Source
r/EldenRingLoreTalk•
ColdButts

Have very few people been talking to Melina at church Site of Graces?

Several “accepted” lore theories that seem to dominate the discussion are directly contradicted by what Melina says at some of these churches.

Saw a post where everyone was seemingly accepting of the “fact” that Radagan was always Marika. This is completely refuted by Marika herself, told through Melina at a church of Marika: “you are yet to become me. You are yet to become a god.”

Seems like some people have been mainlining item descriptions without thinking of some of the more Elden Ring-specific lore-delivery mechanisms.

Edit: can’t get Radahn off my mind. Meant Radagan***

Posted Apr 20, 2022, 3:02 PM UTC · edited

2149
Majorclementine07•

I think there’s a lot of reasons people won’t see half the dialogue. Whether it’s not actually resting at the grace, not seeing the option at the bottom etc. There’s places besides the churches where she has dialogue too as it is, I think when you touch the grace it should automatically have Melina speak to you. I ended up doing a deep dive online to try and find all her dialogues that I had missed. By the way, you mean Radagon not Radahn

10
ColdButtsOP•

I did. Thank you. Love that man.

And yeah she also appears, for example, at a totally random site of grace near where Morgott fights you on the road to Leyndell in the Altus Plateau. I myself didn’t know you could talk to her at Site of Graces at all until I watched Lobos play the game.

5
Majorclementine07•

We’re still kinda early in the game’s life cycle and it’s normal for lore enthusiasts (and especially more casual people to the lore) to miss things. I see a lot of misinformation be spread about the lore and be accepted. And people claimed to me that vaatividya never gets anything wrong and in his new video he at least addressed a couple things wrong with his last video towards the end which I respect. He edited the lore explained video to be shorter to be more correct, but the damage is already kinda done because of how many people watched the first one already and won’t dig much further. The older the game gets (and maybe dlc) the more concrete our understanding of the lore will become for people following lore closely

8
ColdButtsOP•

I kinda have a rule not to watch his videos. For one, I don’t like all the flowery language. I just want the info. And another, I almost always disagree with large chunks of what he’s saying. I believe the way he interprets things is largely fundamentally flawed. I still remember one of his first videos where he seemingly didn’t know what “annals” meant and that it was a specific battle or something. I have nothing against the man himself; he seems funny in streams. But… yeah not who I’d turn to for research.

5
Majorclementine07•

I just follow every loretuber I can find and take all of them with a grain of salt. There really is so many different channels and even twitter users doing lore for this game but people seem to think vaati is the ONLY one you should follow lol

3
WorkingWafer1653•

The point here is that in the early phase of every Lore hunt many people, even experienced lore hunters, make the mistake to focus on single elements instead of trying to figure out the whole. Focusing on a tree instead of seeing the forest so to speak.

Vaati is always been only the guy that takes the most strong theories on reddit without second guessing and making videos on them. At least he's intellectually honest and has admitted the mistake this time, I hope that after 5 From's game he has finally learned.

This time though the chances of making mistakes are much higher since ER's scope is huge. There are at least x3 times more things to keep in mind and consider compared to the other From's games.

1
Majorclementine07•

Which is fine, and he’s done a lot better of a job shouting other people out this time. My point is that the majority of people think you should follow Vaati and only Vaati because Vaati is never wrong whereas if you watch multiple people your knowledge will be less limited. Still speculation on a lot of points, sure but people have a hard time telling when Vaati is speculating/wrong as he’s their only source for anything. This is especially tunnel vision because Vaati on his own can only cover so many things before years have gone by

1
Jon_dArc•

I see nothing indicating that there was ever a time that there was a Radagon who was not Marika. The text, from the Queen’s Bedchamber:

おお、ラダゴンよ、黄金律の犬よ

Oh, Radagon, dog of (slave to) the Golden Order

お前はまだ、私ではない。まだ、神ではない

You are not yet me, not yet a god

さあ、共に砕けようぞ！我が半身よ！

Let us destroy/shatter together! My half-self/other half/part-self!

