Abortion kills human life, that is a biological fact.  There is an argument to be made as to when an unborn baby becomes a person, but if the martian rover found a nodule on mars that held a single cell that would divide and divide again and again and 40 weeks later from it were to spring out a creature with four limbs and two eyes science would say unequivocally that what inside that nodule is indeed life.

You need to expand on this bit:

>The very specific numbers, using this as an actual thing that should become law, is stupid. But it is comparable... *IF* you already accept all of the basic principles, assumptions, and priorities as the speaker.

If you don't than it doesn't compare at all. So... kinda what the point of statements like this? It's obviously not an actionable idea. It's obviously not persuasive at all. So why say shit like this? So that people who already agree with you can all say "Yeah! That totally **should** happen! Even though they probably don't actually believe it should happen, and unless they are *very stupid* don't think it actually would happen.

So, like, why? At best it's just feckless, impotent, self satisfied posturing

And not just her uterus - she is donating her *entire body* and it can permanently damage and kill her.

The very specific numbers, using this as an actual thing that should become law, is stupid. But it is comparable. 


A woman who isn’t allowed to abort is, essentially, donating their uterus for 9 months. There should not be a legal requirement to give up your body to another life. The only issue with this argument is that it sees the fetus as a human life which it isn’t

Yes, it is, if you feel it is acceptable to remove the bodily autonomy of others.

Does this actually seem like a reasonable, effective, and well thought out idea? Or are you just being kinda hyperbolic and reactionary?

As I said, you can tell the penny guy to get fucked because your right to bodily autonomy overrides his right to life. But the pro-lifer could turn around and say that you shouldn't have thrown the penny (had sex) in the first place.

If the fetus is in fact a person, then it is immoral to have sex without intending to keep the baby (it also would be immoral to have sex in general, because "fetuses are people" is an untenable position). It's engaging in a pleasurable activity, knowing that there is a small chance that this activity will *kill someone* who never consented to partake in it.

A woman wouldn't be punished for an abortion, but would be punished for having sex in the first place, which is much more draconian.

But a fetus is genetically different from the mother. While it is wholly dependent on the mother for survival, it is a different genetic being. 

You for example are wholly dependent on society for survival (I'm assuming) you don't make your clothes, mine the gas to heat your home, or grow the majority of the food you eat. If society decides you shouldn't be a part of it, would that be right?

The bodily autonomy portion is the paramount portion.  

The fetus cannot be transferred to anyone else.  A woman is forced to donate her life and organ function while pregnant.  It doesn't matter why she doesn't want to be pregnant, until that fetus can survive without her as its personal life support system, she should be able to choose to stop donating her organs.

The refutation a pro-lifer would give is that a pregnant woman is in part responsible for the existence of a fetus. The analogy wouldn't be being asked to donate organs out of the blue, but being asked to donate organs to remedy a situation you caused. If throw a penny off a skyscraper and it lands on someone, and only you can give them a blood transplant to save their life, you ought to do so.

Of course, you could argue that that guy can get fucked because bodily autonomy overrides it; but what if the pro-lifer then says that you should be punished not for refusing to donate blood, but for throwing the penny in the first place? The comparison is that if you believe that a fetus is a person, engaging in sex without the intent to keep the fetus is reckless endangerment. The pro-lifer would be in a position where casual sex is criminalized, which is bad optics, but ***if you truly believe that the fetus is a person***, logically consistent.

The way out of this is to ditch the bodily au

Consenting to sex is not the same as consenting to a pregnancy.  

>It's not that bodily autonomy is less important than saving lives. Their position is that "if there is a life that you created and already gave the tools needed to survive, it is immoral to strip it of them."

except they *don't* have the tools needed to survive, until viability.  A 8 week fetus cannot survive outside the mother.

>After all, bodily autonomy is nothing in comparison to the saving of another person, right?

Kinda missing the point. Which is odd. I would have thought that the fact that pro lifers *don't* advocate this, that would have tipped you off that your comparison doesn't work.

It's not that bodily autonomy is less important than saving lives. Their position is that "if there is a life that *you created* and *already gave* the tools needed to survive, it is immoral to strip it of them."

Now whether or not you agree with that position is immaterial here. Since that position is not at all represented or argued against in your post. You are arguing against a straw man.

So to modify your post to suit the actual argument being presented;

Pro lifers should be in favour of organ donors not being allowed to take their organs back when their actions are the cause of the recipient needing the organ in the first place.

No, it really isn't.  

No one *should* be required to do this, but if you think it is appropriate to require *women* to surrender bodily autonomy to "save a life", then you too should be forced to surrender bodily autonomy to "save a life".

Look, I'm pro-choice & this post is completely reactionary.

No one should be compelled to use or lend out any part of their body, either internal or external, for any reason.

This is a shitty comparison. A more apt analogy would be asking that each person who protests at a clinic must contribute a $2000 donation to each woman who wants to terminate a pregnancy.

If you are forcing someone to remain pregnant when they do not want to be, you are forcing the pregnancy.

But aside from that, why is terminating a pregnancy conceived during rape ok but terminating a pregnancy conceived during consensual sex wrong?

If it's a matter of "killing babies", then a "baby would be killed" no matter the circumstances of conception, so your point is moot.

If all you care about is the morality surrounding the conception, then you don't actually care about "killing babies", you just don't want women to have the same sexual freedom as men.

Stop using the term "kill the baby". It's a trigger statement & it may be how you feel, but that's not what actually takes place & you know it.

