just the cost of swapping out the boiler for a heat pump but also the cost and disruption of insulating an older house up to modern standards (if that's even possible in all cases).
my parents would also need to replace every radiator for a larger one and some of them can't fit in the space under the windows they currently sit in.
Oh yeah that's a good point, old homes and their massive windows spanning from the ceiling to almost knee level.
https://group.vattenfall.com/uk/newsroom/pressreleases/2022/vattenfall-launches-heat-pump-solution-to-replace-gas-boilers
Keep an eye on this. If these work then a lot of the problems inherent with the currently available options go away.
While I read this with great interest the other week it turns out you need a gigantic 300L fancy water cylinder to work it and a lot of houses would have to have them on the ground floor because they are so heavy. Not sure everyone will find room. Currently insulating my 1940s house to the hilt in hope by the time the boiler dies it can cope with a heat pump with a smaller cylinder or that they have improved a bit and we can make it work.
That's interesting to see, will have to see what actually comes out.
The tech is getting better and better, I've got a heat pump currently getting installed but what was originally was proposed has been superseded.
I'm sure in 5 years mine will be inefficient and out of date
I believe there are some solutions on the market (very high surface area radiators in the same sizes as old style ones) to this issue which is very common but they aren't cheap.
Of course these details won't be talked about nor will the meagre grant offered to a select few cover this kind of huge expense.
I'm slowly trying to insulate our house at a rate of one room per year, it's a mid terrace two up two down single skin house built in 1860, I'm stripping out the horse hair lath & plaster and replacing it with celotex and cement board.
It's an absolute nightmare and costs a fortune, last year I spent 10days doing the bathroom, this year is the living room, next year is the stairs and landing, then the bedroom.
The family have to move out while I tetris our furniture and do the work, I can see why most people don't want to do it.
Can be a nightmare once it’s done too. After cavity wall my house has developed terrible damp. If I don’t heat it I need to redecorate and replace textiles because of the smell.
It was designed and built to have cavities.
When we bought the house it came with a certificate to say it had cavity wall insulation, it's a single skin building...
We only found that out after 2 years of living here, even the survey didn't pick it up.
Yep, not built to be retrofitted, no home replacement scheme likely either.
It's a problem and nobody wants to actually address it since eye watering expense
Used to work on insurance Jobs for properties . One of the biggest issue we had was damp cavity filled walls. Dehumidifierss, fans and ripping out walls to extract the cavity filling was a right stinky mess. I personally wouldn't have it done to my house. Once water has tracked its way into it,it's fucked without intervention.
A friend ripped out his kitchen to discover next doors cavity filling had found its way into his old blocked up chimney flue.
very much this. i live in a grade 2 listed building with enourmous sash windows. can't replace them with double glazing.
now fair enough if I wanted to put in some cheap crappy windows with plastic 'georgian' features that would be a no. but I see no point stopping me replacing them with size, style that matches what we've already got. I live on the 1st foor which is more like 1.5 floors due to ground floor height. you can only see them from the other side of the road. you'd be hard pressed to tell plastic from wood at that distance.
at least the front does have some nice pretty features. the rear is like looking at the back of an old factory. no architctural features at all. only overlooked by blocks of flats, nothing from any steet. can we change these? no. why ffs?
they want us to put DG inside the wooden windows. and they will tell us what type we can use (expensive spinning mounts). which will cost a fortune for the size (in is like 220x240). but on top of that, i'll still have the maintenance of the wooden windows, which cost us £6k last time. for the outsides to be painted. for me, 7 windows.
then how you going maintain the inside of the frames?
Folk will just end up with illegal set ups in their homes. There will be a whole black market dedicated to it.
Really? You have to be certified to work with gas boilers because do it wrong and it can be dangerous
People still risk DIYing it though.
Have you seen the state of some electrical installations in older homes? The cheapest way will always have merit.
I think (and I don't know) that gas could be a lot more dangerous. Maybe I'm wrong