​

Now, there’s confusion because of what it means that Radagon is Marika—they’re the same in some sense, but it’s also made clear that in goals and motivations and probably also personality they’re more akin to two different people who just never show up at parties together. The sense I get is not that Marika is claiming that there’s some merger that’s only partly finished, but that Marika is self-actualized and acting independently on her internal motivations in a way that Radagon is not, because he’s still doing what the Golden Order tells him to. This text sounds like her chewing him out about that.

Now, the evidence is entirely circumstantial, but I’m partial to the theory that the Giants created Radagon by cursing Marika, splitting her into two-but-yet-one people. This also fits with him being less self-actualized, because he’s effectively younger.

So in short, I think Radagon was always Marika, but that Marika probably wasn’t always Radagon (or she existed before Radagon-who-is-Marika).

7
Specific_Conflict_58•

"Lord Radagon was a great champion, possessed of flowing red locks. He came to these lands at the head of a great golden host.." (copied and pasted this from fextralife wiki of Radagon. if anyone knows the actual source of this please tell me.)

the great golden host is the Elden beast. so while Radagon and Marika may not the same "person" they definitely came together with the Elden beast and they work together or used to? So I don't think the giants splitting them apart theory is right here.

we know both Marika and Radagon was sent to different places to conquer each of them. My theory is that these places are fundamentally different and thus required different approaches. For Marika faith was enough to subdue and conquer (most of where Marika reigned was full of magic in the school of dragon communion, golden order and dragon cult most incantations anyway.) But for Radagon, intelligence or rather treachery was required, since it was the mages.

I think you are right regarding that radagon wasn't always Marika, and Marika had a period that she was herself, since there are texts saying she was a Numen(literally meaning divine in latin, and that Numens come from outside the Lands Between) and also that she is an empyrean. and all empyrean are twins. so Radagon could be her twin all along.

it would seem the Marika came to the Lands Between as a Numen and then she was appointed empyrean and gained a twin.

an aside: Then there is the issue of who made the statues and who wrote that message when the statue changes. It seems convenient enough that the hint was right in front of the statue.

edit: misinterpreted the word "host"

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Jon_dArc•

After much searching, it turns out to be the dog in a hat himself, the insurmountable Turtle Pope. When asked about Radagon, he says:

・・・ラダゴン様、でございますか？ラダゴン様は、赤い髪をなびかせた、英雄でございました

Lord Radagon? He was a hero, with flowing (moving-like-water) red hair.

黄金樹の軍勢を率いてこの地を訪れ、しかし戦いの中でレナラ様と出会い

He came to this land (meaning Liurnia, not the Lands Between in general) leading the army of the Golden Tree (=Erd Tree), but met/encountered Renala in the midst of battle/war,

侵略の戦いを悔い、カーリアの女王たる彼女の伴侶となりました

and regretted his invasion (war of aggression), becoming consort to she who was Queen of the Carians.

・・・しかし、最初のエルデの王、ゴッドフレイが狭間を追放されたとき

…But, at the time when the first Lord of Erd Godfrey was driven from the Between-Place (Lands Between),

彼はレナラ様を捨て、黄金樹の王都に戻り、女王マリカの王配、二番目の夫となり

He abandoned Lady Renala, returned to the Capital of the Golden Tree, and became Queen Marika‘s second husband and King Consort.

・・・二人目の、エルデの王となったのです

…Became the second Lord of Erd.

​

So I don’t see the basis for bringing in the Elden Beast; it looks like it’s straightforwardly talking about the Royal Army.

I think I was going somewhere else with this as well, but it took me long enough to find the source that I’ve forgotten.

5
Ashen_Shroom•

A host refers to a large group of people, usually an army. Miriel is telling us that Radagon came to Liurnia leading a golden army.

