Source
r/MtGHistoric•
EvaUnit007

I dont quite understand the social commentary when it comes to this format. "There's so much GY hate!"

Discussion

This is NOT a complaint about the meta or the archetypes! I'm just posting to create discussion.

While this is true, there is a lot of GY hate, the decks that still thrive.. rely on the graveyard. Should GY hate just.. be ignored? Phoenix.. doesnt care, they play enough creatures, it just shuts off the Phoenixes and Delirium. Crackle Father cares not what is exiled. Food.. Cat isnt their engine, Trail of Crumbs is and they just can instant speed their cat, aside from black Leyline and RIP.

I totally get the reasons to play Lantern and RIP and Go Blank.. And I will totally play them because I'm forced to.. but are they actually the answer? I mean, those are the only answers we have but they have tools to circumvent the hate. I get that the spikes and experts all agree we need to play these cards to stand toe to toe with these archetypes.. but is there anything else we may be missing? Are there cards the format just lacks to better combat them? The GY hate just really seems to shut down the half ass dredge cards Historic has, IMO.

I dont know, every few games against them I get a feels bad feeling when my GY hate just doesnt get there.

Thoughts? I'm not complaining about the archetypes or their power level, just opening up a discussion.

Posted Mar 23, 2022, 3:52 AM UTC

1216
Mitchell_S-Y•

GY hate doesn't always have to be a guaranteed roadblock to be justified.

Some times you just need that tempo swing to come out on top.

22
EvaUnit007OP•

That's what I'm asking. What kind of tempo tools do we have if GY hate can just be too late or ineffective? Are their tempo plays we could use in a SB plan instead of the traditional route? I dont think so but I was curious what others thought. Historic has probably the greatest GY hate, but it still seems to fall short sometimes.

3
Mitchell_S-Y•

You have to remember that magic is a game that is largely "random". If GY hate is too late, your unlucky and or didn't aggressively mulligan if it was that important.

Additionally if its ineffective then people need to reconsider what GY hate they are using and even if it is effective/impactful enough in a matchup to be boarded in?

Lastly this all comes down to the deck your running, you got removal, counter spells and or hand disruption? Then GY hate is going to help seal the deal against decks like UR Phoenix and Food.

7
DeeBoFour20•

That's just kind of the way it is. Graveyard hate alone will usually not win you a game unless you're facing something like dredge or reanimator (it's a thing in legacy, not so much in historic).

Most other decks are going to have a "fair" plan B and probably be less reliant on the graveyard post-board. You still want some hate in the sideboard but you can't rely on it to carry you so much. Depending on what you're playing, sometimes it's better to focus less on hate and be more proactive as well.

8
EvaUnit007OP•

Well that's kinda what I'm asking. How can I be more proactive? I mean, I guess my deck matters but it's just going to come down to "this just beats that," when I say what I'm currently playing. I'm playing Jund Lurrus. It's a fair deck, but it squeaks out wins and I like playing it, it's fun. I gave up on grinding rank, instead I want to play for fun. But, I do play GY hate in the SB and a few pieces main. I just feel like some games, my GY hate just doesnt matter. Maybe pivot from Lurrus to black Leyline game 2? I hate that idea. Was just curious if what other proactive or tempo related cards, in any archetype, not just Jund, that is better suited than the staples.

3
silverspnz•

Generally, I think GY hate should only be played main deck if it also contributes to your game plan. Play to win game 1, not to lose less to a theoretical opponent. I also try to ensure that my sideboard GY hate has at least some synergy, e.g. RIP useful for generating triggers in Enchantress decks.

8
Mobius_XVI•

Exactly! GY hate having synergy is something I think a lot of people miss. There's actually a decent amount of hate outside the standard Lantern and Relic. Creature decks can run Scavenging Ooze, Lion Sash, and Callous Bloodmage to name a few. Control has exile sweepers like Farewell, Anger of the Gods, and Divine Purge. There's also some reasonable exile spot removal like Flame Blessed Bolt, Vanishing Verse, and March of Otherworldly Light.

Remember, OP, your strategy to counter GY based decks doesn't have to be 'all-in' on a single piece of sideboard hate.

2
-mindtrix-•

I like Decks with Karn in BO1 and I usually pack both Cage and Tormods Crypt in the sideboard. It’s usually enough and if you play some mana rocks you usually get the hate online before the opponent do someting too nasty..

2
DudeofValor•

I second this. Been playing mono black artifacts and Karn has been a house vs gy strategies.

Advantage of BO1 is opponent packs less answers to your hate thus you can lock them out of games.

BO3, it’s a different kettle of fish.

1
Alikaoz•

Well, there's a lot of GY hate, so good decks need to make do without it, so it's more of a speedbump of varying height...
But, that's all it needs to be.

Most decks can make use of the turn or two gained by making your opponent stumble to further their own game plan.

1
sapereAudeAndStuff•

Sometimes it's annoying drawing RiP when the deck I'm playing against doesn't care about the GY, but the number of times I'm going "I need to draw RiP fast or I lose" is why I keep GY hate in my maindecks (sometimes -- some decks don't care as much, but if the deck isn't going very fast, it needs GY hate IMO).

I haven't had your experience where my GY hate is not enough to close out games -- I will say that Cage is significantly worse now that the Airship Rat combo is a thing, so it's pretty much Rest in Peace or the Lantern -- but normally when I stick a piece of GY hate I either get a concession or a few turns of my opponent saltily attempting to play followed by a concession.

1
Gauntlet_of_Might•

I mean, those are the only answers we have

Tormod's Crypt, Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus, Cling to Dust, Leyline of the Void just off the top of my head.

1
EvaUnit007OP•

Yeah. I said there was a lot of GY hate, sorry that I didnt list every single one. "Only" was a poor choice of wording on my part, since those are the predominate ones seen.

1
Gauntlet_of_Might•

I see Cage and Crypt all the time and it's only been the last few months that Cling has fallen out of favor.

I think when your entire thesis is "GY hate isn't good enough" you should be able to list the best examples.

1
gius98•

GY hate isn't supposed to be an autowin, it's supposed to disrupt their plan and make them less effective. You still need to play a game of magic to win.

1
DudeofValor•

I feel if your playing BO3 then main deck hate needs to be cards that are not just dead in certain matchups. Cards that cantrip or provide a threat are the best.

If it’s BO1 then you can use something that is more dedicated to locking the opponent out as opposing decks will run less answers.

Historic has many decks that rely on the GY and so I feel any decks needs to respect this otherwise it’s likely to lose.

If enough decks pack the hate, eventually GY decks become more of a liability thus the meta shifts.

1