Having sex and not being able to kill the baby is not a forced pregnancy. A forced pregnancy is rape.

You are *forcing* a woman to carry a pregnancy.  If she doesn't want to be pregnant, it is forced pregnancy.

That’s not an apt comparison the pregnancy. There is a fundamental difference between *forcing* a procedure on someone, and simply *telling someone they can’t have* a procedure.

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>Banning abortion is not the same as a forced pregnancy. MOST abortions will be for women who have consensually engaged in an act that’s primary purpose is to get pregnant.

Do they want to be *pregnant*?  Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.  Its primary purpose is *not* to get pregnant, if it is not something the woman wants. 

If she doesn't want to be pregnant and is banned from ending the pregnancy, it is forced.

Banning abortion is not the same as a forced pregnancy. MOST abortions will be for women who have consensually engaged in an act that’s primary purpose is to get pregnant. 

Forced organ donation is not the same unless you somehow caused the person to be in need of the transplant but even that can be a stretch to make it comparable.

I mean, a society where everyone is a potential organ donor, nobody uses alcohol and drugs, and if you need it, you'll become donor recipient, seems like a better and healthier place than the one where none of that happens.

I agree, it shouldn't.  But forcing a person to be pregnant when they don't want to be shouldn't happen either.

There are many instances when abortion is necessary 
But this drastic step shouldn’t be used as birth control

Late abortions are not elective for "funsies".  They are delivery of a baby. It is difficult physically and emotionally and I've been involved in the process of evaluating women for late abortions, which has always been horrifying and 99.99% of the time happens with a *wanted* child.

If the woman doesn't want to be pregnant, she just delivers the baby at that point.  It is not dependent on the mother's life anymore, because it can be removed from the mother.

The biggest issue I find with this argument is that it can also be used to just as easily justify late-term pregnancy abortions. While still dependent on the mother's body to sustain its life, bodily autonomy dictates that the mother can still terminate the pregnancy. I'm assuming you're in favor of abortions regardless of the progress of the pregnancy?

Forced pregnancy?

I don't know anyone who supports forced pregnancy.

Oh we're talking about abortion. Damn, what a bad start.

Listen, just from how the CMV is phrased I know there's no way to change your mind.

If you want to hear the other party's perspective instead of attacking them, here it is:

"If you had consensual sex, got pregnant, and the pregnancy doesn't pose serious abnormal risks that would justify termination, you do not have the right to kill an innocent life. You had your choice when you (most likely) had unprotected sex."

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The people in power that create this force pregnancy law, are also the people that support force pregnancy. Those people in power won’t agree to laws that force themselves to donate organs, so who’s gonna put in those laws? 

Even if the organ donation law is made, how can the government force people to donate their organs? 

1. Those that do support forced pregnancy can just lie and say they don’t support it

2. Those that are banned from alcohol, can still get alcohol from other people and drink it

3. You’re not just forcing those people to donate, you’re also forcing health care workers to perform surgery and take care of patients that WILL fight back and struggle against restraint. Your new forced donation law puts MANY innocent health care workers at a HIGH risk of physical violence at work. Do you really want that to happen to them?

If you are forced to remain pregnant when you do not want to be, you are forcing pregnancy on people.

And women die and are permanently injured every year, giving birth. All of the donations listed are easily removed without negative permanent consequences.

People use BC and still get pregnant. Men stealth women and they get pregnant. Uneducated people used BC wrong and fall victim to a poor sex education system. Theyre consenting to sex not pregnancy the same way when you get in a car to drive somewhere you are not planning to get in an accident. It’s not simple. Men can just walk away but women do not have that right. It is a forced pregnancy if she is not allowed to terminate. It’s like if a child got pregnant due to miseducation and their parents did not allow them to abort, they are forcing them to stay pregnant against their will. Child birth can literally kill you and change your body forever.

>Especially since organ removal has far more negative effects on a person’s life than child birth does.

This isn't really true, at least in the US. The [maternal mortality rate](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020/maternal-mortality-rates-2020.htm) (risk of death because of pregnancy or childbirth) is roughly 24 per 100,000 births, and as high as 55 per 100,000 births for black patients or 108 per 100,000 births if the patient is over 40. In comparison, the [risk of death during an organ donation surgery](https://www.americantransplantfoundation.org/about-transplant/living-donation/about-living-donation/) is roughly 3 in 10,000, so 30 in 100,000. That's pretty comparable.

Long-term studies show the risk of follow-up kidney or liver problems after donations as only very slight increases compared with the general population. [Pregnancy comes with risks](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/01/24/686790727/fourth-trimester-problems-can-have-long-term-e

If they want to terminate the pregnancy and you force them not to do so, you are forcing them to stay pregnant. Forced pregnancy. 

Forced: meaning unwilling.
Pregnancy: the state of having a fetus growing inside you.

I have never heard of forced pregnancy.  Are you referring to pro-life?  (Except in the obvious case of rape) no one is forced to be pregnant.  You made a choice to not use birth control.  Abortion is not an acceptable form of birth control.  Don’t want a kid?  Use BC.  Simple.  You aren’t forced to be pregnant so why would you force organ donation as an equivalent?  Especially since organ removal has far more negative effects on a person’s life than child birth does.

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Screw organs! Make some fund for familes and abortion would be illegal IF incomes in that fund reach set ammount.

CMV: Everyone who supports forced pregnancy should be forced to donate organs while alive and dead.