3
alphonseharry•

I think Radagon and Marika is a situation like D and his brother (two bodies, one soul). There are repeated symbolism in this game.

3
RowanIsBae•

I agree with this take. I view radagon and Marika like personalities of a schizophrenic to some degree, but in this fantasy realm given their own bodies

Maybe Marika is the 'original' personality, but Radagon is both her and his own person too.

Maybe her plan was to split off to self rule and populate her lineage and remerge later, but radagon remained loyal to the golden order he found himself thrust into leadership capacity of

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triethan•

I'm diving into your comment history. I appreciate your comments.

1
Jon_dArc•

It’s a shallow history, don’t break your neck ;) but thanks!

1
BaconSoul•

I personally believe that the split between them occurred when Marika plunged to the depths of the golden order to figure out what the hell was wrong with it. She couldn’t do so while acting under its auspices and authority, so she made that part of herself (the part that follows the golden order’s will) into Radagon.

For one thing to return to something else, it must once have been a part of the the other thing.

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ColdButtsOP•

I believe there’s a lot of wishful thinking happening with that interpretation. Considering Occam’s razor and all: it would seem to me Radagan was merely a fairly powerful dogmatic believer in the golden order that Marika viewed as easily manipulatable. She pities him, seeing him as some boyscout that would do anything his master (the golden order) said without question. She is exploiting him. That’s why everyone is like “why would she marry a mere champion.” Cause she’s using him. She knew that good dick (Godfrey) (an actual Chad) was a threat and wouldn’t go along with her plans, so she went with the nerd down the street that you could sucker into mowing your lawn for free.

Radagan being a descendent of giants is interesting and I’ll probably look more into that.

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Jon_dArc•

That’s this line here:

お前はまだ、私ではない。まだ、神ではない

You are not yet me, not yet a god

It doesn’t say in no uncertain language what you claim it does. It states in distinctly uncertain language something that could be interpreted the way you did. Even ignoring the Giants-created-Radagon-by-cursing-Marika theory, there’s a problem: based on what she goes on to say, she’s saying this as she’s about to begin shattering the Ring (either directly with the hammer or possibly by setting in motion the Night of Treachery leading to hammertime), meaning that there isn’t time for Radagon to gain a reputation afterwards. If he’s literally not yet a god at that point, when does he have time to become known enough as a god to cause Gold Mask problems?

​

edit: this was a reply to a pre-edit response saying the text directly says Radagon was once not Marika. Will address post-edit separately.

Edit 2: at the moment at least the one clear thing I have is that I can’t see how a Radagon that was separate at any moderately advanced part of the timeline would make sense with Gold Mask short of Gold Mask going completely off the rails. Possibly more later.

7
quirkus23•

I agree with a lot of this. For me the simplest explanation is in what the game directly tells us. Radagon is Marika and she transforms into him in the boss fight. I like your giant curse idea. Mine is she is using Radagon as a persona to accomplish goals and provide cover for herself. She is a God and not bound to a single gender. We also know Radagon can teleport. We also know Marika seeks to learn the truth of the Golden Orders and she studies sorcery and the stars as Radagon. Perhaps the Fundamentalism was to act as a smokescreen to her true motives. The shattering literally shattered her into two opposing halves.

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ColdButtsOP•

Are you referring to Gold Mask’s quest as he’s overlooking the Erdtree in Leyndell? All he’s trying to figure out is “who is Marika,” and then we tell him she is Radagan. But this is all present-tense language. If you’re referring to something after that point in his quest then I’m unaware of it since I had a glitch where he went missing and haven’t finished the quest since.

0
Jon_dArc•

His quandary is that the Golden Order is fundamentally about Marika as the One God, but then Radagon comes up as a god, and two gods is irreconcilable. This means in-universe lore exists with Radagon having the stature of a god on similar footing with Marika, not the Demigods or even the God-People (Empyreans? I don’t have a good grasp of the translations used unless they’re spoken in dialogue a lot).

He’s able to resolve this when you tell him Radagon is Marika. If Radagon was a god before being Marika this wouldn’t have helped Gold Mask (again, outside the unsupported possibility that Gold Mask just goes off the rails). That means the lore calling Radagon a god happens while they’re one, but in your interpretation Radagon is still not a god right before Marika smashes the Ring and I just don’t see how god-Radagon lore gets created at that point.

Plus, Malenia and Mikela are children of a solitary god, not a god and a not-yet-a-god-not-yet-Marika, and wasn’t Marika’s Ring-smashing driven substantially by how they turned out?

2
Specific_Conflict_58•

it's the other way around, gold mask wanted to know who is Radagon. then he goes on to create a mending rune that eliminates the "fickleness of gods". not sure what it means yet.

1
NeuromancerNuclei•

Saw a post where everyone was seemingly accepting of the “fact” that Radagon was always Marika

This is a lore trap that I predicted the community would fall into, alongside theories like Radagon is Marikas split personality from DID.

I argued with someone here the other day who was convinced Radagon had Golden Hair and was cursed by the Giants to have Red Hair, simply because they heard it here enough, saw the fusion between Radagon and Marika in one of the trailers with blonde, and thought the description on the Giants whip was something interpretive

Theres really not a full picture of the lore yet until a DLC comes out imo, we'll probably be uncovering new lore and debunking fan theories for years

5
Ironyz•

I took that as meaning that he had yet to become her equal. This game is chock full of copies that have yet to become the equal of their blueprint, and Radagon seems to be another example of this.

When viewing it through the context of the alchemical Great Work, the description of the Giants Braid supports this. The final step before achieving the philosophers stone and thus the ability to create gold is called rubedo, or reddening. Marika is a philosophers stone and Radagon hates that he is not yet one. The red of his hair is a constant reminder of his relative imperfection next to his mother-self.

4
wangchangbackup•

There are pieces that go both ways. Enia says that every single demigod is "the direct offspring of Queen Marika." If Radagon's children with Rennala are "the direct offspring of Queen Marika," then it follows that Radagon was already Marika in some capacity — just not fully merged with her.

Too, the statue that reveals Radagon Is Marika was created BEFORE Radagon and Marika were merged into a single being. That happened when Marika was imprisoned in the Erdtree, but there was a time when Radagon and Marika both ruled in Leyndell. If a person who made a statue at that time was able to deduce that Radagon was Marika, then again he MUST have been Marika in some capacity BEFORE the two were merged by the Greater Will.

Personally I think the line about how Radagon is "yet to become" Marika could just as easily mean that Marika knows they will at one point be merged again, but it's very much open to interpretation.

It is likely one of those things they left open-ended on purpose — something FromSoft does very, very often. I think it's pretty condescending to come in talking about how all these blind item-description readers are "accepting" a "fact" without doing all their research and then presenting your opinion AS fact based on a single piece of dialogue.

3
alphonseharry•

I think Radagon and Marika is a situation like D and his brother (two bodies, one soul). There are repeated symbolism in this game.

2
cynicalsaint1•

... I mean ... in the EXACT SAME DIALOGUE you're claiming people aren't paying attention to she also explicitly refers to Radagon as "Mine other self" which leaves everything about the whole Marika/Radagon situation ambiguous as hell.

3
ColdButtsOP•

That is what significant others sometimes call each other. Could be it means otherwise, yes.

2
cynicalsaint1•

  1. I guess I've heard "My better half" before, but, "My other self?" yeah, there a bit of a distinction there.

  2. Even assuming it does make sense as a term of endearment, given the nature of their relationship and the fact that they seem pretty diametrically opposed to one another it wouldn't make a lot of sense for her to both be putting him down as a "leal hound of the Golden Order" while also lovingly referring to him as "Mine other self."

  3. All of this is just further proving my original point, which is that the nature of their relationship and how exactly they are the "same" is ambiguous as fuck, given the dialogue you're claiming clears it up.

2
Jon_dArc•

So the problem with translating that bit is that English doesn’t really use “other half”/“better half” for anything but endearment. In contrast, 半身 might be usable for endearment (though I don’t remember ever having seen it that way, and Sanseido Super Daijirin doesn’t offer it as a definition), but it’s used in contexts where it means literally “body half” all the time. It’s the base of “upper body”, “lower body”, “left side of the body”, “right side of the body”.

It doesn’t dispose of all other possibilities, especially if a merger is underway, but I think the translation offers more plausible arrangements than the original.

2
crayolaclock•

“you are yet to become me. You are yet to become a god.”

This line is not as definitive as you think it is, at least for me

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BoraNockstedt•

I think part of it is that if Radagon really isn’t Marika at all during the events in Liurnia then them being merged has almost no impact on anything so it’s very unsatisfactory.

Not to mention that in that same dialogue Marika calls Radagon her other half, it’s not exactly clear what «Thou'rt yet to become me» is supposed to mean.

2
ColdButtsOP•

But it does. By becoming both the queen and the consort (vessel of the Elden ring) herself, she has total control. Radagan is an easily manipulatable softboy which is why she chose him of all people to be the vessel. The golden order enacts its will through the Elden ring, so she chose a misguided champion and merged with him, controlling not only him but the Elden ring itself, stifling the influence of the golden order.

3
BoraNockstedt•

I don’t think that Radagon is totally controlled by Marika after they merged. Radagon tried to repair the Elden Ring after Marika broke it, and we fight him at the end whereas Marika seems to want us to defeat the Elden Beast since she tasked Hewg with making a weapon to kill a god.

2
ColdButtsOP•

I totally agree. An unsubstantiated just-for-fun thought I had was what if Radagan wasn’t as thoughtless as Marika thought, and knew the Elden Beast would trap Marika after shattering the ring, so he let it happen, knowing it would allow him the chance to kill the usurper (us), take our great runes, and repair the ring.

3
BoraNockstedt•

So you think the dialogue we¨'re discussing is kind of omnious, like "soon I'll have complete control of you nyeheheh", but then it backfires and Marika doesn't get as much control as she imagined? Marika says "Let us both be shattered" in this dialogue, is this then the shattering of the Elden Ring? The timeline to me seems weird.

1
sharfpang•

What makes these more interesting to me is what they say about Melina. Was she there, then, to hear that? Or did she learn that from some chronicles?

2
ColdButtsOP•

She says “spoken words of Marika linger here” or something like that. I imagine it’s like a literal spiritual echo that she can hear. Seems to be a lot of stuff like that in this game: the spirits of fallen warriors that continue to fight, and the echo of Loretta, for example.

1
Magnon•

I only talked to her a couple times, I didn't really look at the list of options at most sites of grace. Just sit down, level up, leave most of the time. If there was a bunch of times when I was supposed to talk to her, I missed them.

1
ColdButtsOP•

They are very missable. And some get locked out at arbitrary and non-arbitrary times. Melina actually leaves the player when they reach Leyndell Capital. Many people probably visited the capital city once and then went exploring the world before completing it, thereby losing any chance at seeing those dialog options. FWIW many churches with sites of grave have dialog options.

2
egotisticalstoic•

Yeah a lot of my friends did t notice the various opportunities you get to talk to Melina at graces. Same deal with Ranni's miniature doll.

1
tremorofforgery•

I don't think Marika's comment about "yet to become me" necessarily means one thing or the other. In the same conversation, she calls Radagon her "other self."

It could mean that she's telling Radagon he is yet to become the visible leader of the Golden Order. At the end of the game, we see Marika devoid of the Elden Ring and its grace, but it has been given to Radagon (even though they share the same body). Killing Radagon restores it to her, depending on which ending you choose.

So she could be saying to Radagon that, even though they share a body, he has yet to inherit the power of the Elden Ring.

1